Fullborn vs. 10th heightening vs. herald

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

You know this how? 

Because direct access to a Shard's power essentially doesn't have an upper limit, while using metals does.

(OK, there probably is still technically an upper limit, but it's going to be way higher than anything you can get out of a few ounces or pounds of metal.)

I really don't think Compounding is as unlimited as people tend to assume; we never see it pitted against other really powerful things. TLR is said to survive decapitation and being burned up by conventional fire, Miles survives a stick of dynamite at point blank range etc. But that's not really that much energy, and none of those things totally destroy the body.

I think the same applies to Compounding Speed, Strength, etc. It's really powerful compared to other things available on Scadrial at era 1/2 tech level, but I don't think it automatically wins against high-powered applications of Rosharan magic, or advanced technology (which is probably how it'll be kept under control in the later era Mistborn books).

5 hours ago, Karger said:

Remember compounding strength can get you to be like a hundred times as strong as you are normally.

Oh, probably more than that, but a hundred times strength isn't really that impressive on the scale I am talking.  A thunderclast is probably on the order of a hundred times human strength (actually probably more, even to move, they ought to weigh something like

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Are you saying that the Heralds could do 400 lashings around a large area(4 times gravity is about what you need to prevent a person from moving)? 

Oh probably, yeah.

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Cause if so I have serious questions about why the Heralds need help during the desolations.

Well they apparently fought several Desolations before the KR existed, so I mean, they were apparently fighting armies single-handedly.

But in terms of how they got killed, because they were fighting things like thunderclasts in large numbers, and their most powerful enemies (whatever the modern Fused were in those first Desolations) had a direct power feed from Odium.

Also, Desolations lasted a long time, and I don't think any of the Surgebinding powers give you an atium-equivalent. They could make mistakes, and they were fighting things that could smash them beyond what their imperfect Stormlight healing could fix* in an instant. Honestly, I think they had to be operating at these sorts of power levels for just 10 Heralds to be any use at all.

*Honorblades aren't as good at that as actual Nahel bonds...

[Karger he/him]

22 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well they apparently fought several Desolations before the KR existed, so I mean, they were apparently fighting armies single-handedly.

According to the histories pre desolation mankind had access to greater resources then modern Roshar and was capable of fielding large armies.

26 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But in terms of how they got killed, because they were fighting things like thunderclasts in large numbers, and their most powerful enemies (whatever the modern Fused were in those first Desolations) had a direct power feed from Odium.

The ancient fused also seem to have the same kind of power and its not like a Kaladin has that much trouble with them.

 

If they were that powerful then why where the desolations so bad?  Its not like the fused of thunderclasts have comperable power.  Kelek apparently has been killed by a thunderclast yet according to your beliefs his power level should let him turn the entire battlefield into mush so exactly how is a thunderclast going to get close?

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

According to the histories pre desolation mankind had access to greater resources then modern Roshar and was capable of fielding large armies.

Doesn't Taln say that often the Heralds had to teach humans how to make bronze? I think their resources were much more limited, though the Heraldic Epochs have become mythified in modern Rosharan (at least Vorin) culture.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

 

If they were that powerful then why where the desolations so bad?  Its not like the fused of thunderclasts have comperable power. 

 

Numbers. There were only 10 Heralds, not all of whom had the prime combat powers.

Individually they don't have comparable power, true, but a couple of Heralds vs 50 Fused or 500 Thunderclasts is a quite different picture.

And they couldn't be everywhere at once. They won the Desolations eventually, but Odium's forces could destroy unchecked anywhere that the Heralds weren't. (Bronze-age human forces, before KR, probably couldn't do very much to harm something like a Thunderclast, though they would have been effective against regular singers and - in sufficiently superior numbers - probably the Regals/forms of power).

The KR were founded "to offset the destruction of the Desolations". It's not that the Heralds were losing without them, it's that the world got torn up in the time it took to win.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Kelek apparently has been killed by a thunderclast yet according to your beliefs his power level should let him turn the entire battlefield into mush so exactly how is a thunderclast going to get close?

No, I wouldn't say that he could "turn the entire battlefield into mush". Kelek was the Willshaper Herald; his Surges were Transportation/Cohesion. Those don't give him large area destruction or immobilization powers the way Adhesion, Gravitation, or Division fueled with vast quantities of Stormlight might.

Kelek would still have had enormous physical abilities, with the Stormlight physical enhancements fueled by a direct feed from Honor... but thunderclasts are 30 foot stone monsters that can tear down fortified walls trivially. And we don't know how many thunderclasts it took to take him down. And his form of healing couldn't restore from an instant-death wound, which almost any hit from something that size would be.

The 4 Heralds with the prime battle powers probably were flattening whole battlefields full of enemies, but they were fighting a continent scale war against huge numbers, and they could still mess up and get killed - they had no atium equivalent.

[cometaryorbit]

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The bolded part is not accurate. An Allomancer’s Investiture level increases their efficiency with metals. Elend would get more power and a longer burn than Vin from the same amount of metal.

