Minor Characters you want to see promoted

[Wander89 he/him]

Kabsal! oh wait....

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Redin! He's such an interesting character. He's the only heterochromatic person we've met so far, so we could get a unique perspective on the caste system from him. And the way he was left at the end of Taravangian's interlude leaves so many questions open. He was already kind of an outcast from society, only respected and powerful because his father was so high ranking and chose to give him that position. Since he killed his father, that's probably all gotten so much worse for him. I've been a huge fan of the Redin becomes a Dustbringer theory since before OB came out, and I'm still hoping he's the Dustbringer in book 4 that Brandon has talked about. But I'd be happy with just finding out what actually happened to him.

Another one that'd I'd eventually like to see more of is Vai. She's the young singer girl that Kaladin meets in part ! of OB. She was separated from her father so her father could fight and be killed in Kholinar. Her mother was sold off when she was a baby before the Everstorm hit. We have a singer orphan that's now being raised by the enemy and can will likely grow up believing whatever they tell her. Depending on how the fifth book ends, she could be such an interesting character to come back to in the back five to really see what it's like growing up in a singer society filled with hatred and a desire for revenge. Her perspective and upbringing would be a good contrast for someone like Gavinor, whose parents were also killed but was raised in Urithiru among family and people who love him.

[Firebolt-101]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 7:52 AM, Awaken Returner said:

Personally, I'd like to read more about Teft. While he, Rock, and Moash took relatively similar screen times in Way of Kings, I can't help but feel that Moash kind of stole most of the camera's focus during Words of Radiance. I think his journey overcoming his fire-moss addiction and overall unhealthy self loathing to become a fully-fledged Windrunner would be very satisfying. (I imagine his character arc will partly culminate with a conflict against Ashertmarn). The backstory of the Envisagers might also shed some light on the Sons of Honour and the Skybreakers; their sudden mass executions, given the fact that they weren't really posing a threat to the rest of the populace, seem too suspicious to me.

Oh, that's a good one! I'd never thought of Teft coming face-to-face with Ashertmarn, or about how sketchy the Envisagers story is- now I really hope we get that!

[I lost my flute]

I know Lift is kinda a major character but I really want to know more. She just has such a unique look on life and just does whatever she wants to do.

[Grytorm]

Amaram. I know that might be weird, but when I first read Words of Radiance I thought he was going to get a bit of a larger role in the next book because of Shallan's discovery of his notes written in modified glyphs. And because he was the only living Son's of Honor we knew about. I did enjoy his eventual death though.

And I have always had this idea that Amaram might not have stolen the shards if Kaladin had taken them. And more from his point of view would have probably dissuaded me of the idea.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

59 minutes ago, Grytorm said:

Amaram. I know that might be weird, but when I first read Words of Radiance I thought he was going to get a bit of a larger role in the next book because of Shallan's discovery of his notes written in modified glyphs. And because he was the only living Son's of Honor we knew about. I did enjoy his eventual death though.

And I have always had this idea that Amaram might not have stolen the shards if Kaladin had taken them. And more from his point of view would have probably dissuaded me of the idea.

Agreed. Amaram is a character with huge potential. 

And I think you are right about the last part. Amaram must have seen Kaladins worth as a warrior, and if he had Shards he would be very valuable. 

[Grytorm]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Agreed. Amaram is a character with huge potential. 

And I think you are right about the last part. Amaram must have seen Kaladins worth as a warrior, and if he had Shards he would be very valuable. 

My thought was more about Amaran deciding that darkeyes lacked the will to even grab an opportunity to improve their positions. That's why I think he asked Kaladin why he refused them. Because someone just giving away shards wasn't something he could reallu understand.

[CosmicSieve]

3 hours ago, Grytorm said:

Amaram. I know that might be weird, but when I first read Words of Radiance I thought he was going to get a bit of a larger role in the next book because of Shallan's discovery of his notes written in modified glyphs. And because he was the only living Son's of Honor we knew about. I did enjoy his eventual death though.

And I have always had this idea that Amaram might not have stolen the shards if Kaladin had taken them. And more from his point of view would have probably dissuaded me of the idea.

