Pathfinder Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: At the risk of repeating myself, honor is not ethics. Killing per se is not dishonorable. Killing by trickery, or killing somebody who has surrendered or killing somebody you owe loyalty to, that is dishonorable. But killing your enemies in open combat. Not a problem. In fact it is usually mandatory, as you have sworn an oath joining an army. Honor will recognise ownership by conquest. How else could he side with the humans? The sheer fact that there are 10 orders of knights all based on different interpretations of honor, that conduct themselves in different ways, and disagree on what is honorable shows honor is not as cut and dry as you claim. But let us also look to the multiple definitions of honor and their synonyms. As you can see there is room for both honor in morality, and honor in obligation. noun 1. high respect; great esteem. "his portrait hangs in the place of honor" synonyms:distinction, privilege, glory, tribute, kudos, cachet, prestige, fame, renown, merit, credit, importance, illustriousness, notability; More 2. adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct. "I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty" synonyms:integrity, honorableness, honesty, uprightness, ethics, morals, morality, principle, (high) principles, righteousness, rectitude, nobility, high-mindedness, right-mindedness, noble-mindedness; More verb 1. regard with great respect. "they honore their parents in all they did" synonyms:hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for, esteem, respect, admire, defer to, look up to, think highly of; More 2. fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement). "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract" synonyms:fulfill, observe, keep, discharge, implement, perform, execute, effect, obey, heed, follow, carry out, carry through, keep to, abide by, adhere to, comply with, conform to, act in accordance with, be true to, be faithful to, live up to; rareeffectuate "make sure the franchisees honor the terms of the contract"
Ixthos Luke/Luke Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 To add to that, does anyone here watch SFdebris, a web series of reviews? He covered the concept of honour in a rather interesting way, focusing on, of course, the Klingons and on Worf. In particular these two reviews: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnWOHVOVgFQ - on Worf and Klingon honour and https://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/d449.php - the House of Quark 1
Karger he/him Posted July 3, 2019 Posted July 3, 2019 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Killing by trickery See Kaladin chapter 1 killing of WoK. Various effects make us believe that Syl was there at the time and she apparently had no problems with Kaladin outmaneuvering somone on the battlefield. 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Honor will recognise ownership by conquest. How else could he side with the humans? We have no idea why Honor sided with humans. At the time of his "siding" we don't know if the humans were still adhering to the ancient pact. It is possible that the Parshendi broke their word first or at least broke it more egregiously. 10 hours ago, Oltux72 said: But killing your enemies in open combat. Not a problem. In fact it is usually mandatory, as you have sworn an oath joining an army. What do you think Moash did when he joined with Kaladin?
+Oltux72 he/him Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 11 hours ago, Karger said: See Kaladin chapter 1 killing of WoK. Various effects make us believe that Syl was there at the time and she apparently had no problems with Kaladin outmaneuvering somone on the battlefield. Well, yes. Things like poisoning somebody's drink. Though yes, the evidence on that is meagre. 11 hours ago, Karger said: We have no idea why Honor sided with humans. At the time of his "siding" we don't know if the humans were still adhering to the ancient pact. It is possible that the Parshendi broke their word first or at least broke it more egregiously. I am afraid I need to point out that the Stormfather, who is closest to a remainder of Honor, favored destroying a rebellious conquered city. 11 hours ago, Karger said: What do you think Moash did when he joined with Kaladin? Put himself under Kaladin's command. Hence Moash asked for permission and got it. If somebody broke his word there, it was Kaladin. 1