Hmm. Apparently, WOBs conflict on this issue. Here is the one I was thinking of:

mooglefrooglian

Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently?

Brandon Sanderson

Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

But there is also:

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Oversleep (paraphrased)

So there is some loss of power along the way? How do savants work into that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Savants can use it way more efficiently. They are more Connected to the Shard. Closer to Spiritual Realm.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

And:

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

Which seems to imply a third possibility, that 'normal' Allomantic strength differences don't impact power-per-mass, but savantism does. Hmmm...

Either way, I think the general point holds - even if there is some increase in efficiency, the upper end of Compounding is going to be set by the mass of metal available (both the amount in the stomach to burn, and the amount of metalminds).

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm. Apparently, WOBs conflict on this issue. Here is the one I was thinking of:

mooglefrooglian

Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently?

Brandon Sanderson

Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn.

It seems like he is talking about flaring here. The faster someone burns their metal the more power they get from it per unit of time. His answer actually feels like he was dodging the question.

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Oversleep (paraphrased)

Allomantic strength. There are stronger Allomancers, they can burn metals faster, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they can also squeeze more power out of it. They can use it more efficiently.

Says it all.

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

This isn't quite the same as what I was talking about. This is about adapting to the power, where I was talking about having a higher Investiture level giving you more power per quantity from your metals.

The reason that it is important is that Feruchemical Nicrosil lets you increase your Investiture level insanely high and thereby increases your efficiency as well. If you compound Nicrosil you should end up with an infinite power loop where the only limit is what has been call "Mistpoint" here on the forums.

Edited July 6, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Pathfinder]

Dont have the time nor ability to reply in full as I would like but I would like to quickly throw in one tid bit. I still am very much of the opinion that we have seen no where near the level of forces odium can bring to bear that resulted in the desolations being such world ending events. I think it is a gross over estimation and over simplification to think what little number of forces we have seen so far is what desolations in the past have been.  Odium thought he had it in the bag. That dalinar would side with him. The humans would be routed and the war won in one fell swoop. Odium was so confident in victory he actually told the parshendi to stand back and watch. That to me is why we haven't seen more yet  So the heralds needed to be the power level they were to face everything else odium has access to that we haven't even seen yet

Edited July 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Doesn't Taln say that often the Heralds had to teach humans how to make bronze? I think their resources were much more limited, though the Heraldic Epochs have become mythified in modern Rosharan (at least Vorin) culture.

Why would they teach them how to make bronze and then not expect them to field large armies.  We also know from Dalinar's vision and Jasnah's later analysis that they lost technology each time so during earlier desolations they should have had that capacity. 

 

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Numbers. There were only 10 Heralds, not all of whom had the prime combat powers.

At the level of power you seem to think these guys had I challenge you to find one who could not kill 6 thunderclasts with an accompaniment of 50 fused.

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

And they couldn't be everywhere at once. They won the Desolations eventually, but Odium's forces could destroy unchecked anywhere that the Heralds weren't. (Bronze-age human forces, before KR, probably couldn't do very much to harm something like a Thunderclast, though they would have been effective against regular singers and - in sufficiently superior numbers - probably the Regals/forms of power).

Some of these people can cross Roshar in a day.  You can't gather and equip a large army within that timeframe.  Yes it would be nasty if a thunderclast showed up but other then that the fused can be killed by a bunch of iron age soldiers without much trouble.

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Kelek would still have had enormous physical abilities, with the Stormlight physical enhancements fueled by a direct feed from Honor... but thunderclasts are 30 foot stone monsters that can tear down fortified walls trivially. And we don't know how many thunderclasts it took to take him down. And his form of healing couldn't restore from an instant-death wound, which almost any hit from something that size would be.

Or you could use cohesion to tern the ground into a liquid form and prevent the thunderclast from moving.  We still have not seen what you can do with transportation.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:22 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It seems like he is talking about flaring here. The faster someone burns their metal the more power they get from it per unit of time. His answer actually feels like he was dodging the question.

I don't think so, the question is specific about more powerful Mistborn; I think it's an actual contradiction.

On 7/6/2019 at 10:22 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The reason that it is important is that Feruchemical Nicrosil lets you increase your Investiture level insanely high and thereby increases your efficiency as well. If you compound Nicrosil you should end up with an infinite power loop where the only limit is what has been call "Mistpoint" here on the forums.

I really doubt that it would work that way (with medallions, things like that aren't going to be as rare in the series going forward, so I really don't think the system would be built to allow that). I would expect that if "efficiency" is a thing at all for non-savants, it is a marginal increase with an upper limit. But I can't prove that.

On 7/6/2019 at 11:20 AM, Pathfinder said:

Dont have the time nor ability to reply in full as I would like but I would like to quickly throw in one tid bit. I still am very much of the opinion that we have seen no where near the level of forces odium can bring to bear that resulted in the desolations being such world ending events.

I agree.

22 hours ago, Karger said:

Why would they teach them how to make bronze and then not expect them to field large armies. 

Oh, the armies were probably large as a proportion of the population, but given the technology level, the population would have been much less than modern Roshar.