I am waiting for Amaram's cronie the stormwarden Restares to pop up as a character. I really want to know more about the Sons of Honor.

I think you are right that Amaram would have spared Kaladin if he had picked up the Shards. The Sons of Honor wanted to restore the Vorin church, and legends allowed for a darkeye to win Shards and become lighteyed. But the case Amaram had was a darkeye killing a lighteye but refusing the Shards so he would remain darkeyed, and then the darkeye granting the Shards to another darkeye. That just doesn't fit in with Vorinism. So Restares wanted Kaladin and his men erased, and Amaram got the Shards as payment for doing that deed.

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Agreed. Amaram is a character with huge potential. 

And I think you are right about the last part. Amaram must have seen Kaladins worth as a warrior, and if he had Shards he would be very valuable. 

 

2 hours ago, Grytorm said:

My thought was more about Amaran deciding that darkeyes lacked the will to even grab an opportunity to improve their positions. That's why I think he asked Kaladin why he refused them. Because someone just giving away shards wasn't something he could reallu understand.

And to no ones surprise, I disagree lol. If that was the case, then Amaram would have let Kaladin bequeath the shardplate to one of the darkeyes, which is exactly what Kaladin said. That that guy (forgetting his name at the moment), would be more effective in the shardplate than him. It is then that Amaram claimed to rationalize that the plate and blade would be better used by himself than a dark eyed. (will add the quote in a bit)

Edited July 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Grytorm said:

My thought was more about Amaran deciding that darkeyes lacked the will to even grab an opportunity to improve their positions. That's why I think he asked Kaladin why he refused them. Because someone just giving away shards wasn't something he could reallu understand.

I actually kind of agree.  In Amaram's mind not taking an opertunity is a sign of weakness and unworthiness if Kaladin had strait up claimed the shards Amaram would have had a harder time rationalizing his superiority.

[Lightblood]

I want to see Rlain bond to the Sibling and lead the remaining listeners and those who don't want odium among the parshem

[Lightblood]

12 hours ago, I lost my flute said:

I know Lift is kinda a major character but I really want to know more. She just has such a unique look on life and just does whatever she wants to do.

We know for a fact that we are getting Lift as a flashback character in the back five so we are going to get alot of lift later on.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

I need more Skar. What we’ve seen is so cool.  I know we’ve gotten a bunch of Adolin and Renarin in OB but I want more!

[Pathfinder]

Quote shown below:

 

Way of Kings Page 702

"Look" kaladin said "Those Shards are mine. Well, I said to give them to Coreb. He's the highest ranked of my soldiers, and the best fighter among them."

......

"I couldn't risk them telling what they saw. This is what must be, soldier. It's for the good of the army. They're going to be told that your squad helped the Shardbearer. You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"You're taking the Shards for yourself!"

"I am trained in the sword" Amaram said "and am accustomed to plate. It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"you could have asked me for them! Storm you!"

"And when news got around camp?" Amaram said grimly "That you'd killed the Shardbearer but I had the Shards? Nobody would believe that you'd given them up of your own free choice. Besides, son. You wouldn't have let me keep them." Amaram shook his head "You'd have changed your mind. in a day or two, you'd have wanted the wealth and the prestige - others would convince you of it. You'd have demanded that I return them to you. 

 

So Amaram is caught multiple times in a lie here. First he claims he is doing it because he is the most skilled, yet just a few moments earlier Kaladin, as owner of the plate and blade, gave them to Coreb, who he stated was the highest ranked and best fighter on his team. So it is not about skill, because it would have gone to the person Kaladin deemed the most skilled in the fine tradition that kings and rulers even follow. The king or ruler owns the plate, but a battle worthy individual wields it for the king or ruler. Then when Kaladin says he would have given Amaram the shards, Amaram claims it is because nobody would believe that he would have gotten them honestly from Kaladin. But then he back pedals, and says how Kaladin would want them back anyway. If Amaram admired the warrior Kaladin is, and would have let Kaladin keep the shards, then why wouldn't he give the shards back if Kaladin asked for them if Kaladin was the better warrior? So to me, what it comes down to it is the one sentence in all of this that was the truth "You see, the men must believe that I killed him". Amaram had to be the one to win the shards. He had to have the glory. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Quote shown below:

 

Way of Kings Page 702

"Look" kaladin said "Those Shards are mine. Well, I said to give them to Coreb. He's the highest ranked of my soldiers, and the best fighter among them."