Nymeros Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 On 7/2/2019 at 6:50 AM, Ixthos said: We can all agree on one thing, whatever our feelings on Moash and Elhokar: what Elhokar did to Moash's grandparents was wrong, and deserved to be punished for failing in his duties and causing pain to those he was supposed to protect (as Windrunners show, Leadership and Protection are the same). However, he did it without malice, without the intention of harming someone in a permanent way We dont know Elhokar's intent as we weren't in his head and he never stated his intent. We do know that Moash was aware of Roshone and his competition with Moash's grandparents but still found Elhokar ultimately responsible (and not just a dim button pusher). On 7/2/2019 at 9:10 AM, Karger said: Moash did not have any moral or physical obligation to be in battle. He was not realy helping anyone by charging the walls nor did he think he was. He could have gone on his way and done no harm to anyone he was killing people for no reason. Dead people are dead people regardless of how they die and Yes he was. He empathized with the Singers and chose to join and support their cause. He had a clear reason for fighting. He wanted to prove himself to the Singers in the battle and help them to win it. He didnt lead his team to the palace because he thought he might have a shot to kill Elhokar; that was just chance. Quote claiming that Moash's actions are somehow better then Elhokar's because they took place combat with personal malice as apposed to Elhokar's which took place out of combat but without any malice at all strikes me as a little silly. I agree. On 7/2/2019 at 5:00 PM, Rainier said: Recognizing your mistakes does not prevent you from suffering the consequences. *nodding head in agreement* Quote Mind boggling No....bottling. Blame Will Ferrell for getting it stuck in my head. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Put himself under Kaladin's command. Hence Moash asked for permission and got it. If somebody broke his word there, it was Kaladin. I don't see this mentioned enough. Kaladin gave Moash permission to proceed with assassinating Elhokar and waited until the last possible instant to turn on Moash and oppose him. He put Moash in a very difficult position.
Karger he/him Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: I am afraid I need to point out that the Stormfather, who is closest to a remainder of Honor, favored destroying a rebellious conquered city. He is also a storm. Storms destroy cities its kind of what they do. Expecting him to have compassion for the destruction of cities is not realistic. Remember when Kaladin tries to convince him to turn aside? 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Put himself under Kaladin's command. Hence Moash asked for permission and got it. If somebody broke his word there, it was Kaladin. I have a hard time believing that membership in Dalinar's army is not something that requires swearing your loyalty as a matter of course. I also doubt that Kaladin's word suffices for his men. Granted I have no direct proof but still. 27 minutes ago, Nymeros said: We do know that Moash was aware of Roshone and his competition with Moash's grandparents but still found Elhokar ultimately responsible (and not just a dim button pusher). How do we know this? 29 minutes ago, Nymeros said: He put Moash in a very difficult position. The king never saw Moash's face. Moash could have turned around and left the palace and no one would have known. I would argue that it was Moash who put Kaladin in a difficult situation as he forced Kaladin to choose between his oath and personal friendship not to mention his bridge four loyalty. 1
Nymeros Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Karger said: How do we know this? It's from Moash's description of the incident to Kaladin. Quote The king never saw Moash's face. Moash could have turned around and left the palace and no one would have known. I would argue that it was Moash who put Kaladin in a difficult situation as he forced Kaladin to choose between his oath and personal friendship not to mention his bridge four loyalty. The difficult situation I was referring to was Kaladin assisting Moash with achieving his greatest goal only then trying to snatch that goal away from him at the last instant. Kaladin might have been able to talk him down if he had attempted earlier when Moash came to visit him.
Karger he/him Posted July 4, 2019 Posted July 4, 2019 54 minutes ago, Nymeros said: The difficult situation I was referring to was Kaladin assisting Moash with achieving his greatest goal only then trying to snatch that goal away from him at the last instant. Kaladin might have been able to talk him down if he had attempted earlier when Moash came to visit him. Kaladin tried to talk him down several times prior to that. He told Moash he wanted him gone so that when they arrested the traitors he would not go down too. Moash disobeyed orders. I honestly think Moash was the one who was putting greater strain on their relationship (which is largely why I hate him so much). 56 minutes ago, Nymeros said: It's from Moash's description of the incident to Kaladin. Sure but he does not know that Roshone manipulated the king. From his account Moash seems to think the king was just doing Roshone a favor. 2
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted July 6, 2019 Posted July 6, 2019 Moash deserves no redemption. He should rot on Braize for all eternity. OB spoiler Spoiler He killed elothakar in the middle of his redemption arc. He was inches away from becoming radiant. I HATE MOASH! 2
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