22 hours ago, Karger said:

We also know from Dalinar's vision and Jasnah's later analysis that they lost technology each time so during earlier desolations they should have had that capacity. 

I think that means that each time they lost what they had built up since the last Desolation, not that it was a steady decrease over the whole era of Desolations.

22 hours ago, Karger said:

At the level of power you seem to think these guys had I challenge you to find one who could not kill 6 thunderclasts with an accompaniment of 50 fused

I wouldn't expect the Truthwatcher (Illumination/Progression) Herald to be able to do that, their only combat powers would be the massive Stormlight enhancement. The Fused are probably too Invested to be killed by Soulcasting, so I'd say the Lightweaver and Elsecaller Heralds might be in the same situation. Maybe the Willshaper Herald too depending on what the combat applications of Cohesion are.

That physical enhancement would be really dramatic on a normal mortal level, probably well beyond what Shardplate gives you, but thunderclasts are also going to be much stronger than someone in Shardplate, so if the Herald was heavily outnumbered, I can totally see them getting killed the way Kelek was. It only takes one hit, with the way their healing works.

22 hours ago, Karger said:

 the fused can be killed by a bunch of iron age soldiers without much trouble.

Hmmm. I doubt it, but will have to re-read Oathbringer and look for clues as to how good their healing and basic physical enhancements are. I'm arguing for numbers to be effective vs the Heralds since one solid hit would still be fatal (they can't heal from instant death). That would only work with regular soldiers vs the Fused if one hit with a bronze sword or spear could kill them near-instantly.

I don't think 1,000 normal soldiers could kill Kaladin at this point until he ran out of Stormlight. Which the Fused probably don't do.

Anyway, the original argument was about Compounding vs Herald powers. A thunderclast is going to be operating at several hundred times human strength at the very least - they'd have to be, to move at all. (Dalinar describes the vaguely human-shaped ones as five or six times a man's height, which means 125-216 times the mass by square cube law, plus rock is usually two or three times denser than flesh... Each arm is going to weigh tons.) At that level, even Compounders will burn through reserves fast. Their Feruchemy isn't actually unlimited in the short term, they have only so much mass in their metalminds and so much metal in their stomach/vials.

Rosharan stuff is generally operating on a much higher level than Scadrian stuff. Shardplate strength is way, way beyond what pewter Allomancy provides, even flared. Gold healing is one of the most powerful abilities on Scadrial, but all Surgebinders get a much better version (since they don't have to be sick to store up health, and thus have far more healing available). Gravitation works like Allomantic iron+steel, but not limited to metals. And so on.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

57 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Shardplate strength is way, way beyond what pewter Allomancy provides, even flared

Exploding headbutt.

58 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Gold healing is one of the most powerful abilities on Scadrial, but all Surgebinders get a much better version (since they don't have to be sick to store up health, and thus have far more healing available)

Gold compounders do not need to be sick. They store a very small amount of health and then compound it into unlimited health.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Gravitation works like Allomantic iron+steel, but not limited to metals. And so on.

This is not accurate.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think 1,000 normal soldiers could kill Kaladin at this point until he ran out of Stormlight. Which the Fused probably don't do.

One person with a hammer or mallet (or F-steel and A-pewter) could kill him by crushing his head. That is the preferred way to kill a radiant. Rashek, on the other hand, says that he has been decapitated in the past. Gold healing seems very much superior.

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

One person with a hammer or mallet (or F-steel and A-pewter) could kill him by crushing his head. That is the preferred way to kill a radiant. Rashek, on the other hand, says that he has been decapitated in the past. Gold healing seems very much superior.

Except perhaps for progression.  Fused can also be instakilled if you break their gemhearts.

[Gisaku75]

I think that in a clash between a herald and a fullborn it would be the second to come out a winner as it has access to many more capabilities. In addition to zinc and steel, to increase its speed he can use zinc and copper to manipulate the emotions of the other and upset it or make it a vegetable using duralumin. Then we have to consider chrome, we don't know what actually makes  fortune. Using a great deal of fortune could make you immune to any enemy attacks.

[Karger he/him]

7 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

I think that in a clash between a herald and a fullborn it would be the second to come out a winner as it has access to many more capabilities. In addition to zinc and steel, to increase its speed he can use zinc and copper to manipulate the emotions of the other and upset it or make it a vegetable using duralumin. Then we have to consider chrome, we don't know what actually makes  fortune. Using a great deal of fortune could make you immune to any enemy attacks.

That is not how fortune works.

[Pathfinder]

 

On 7/5/2019 at 10:33 AM, Karger said:

You know this how?  Remember compounding strength can get you to be like a hundred times as strong as you are normally.  Are you saying that the Heralds could do 400 lashings around a large area(4 times gravity is about what you need to prevent a person from moving)?  Cause if so I have serious questions about why the Heralds need help during the desolations.