......

"I couldn't risk them telling what they saw. This is what must be, soldier. It's for the good of the army. They're going to be told that your squad helped the Shardbearer. You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

"You're taking the Shards for yourself!"

"I am trained in the sword" Amaram said "and am accustomed to plate. It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards."

"you could have asked me for them! Storm you!"

"And when news got around camp?" Amaram said grimly "That you'd killed the Shardbearer but I had the Shards? Nobody would believe that you'd given them up of your own free choice. Besides, son. You wouldn't have let me keep them." Amaram shook his head "You'd have changed your mind. in a day or two, you'd have wanted the wealth and the prestige - others would convince you of it. You'd have demanded that I return them to you. 

 

So Amaram is caught multiple times in a lie here. First he claims he is doing it because he is the most skilled, yet just a few moments earlier Kaladin, as owner of the plate and blade, gave them to Coreb, who he stated was the highest ranked and best fighter on his team. So it is not about skill, because it would have gone to the person Kaladin deemed the most skilled in the fine tradition that kings and rulers even follow. The king or ruler owns the plate, but a battle worthy individual wields it for the king or ruler. Then when Kaladin says he would have given Amaram the shards, Amaram claims it is because nobody would believe that he would have gotten them honestly from Kaladin. But then he back pedals, and says how Kaladin would want them back anyway. If Amaram admired the warrior Kaladin is, and would have let Kaladin keep the shards, then why wouldn't he give the shards back if Kaladin asked for them if Kaladin was the better warrior? So to me, what it comes down to it is the one sentence in all of this that was the truth "You see, the men must believe that I killed him". Amaram had to be the one to win the shards. He had to have the glory. 

Yay, Pathfinder, my Amaram bro!

I think you read the thing about Coreb wrong. Kaladin wants one of his own men to have the Blade, and out of the remaining ones, Coreb was the most skilled. That does not mean that Coreb is more skilled than Amaram. I would argue that it is likely that Amaram is the better fighter, but that is beside the point. Kaladin doesn’t consider Coreb the best fighter around, just the best of those he commands. 

As for the second point, it is quite likely that people would assume Amaram stole the Shards, even if Kaladin gave them to him. I dont think Amaram is wrong in that aspect. Also, again, it is not necessarily so that Amaram considers Kaladin to be a better warrior than him (after all, Amaram was quite the powerhouse in OB, when fighting a fully powered, experienced and non-depressed Kaladin, despite having his body torn apart and being entirely unexperienced with all his new powers). He would just see Kaladin as a warrior of great skill. Furthermore, having plate for two days before giving them back to the one you got them from wouldnt really be that fun. 

I dont think that Amaram did it just for the glory. I actually think that he wanted the Shards without harming his reputation, and claiming the glory was the best way to go to achieve that. 

I dont have WoK right now, so I cant provide quotes, but it seemed to me that Amaram was quite triggered about the fact that Kaladin rejected Shards and just gave them away, as if he didnt see their full value I think that fact was a part of his decision, along with his lust for glory and power, and Restares convincing. 

[Pathfinder]

18 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Yay, Pathfinder, my Amaram bro!

I think you read the thing about Coreb wrong. Kaladin wants one of his own men to have the Blade, and out of the remaining ones, Coreb was the most skilled. That does not mean that Coreb is more skilled than Amaram. I would argue that it is likely that Amaram is the better fighter, but that is beside the point. Kaladin doesn’t consider Coreb the best fighter around, just the best of those he commands. 