As @cometaryorbit said, compounding is still limited by your metals. Secondly, there is a limit to compounding strength because then you won't be able to move from all the muscle mass. Remember compounding strength doesn't just increase your strength, it increases your muscles to be able to be that strong. Compound so much and you will end up like the body builders that inject liquid into their muscles to make them look bigger and end up looking like a cloud lol. Sazed said it himself, you can only do it so much before you will not be able to move, and also your metal minds will pop off your arms. As to why Heralds needed help during desolations, I answered in another post.

On 7/5/2019 at 5:14 PM, Karger said:

According to the histories pre desolation mankind had access to greater resources then modern Roshar and was capable of fielding large armies.

The ancient fused also seem to have the same kind of power and its not like a Kaladin has that much trouble with them.

 

If they were that powerful then why where the desolations so bad?  Its not like the fused of thunderclasts have comperable power.  Kelek apparently has been killed by a thunderclast yet according to your beliefs his power level should let him turn the entire battlefield into mush so exactly how is a thunderclast going to get close?

There are 100s of forms for the singers that we have not seen. I think we have not seen anywhere near the level of forces Odium can bring to the table. To assume the only enemies the past radiants have faced are what we have seen so far is discounting a lot of the background information we have read. 

On 7/6/2019 at 9:16 PM, Karger said:

Why would they teach them how to make bronze and then not expect them to field large armies.  We also know from Dalinar's vision and Jasnah's later analysis that they lost technology each time so during earlier desolations they should have had that capacity. 

 

At the level of power you seem to think these guys had I challenge you to find one who could not kill 6 thunderclasts with an accompaniment of 50 fused.

Some of these people can cross Roshar in a day.  You can't gather and equip a large army within that timeframe.  Yes it would be nasty if a thunderclast showed up but other then that the fused can be killed by a bunch of iron age soldiers without much trouble.

Or you could use cohesion to tern the ground into a liquid form and prevent the thunderclast from moving.  We still have not seen what you can do with transportation.

It is mentioned in one of the interludes when they were researching the Dawnchant that part of what Odium's forces did was purposely target information centers to reduce their technological advancements between desolations. Another interlude mentioned how the radaints were endeavoring to find a way to maintain information between desolations, with the implication being it was the gemstones in Urithiru. 

I don't need to find 6 thunderclasts to defeat a herald with 50 fused. We have the Unmade which we have not seen the full extent of their powers yet. We have 100s of forms for the singers we have not seen yet. We have visions from Dalinar where midnight essences were just the hint of the coming desolation as per the knights own words. Odium was convinced he was going to win without issue. So why worry about bringing his A game?

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Exploding headbutt.

Gold compounders do not need to be sick. They store a very small amount of health and then compound it into unlimited health.

This is not accurate.

One person with a hammer or mallet (or F-steel and A-pewter) could kill him by crushing his head. That is the preferred way to kill a radiant. Rashek, on the other hand, says that he has been decapitated in the past. Gold healing seems very much superior.

Exploding headbutt was from a duralumin pewter burn to an exposed head. Not a shardplate covered one. Even if the herald did lose his or her head (which as I put forward earlier, it wouldn't even get near that point), we have seen how fast Renarin heals with progression coupled with stormlight. The herald could just focus the direct investiture to healing that place instantly. But again, in the examples I gave, it would not even reach that point

That is the preferred way to kill a radiant. We do not know if that would apply to a herald who has access to investiture directly from Honor. And again this is moot if the metal minds are destroyed or soulcasted away. The individual would no longer have access to compounding. 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Except perhaps for progression.  Fused can also be instakilled if you break their gemhearts.

Do you know how big a parshendi gemheart is?

Edited July 8, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Exploding headbutt was from a duralumin pewter burn to an exposed head. Not a shardplate covered one.

The so called "exposed head" belonged to a pewter burner. It isn't Shardplate, but it isn't exactly a watermelon either.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Even if the herald did lose his or her head (which as I put forward earlier, it wouldn't even get near that point)

I haven't seen a reasonable counter to F-steel anywhere in this thread, so it could easily get to that point.

 

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

we have seen how fast Renarin heals with progression coupled with stormlight. The herald could just focus the direct investiture to healing that place instantly.

We have never seen Renarin (or any other Stormlight user) get their head crushed. According to Ivory it is the most effective way to kill someone holding Stormlight.

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But again, in the examples I gave, it would not even reach that point

Your examples depend on the Heralds having access to powers that we have seen no sign of anywhere in the text.

[RShara she/her]

6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Do you know how big a parshendi gemheart is?

Not sure if this was rhetorical or not, but it's very small, and is embedded in the chest bone.

Quote

Questioner

I was wondering, in Stormlight, what kind of gem the [singer] gemhearts were, or do they just, do they hold Stormlight well?

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a good question. This is one that people have been asking me since the first book, if they had one, and I've finally kind of confirmed it in book three. So the reason people don't think [singers] have a gemheart is it is milky white, and looks like bone.

Questioner

But aren't their bones red?

Brandon Sanderson

Their bones, well-- Their bones are red-- not completely. If you're going to pull out the bone, what you're going to see-- I'll explain it in the next book. So what you're going to do is, if you break open the bone, you're going to find this white-- It's not marrow but it is, yeah I guess it's marrow. Anyway at the center kind of in their sternum there is a gemheart there, but it is fused to the bone and it is grown into the bone, and you have to kind of snap it open and find it inside, and it kind of just looks like marrow, but there's a gemheart in there. And it kind of relates to some stuff in Dragonsteel that I'm not gonna get into. But you'll see in the next books. But there's a good reason people just don't think that [singers] have a gemheart. 

Questioner

So they must not glow much then, I'm assuming.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, well, it's surrounded by bone. So it's a different special thing. We'll bring it out in the following books. It might not be the next one.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

The so called "exposed head" belonged to a pewter burner. It isn't Shardplate, but it isn't exactly a watermelon either.

I haven't seen a reasonable counter to F-steel anywhere in this thread, so it could easily get to that point.

 

We have never seen Renarin (or any other Stormlight user) get their head crushed. According to Ivory it is the most effective way to kill someone holding Stormlight.

Your examples depend on the Heralds having access to powers that we have seen no sign of anywhere in the text.

So let's see if I can put this in a cohesive order. So my comments can be seen easier vs the WoB and book quotes I will color my words blue

First, let us discuss the heralds and the honorblades. The honorblades before Honor's death were fueled directly by Honor. The heralds had access to levels of power no radiant could ever hope to obtain. Both WoB shown below:

 

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

 

So where else have we seen a magic system where a normal example of that magic system, having direct access to that shards investiture allowed that individual to do things far beyond what any other common magic user of that system can do? Oh yeah, Vin when she was fueled by Preservation. There is a limit on a normal mistborn on how strong they can push. There is a limit to what they can push on. Yet in Hero of Ages......

 

"Her overpowering Push forced the whole flock of them downward, as if they'd been swatted. In fact, her Push also hit the metal spire directly beneath her. The stone architecture holding the spire in place exploded, spraying chips and dust outward as the spire itself crushed the building beneath it...."

"If a single Push could throw her up so far she passed out of the mists, then what would happen if she Pushed outward? When the Inquisitors had almost reached her, she Pushed outward again, throwing metal away from her with all the force she could muster while at the same time strengthening her body with a massive flare of pewter. Stone cracked. Inquisitors cried out. And Kredik Shaw exploded. Towers topples from their foundations. Doors ripped free from their frames. Windows shattered. Blocks burst, the entire structure torn to pieces as its metals lurched away. She screamed as she Pushed, the ground trembling beneath her. Everything - even the rock and stone, which obviously contained residual traces of metal ore - was thrown violently back. She gasped, stopping her Push. She drew in breath, feeling the rain splatter against her. The building that had been the Lord Ruler's palace was gone, flattened to rubble which spread out and away from her like an impact crater. "

"Pulling on a fallen spire. The massive piece of metal - nearly as big as a building itself - lurched into the air, spinning at her command. She slammed it into the Inquisitors like a club, crushing them. "

 

So we see Vin powered directly by a shard level an entire building with just a push. So if a mistborn fueled directly by a shard could do that, then I see no reason personally why a herald could not do the same with their surges. So now let us talk each power I mentioned. I will start with soulcasting first. Fabrial soulcasting is used to pushing through innate investiture enough that it could soulcast a normal gold mind. It is also possible to soulcast shardplate. The feruchemical stores of a fullborn are obviously much more invested right? But so too would be Battar by drawing directly on Honor. So to me that says she could do it. I understand if you disagree. 

 

Questioner

Can you Soulcast an Invested object?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's much harder. But humans are Invested, and you can soulcast humans.

Questioner

So, suppose you had a goldmind that was filled. And you tried to Soulcast into iron. What would happen to the Investiture inside it?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the Investiture would remain in there, but it's keyed to the wrong thing, so you wouldn't be able to get it. It'd be much harder to Soulcast that, by the way. The more Invested, the harder it is. But Soulcasters are used to it, because everything has Investiture, and most of what they're Soulcasting. They deal with this, so it's something they're kind of expert at. So, this is not outside reason, that it could happen. You could give it to your average Soulcaster on Roshar, and they could make it happen. You just wouldn't be able to get the Investiture out of it anymore.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

H4rg

I would have a question about Soulcasting : is Soulcasting an invested object harder ? And if it is a human (lets say, an Allomancer) but he is not burning any metal, would he be as easy as Soulcast as any "normal" person ?

Brandon Sanderson

It is harder to Soulcast an invested object, but Soulcasters--by their nature--are used to dealing with this.

When Allomancers aren't burning metal, they are not considered highly-invested.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 20, 2016)

 

 

Questioner

Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

 

Next power to discuss. Gravitation. Couldn't the fullborn just change his or her weight? Well as per WoB it might mitigate it, but would not stop the effect. In addition there is a limit on storage. So again, based on the above WoB and the ones below, I believe a herald could create a gravitational field powerful enough to at the very least keep the fullborn in place, if not crush them requiring them to constantly heal. So in this case it would be more of a draw. The limit on storage WoB I posted in another thread so will edit this one to add after I post

 

Bat_Mannington

If a Windrunner lashed Wax upwards, could he dump all of his weight into his metalminds and be unaffected or would the lashing affect his clothes and whatever else he had on him too?