Nope. As far as I am concerned, it read it exactly as intended. If the argument put forward, was that Amaram had a problem with it only because Kaladin rejected the Shards, then Amaram should, as per honor, vorin tradition, and society, respected Kaladin's choice in picking what Kaladin feels is the most effective fighter to use them. I would argue right back that if it was not for Kaladin, Coreb and the rest, Amaram would have been dead. Amaram and his troops broke before the enemy. It was Kaladin's men that saved them. So I do not think Amaram has a leg to stand on (literally as his horse fell on his leg) to say that he is the better fighter. 

Quote

As for the second point, it is quite likely that people would assume Amaram stole the Shards, even if Kaladin gave them to him. I dont think Amaram is wrong in that aspect. Also, again, it is not necessarily so that Amaram considers Kaladin to be a better warrior than him (after all, Amaram was quite the powerhouse in OB, when fighting a fully powered, experienced and non-depressed Kaladin, despite having his body torn apart and being entirely unexperienced with all his new powers). He would just see Kaladin as a warrior of great skill. Furthermore, having plate for two days before giving them back to the one you got them from wouldnt really be that fun. 

A warrior of great skill that earned the plate that Amaram set up a lie in order to be seen as the legitimate owner. Doesn't matter if it is fun or not. The honorable, vorin, cultural thing to do would be to take them (as we see mentioned numerous times as per tradition), and if Kaladin asked for them back, to give them back. It is said at least 5 times. Amaram would have no recourse to refuse, unless he dueled Kaladin which would bring shame upon him. So instead he did the equivalency of a back alley stabbing. But again, this is in response to the point you and @Grytorm posited. That the reason Amaram did what he did was:

"And I have always had this idea that Amaram might not have stolen the shards if Kaladin had taken them"

Kaladin did take them. He bequethed his ownership to Coreb as the one to take them. An individual Kaladin named as a great fighter and capable soldier. As per tradition, vorin, and culture, that is valid and binding. Amaram stole them for himself. 

Quote

I dont think that Amaram did it just for the glory. I actually think that he wanted the Shards without harming his reputation, and claiming the glory was the best way to go to achieve that. 

Can you please quote me something where Amaram says this? I quoted the book and to me Amaram stated very clearly "You see, the men must believe that I killed him."

And once again go back to all the other quotes. Where Amaram says Taln can return to glory. That Amaram and Dalinar should go with just Dalinar's army to face the parshendi for glory. That Jasnah stated Amaram would tear their armies apart just to be seen as the savior (yet again glory). The religion he wants to bring back to power, its main tenet is gaining glory through following your calling. 

Quote

I dont have WoK right now, so I cant provide quotes, but it seemed to me that Amaram was quite triggered about the fact that Kaladin rejected Shards and just gave them away, as if he didnt see their full value I think that fact was a part of his decision, along with his lust for glory and power, and Restares convincing. 

When you do get your WoK, please let me know, because I would prefer quotes to support that view. At this rate I may really have to block off a chunk of time to write that thread where I pull up every Amaram quote, because what I have seen so far, definitely stresses glory. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

First he claims he is doing it because he is the most skilled, yet just a few moments earlier Kaladin, as owner of the plate and blade, gave them to Coreb, who he stated was the highest ranked and best fighter on his team

I am not sure this means much of anything to Amaram.  These are darkeyes we are talking about.

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

then he back pedals, and says how Kaladin would want them back anyway. If Amaram admired the warrior Kaladin is, and would have let Kaladin keep the shards, then why wouldn't he give the shards back if Kaladin asked for them if Kaladin was the better warrior?

I just meant he would have to come up with an even more convoluted justification. 

[I lost my flute]

This is also the same guy who wanted

Spoiler

to bring back the voidbringers so that the heralds will return and lead them

And to think people actually looked up to him.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not sure this means much of anything to Amaram.  These are darkeyes we are talking about.

True true. Amaram did remark how Taln's dark eyes must be a disguise. A dark eyed herald does not fit in with the vorin narrative. 

17 hours ago, Karger said:

 

I just meant he would have to come up with an even more convoluted justification. 

Ah gotcha. Though my intention was more to respond to the other's suggestion that Amaram would accept Kaladin claiming the plate and blade because he is a warrior, when to me, Kaladin did claim it, and Amaram did not respect his decision upon claiming it. 