Brandon Sanderson

Wax could mitigate the effect (unless he was in a vacuum) but not eliminate it completely.

faragorn

Vacuum or freefall?

It can be easy to confuse them in the context of surface to orbit.

Brandon Sanderson

I was talking about a Vacuum, but it's good to clarify. What I'm saying is that without wind resistance, his mass doesn't matter--and the books have established that what Wax does is a freakish transformation of his mass, not just his weight.

Kaladin changes how much gravity pulls on someone, and in what direction. Wax (basically, it's more complex than this) changes how much mass he has. The two, then, have some very distinctive effects.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 5, 2015)

 

 

Thoughtful Spurts

If there's really no upper limit to Feruchemy for practical reasons* , why didn't Sazed just fill steel at ridiculous levels for a few minutes in [Well of Ascension], and then go back to running instead of leaving his steelminds there? Say, being some 100,000 times slower than he would normally be for about a minute. Meaning that a Feruchemist should be able to fill a given metalmind in very short periods of time if you fill at a high enough rate.

*(yes, you have the limit of how much you can store in a given metalmind and for how many metalminds you can carry on your person, but those are probably too high to really be taken into account in more "normal" circumstances)

Brandon Sanderson

The low end is bounded. You can pull out tons--but in filling, you can only go so far. I didn't ever explicitly talk about this in the series, but the implications are there. Not all have the same bounds, but in your example, the body just can't slow beyond a certain point. Think of it this way--you can only fill a weight metalmind with as much weight as you have to give. So you can become very, very light--but you only add to a time for doubling your weight. You can't make yourself 100,000 times slower and gain 100,000 times multiplication. You can give up all of your normal speed, and so when you tap that speed out you are at 200% for an equal period. (And that's a theoretical maximum; realistically, you can only go to down around 75% slower or the like.)

 

Next division. You can melt down metal minds. The power is still accessible, so long as it remains together. If the herald did a huge field of division, it could turn the metal minds to either liquid which would run down the fullborn's arms and drip away preventing access, or if hot enough could potentially vaporize the metal, also preventing the fullborn from accessing the stores resulting in its death. 

 

ntdfbladez (paraphrased)

If a metalmind is melted down and changes shape, does it still retain its power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, only by mixing it with other metals would the power be completely lost. Also if any pieces of the metalmind are lost, then some of the power will be lost (as it would be in the missing pieces).

Rithmatist Houston signing (May 20, 2013)

 

Finally your comment about Renarin not being able to heal from a crushed skull. Renarin's entire body was crushed by a Thunderclast's hand, yet he healed instantly. Quote below:

 

Oathbringer

"The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist. The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother."

 

So a herald with a direct line to investiture to heal. You can channel stormlight in greater amounts to heal wounds faster, just you would run out faster. Heralds from what these WoB say to me, do not have that limitation.

So in summation, the above WoB and quotes are enough for me to believe that the Heralds could bring to fore the levels of power I present. If that doesn't work for you, then hey to each their own. But if these quotes are correct in showing the level of power the Heralds had access to, then I presented the ways I think the heralds could use those powers to win against a fullborn. I think Battar would have the best chance as she could transport to the cognitive realm where the fullborn could not attack her. She could then soulcast the bands to smoke ending the fullborn's access to all his or her powers. Once the fullborn becomes a normal person, since their metalminds are no more, then soulcasting the fullborn directly should be child's play.

 

edit: ah one more thing I just thought of! There is a WoB, that I will try to find later that hints that the shattered plains could have been shattered due to lightweaving. Now one could say a whole bunch of lightweavers boosted by a bondsmith could have done that. Or maybe a certain king's daughter maybe? ::::cough Shalash cough cough::::

 

edit 2: still looking for the shattered plains WoB, but found three others of note, shown below:

 

 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

So were the Dawncities, the ones based on cymatic patterns, created using a supercharged combinations of the Surges of Cohesion and Illumination? Using Cohesion to make the ground liquid and using Illumination to create the frequency.

Brandon Sanderson

You are theorizing in the right direction.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

 

Questioner

Lightweavers are radios, aren't they? Lightwaves are radio waves? Light and-- they're the same thing, aren't they?

Brandon Sanderson

...They can do sound too, yeah. So you're saying lightweaving with illusion, can it?

Questioner

Can transmit radio waves? As in, communicate over long distances, it's one of the most important things in battles, right? In war...

Brandon Sanderson

I had someone in one of my very early books irradiate someone with Lightweaving, I think.

Questioner

Oh that's right you've got multiple kinds of Lightweaving.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

17 hours ago, RShara said:

Not sure if this was rhetorical or not, but it's very small, and is embedded in the chest bone.

 

it was semi rhetorical. If Karger had said he or she did not know, or that he or she assumed the gemhearts were easy to find running the fused through with a shardblade, I was then going to follow up with what you posted, showing how small and thereby difficult to aim for the gemhearts are. Thanks for the quote!

Edited July 9, 2019 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

@Pathfinder I can’t be bothered to read all of that. I got as far as your Vin at Kredik Shaw example. Vin wasn’t fueled by Preservation there, she was Preservation. She was fueled by Preservation when she killed Rashek. Huge difference.

[Pathfinder]

54 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

@Pathfinder I can’t be bothered to read all of that. I got as far as your Vin at Kredik Shaw example. Vin wasn’t fueled by Preservation there, she was Preservation. She was fueled by Preservation when she killed Rashek. Huge difference.

Eh, well I will be happy to read and respond in full to your response when you do read the whole thing. Guess to each their own. 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

When Allomancers aren't burning metal, they are not considered highly-invested.

TLR was always tapping age making him rather invested.

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Kaladin changes how much gravity pulls on someone, and in what direction. Wax (basically, it's more complex than this) changes how much mass he has. The two, then, have some very distinctive effects.

This may not work but Wax mentions to Kriss that conservation of momentum still applies so could tapping weight mitigate this?  Additionally Lashings require contract cant't TLR just say "strange glowy thing = bad" and jump away from the area with A pewter and F steal.

 

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Next division. You can melt down metal minds. The power is still accessible, so long as it remains together. If the herald did a huge field of division, it could turn the metal minds to either liquid which would run down the fullborn's arms and drip away preventing access, or if hot enough could potentially vaporize the metal, also preventing the fullborn from accessing the stores resulting in its death. 

Same situation with Lashings.  TLR should just jump away.  Even if he does not I think he might still be able to get the investiture out of the vapor or dust floating in the air.

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

edit 2: still looking for the shattered plains WoB, but found three others of note, shown below:

I believe the Dawnshards were involved in that particular shattering.  I could be wrong but it would also explain a lot.

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

TLR was always tapping age making him rather invested.

Which is why I was saying the herald would destroy the metal minds first, for which without the fullborn cannot compound and thereby no longer is invested and therefore just like a mistborn when they aren't burning, can be soulcasted away like any other person. 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

This may not work but Wax mentions to Kriss that conservation of momentum still applies so could tapping weight mitigate this?  Additionally Lashings require contract cant't TLR just say "strange glowy thing = bad" and jump away from the area with A pewter and F steal.

Again, as in my initial post, I readily admit this is assuming both individuals start a distance away from each other, neither using any powers. Countdown happens, then begin. Power usage on part of both parties seems to be the speed of thought. As in mental activation. The fullborn would naturally tap speed both mental and physical first. What I posit is the herald would use their surges in a giant area and its max power. If the entire area is taken up, then to me it would not matter how fast the fullborn is as there is no where to go. Yes lashing requires contact. The same contact that Jezerin would have just standing on the ground. Normally lashings are limited due to the amount of stormlight you have. The larger the object, the more stormlight required for each lash. The greater number of lashings, the greater the stormlight used. I posit being fueled directly by Honor jumps those hurdles like when Vin was fueled by the mists at Kredik Shaw (annotations of that chapter in Hero of Ages backs this up). So basically how I envision it is combat starts, fullborn taps both types of speed (physical and mental) at the same time the herald creates a field of gravitation for miles around pulverizing everything. The fullborn would either have to be assumed to also be tapping strength, and healing, which I admit is reasonable to expect, or it would go squish. In that example I feel it would be a stalemate. The fullborn unable to move constantly tapping strength and healing, while the herald maintain the gravitational field. Theoretically the herald could then advance and shove the honorblade through the fullborn's head, but I think that would be a needless risk as it would provide the fullborn metal on which to push and potentially end the herald's access to the power. 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

 

Same situation with Lashings.  TLR should just jump away.  Even if he does not I think he might still be able to get the investiture out of the vapor or dust floating in the air.

Same thing as I presented with gravitation. My expectation of the effect would be like when Kredik Shaw was crushed. In fact it could be even more as it is commented on in that scene that Vin gets stronger over time as she is using the mists. A herald who has been using the honorblades for centuries I would imagine would have gotten quite used to their use. Assuming an intense enough heat (if the interludes are to be believed, even stone is burned by a dustbringer's division), the metal minds could potentially be destroyed very quickly. All metal can be vaporized. You just have to hit the right temperature. Gold vaporizes at 1064 C. There goes the fullborn's healing. 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I believe the Dawnshards were involved in that particular shattering.  I could be wrong but it would also explain a lot.

Good point. Could be though we have no idea what the dawnshards were exactly. I do feel the other WoB stands though. Creating an entire city with the use of lightweaving and cohesion is possible as per the WoB. Considering all the cities are symmetrical, I do not think it is something that could be done a piece at a time. It seems to me more that it originated at a center, and was formed at that size in one go. So that is what I am claiming the herald could do to battle a fullborn. Hopefully that clarified a bit more. 

[Karger he/him]

52 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Which is why I was saying the herald would destroy the metal minds first, for which without the fullborn cannot compound and thereby no longer is invested and therefore just like a mistborn when they aren't burning, can be soulcasted away like any other person. 

If a soulcaster successfully gets rid of TRL's metalminds I think the rest of the combat is going to be fairly short. 

 

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, as in my initial post, I readily admit this is assuming both individuals start a distance away from each other, neither using any powers. Countdown happens, then begin. Power usage on part of both parties seems to be the speed of thought. As in mental activation. The fullborn would naturally tap speed both mental and physical first. What I posit is the herald would use their surges in a giant area and its max power.

They would likely have to touch the floor first which does take a second.  I also think for some reason (although I can't think why) that it takes some time to expand lashing fields over wider areas.

 

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The fullborn unable to move constantly tapping strength and healing, while the herald maintain the gravitational field. Theoretically the herald could then advance and shove the honorblade through the fullborn's head, but I think that would be a needless risk as it would provide the fullborn metal on which to push and potentially end the herald's access to the power. 

How exactly is the Lashing effecting a constantly compounding fullborn.  They must be extremely invested.  If you can and do find a way to get rid of the metalminds then the fullborn looses.  If you can't for whatever reason then the fullborn can tap healing strength and speed enough to invalidation or at least weaken the lashing locally and Hulk punch the Herald hard enough that their head explodes.

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, Karger said:

If a soulcaster successfully gets rid of TRL's metalminds I think the rest of the combat is going to be fairly short. 

Yes. As I mentioned in a prior post, I am basing my comments on that we know a normal fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a normal full goldmind. I believe by extension being fueled by a shard a herald would be capable of soulcasting metalminds at the level of a fullborn. 

Quote

They would likely have to touch the floor first which does take a second.  I also think for some reason (although I can't think why) that it takes some time to expand lashing fields over wider areas.

Kaladin has shown he can surgebind with his feet just as well as his hands. The herald is standing on the ground, thus he is touching the ground. When we see Szeth or Kaladin lash an object, it does not take time for the entire object to get lashed. The entire object is immediately lashed with each lashing. That at least is my reasoning

Quote

How exactly is the Lashing effecting a constantly compounding fullborn.  They must be extremely invested.  If you can and do find a way to get rid of the metalminds then the fullborn looses.  If you can't for whatever reason then the fullborn can tap healing strength and speed enough to invalidation or at least weaken the lashing locally and Hulk punch the Herald hard enough that their head explodes.

Because as mentioned earlier the honorblade is drawing directly from Honor, so there is no running out of stormlight. The fullborn can only store so much weight (as per one WoB I posted), in addition to storing weight may mitigate slightly the effect of a lashing (another WoB I posted). The fullborn as you said would have to constantly be compounding strength and healing just to not be turned into a puddle nonetheless actually move anywhere. At least that is my reasoning/what I posit. 

edit: Just as an aside, the fullborn would have to tap health as increasing muscle strength alone would not prevent the fullborn's brain in their skull, and organs in their body from being squeezed into liquid and forced out of its body like a juicer. 

edit 2: as another aside, the fullborn would have to hold its metals in its hands, because the increased gravitational pull could result in the bands breaking off from the weight. In fact the fullborn would end up quite naked from the weight of the clothes ripping off the fullborn LOL

Edited July 10, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Yes. As I mentioned in a prior post, I am basing my comments on that we know a normal fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a normal full goldmind. I believe by extension being fueled by a shard a herald would be capable of soulcasting metalminds at the level of a fullborn. 

Agreed but soulcasters don't usually work at speeds that are particularly useful in combat.  Ordinary soulcasters seem to take several seconds of humming before they do anything.  Against stealrunner speed I don't think that is useful.  Yes Jasnah is capable of faster methods but I still suspect steel might be faster.  Even if not there is no Herald that can do both gravitation and soulcasting.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Agreed but soulcasters don't usually work at speeds that are particularly useful in combat.  Ordinary soulcasters seem to take several seconds of humming before they do anything.  Against stealrunner speed I don't think that is useful.  Yes Jasnah is capable of faster methods but I still suspect steel might be faster.  Even if not there is no Herald that can do both gravitation and soulcasting.

I will just copy paste the example I made with Batter in an earlier post:

 

On 7/9/2019 at 11:27 AM, Pathfinder said:

I think Battar would have the best chance as she could transport to the cognitive realm where the fullborn could not attack her. She could then soulcast the bands to smoke ending the fullborn's access to all his or her powers. Once the fullborn becomes a normal person, since their metalminds are no more, then soulcasting the fullborn directly should be child's play.

So when fullborn activates all its powers, Battar would activate transportation to fully transition to the cognitive realm. At which point she can find the bead associated with the metalminds on the fullborn, soulcast them to smoke, and then soulcast the now uninvested fullborn to smoke. 

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So when fullborn activates all its powers, Battar would activate transportation to fully transition to the cognitive realm. At which point she can find the bead associated with the metalminds on the fullborn, soulcast them to smoke, and then soulcast the now uninvested fullborn to smoke. 

Hm Probably has the best chance of any Herald.  Ishar, Pailah, Kelek, Ash, and Taln would be in various stages of trouble.  She could still be hit by soothing.  I wonder if in the CR soothing is like waves.