17 hours ago, I lost my flute said:

This is also the same guy who wanted

  Reveal hidden contents

to bring back the voidbringers so that the heralds will return and lead them

And to think people actually looked up to him.

Yeah, consciously acting to bring about the end of the world is a pretty big problem I have with Amaram. 

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Yeah, consciously acting to bring about the end of the world is a pretty big problem I have with Amaram. 

I mean he seems like a nice guy... No.  We all have to have hobbies?  He thinks it will be a good thing?  Um...

[CosmicSieve]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Ah gotcha. Though my intention was more to respond to the other's suggestion that Amaram would accept Kaladin claiming the plate and blade because he is a warrior, when to me, Kaladin did claim it, and Amaram did not respect his decision upon claiming it. 

My point was more that Kaladin refused to pick the Shards up himself, and so he remained darkeyed. If he had picked them up himself, he would have become lighteyed. I think the Sons of Honor had a problem with that. If Kaladin would just become lighteyed, it would prove the Almighty's favor. Staying darkeyed and being a slayer of a Shardbearer and handing out Shards like some kind of noble kinda messes with the ideas of Vorinism the Sons of Honor were so intent to promote. 

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

My point was more that Kaladin refused to pick the Shards up himself, and so he remained darkeyed. If he had picked them up himself, he would have become lighteyed. I think the Sons of Honor had a problem with that. If Kaladin would just become lighteyed, it would prove the Almighty's favor. Staying darkeyed and being a slayer of a Shardbearer and handing out Shards like some kind of noble kinda messes with the ideas of Vorinism the Sons of Honor were so intent to promote. 

Having your eyes change color takes time from bonding. When Moash was gifted the shards by Kaladin, Adolin stated Moash immediately gains the standing associated from owning plate and blade. Once you win them, they are yours, period, to do with what you wish. There isn't some "transitional" stage where you have them, but you don't technically own them. Kaladin said it himself. He claimed them. He then chose to bestow his claim to another person. He did the exact same thing with Adolin and Dalinar. There was no discussion of him not being a light eyes then. So I do not see how what Kaladin did with Amaram, is any different in any way than with Adolin and Dalinar. 

 

Words of Radiance page 781

"Fine" Adolin said, striding back into the room "You. Moash, was it? I guess those Shards are yours, now. Congratulations. You now outrank ninety percent of Alethkar. Pick yourself a family name and ask to join one of the houses under Dalinar's banner, or start your own if you are inclined"

 

Literally Kaladin won the shards. He owns them and holds the rank. He named Moash. Moash now owns the shards and is of rank. Pretty cut and dry.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[CosmicSieve]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Having your eyes change color takes time from bonding. When Moash was gifted the shards by Kaladin, Adolin stated Moash immediately gains the standing associated from owning plate and blade. Once you win them, they are yours, period, to do with what you wish. There isn't some "transitional" stage where you have them, but you don't technically own them. Kaladin said it himself. He claimed them. He then chose to bestow his claim to another person. He did the exact same thing with Adolin and Dalinar. There was no discussion of him not being a light eyes then. So I do not see how what Kaladin did with Amaram, is any different in any way than with Adolin and Dalinar. 

 

Words of Radiance page 781

"Fine" Adolin said, striding back into the room "You. Moash, was it? I guess those Shards are yours, now. Congratulations. You now outrank ninety percent of Alethkar. Pick yourself a family name and ask to join one of the houses under Dalinar's banner, or start your own if you are inclined"

 

Literally Kaladin won the shards. He owns them and holds the rank. He named Moash. Moash now owns the shards and is of rank. Pretty cut and dry.

Dalinar and Adolin are not the Sons of Honor, and there goal isn't to reestablish the power of the Vorin church at all costs. I think the different reactions of the Sons of Honor and Adolin backs up my point. A darkeyes getting Shards was something out of legend up to that point. Adolin mentions a lighteyed archer kill stealing a Shardbearer from spearmen, and Jost's father grumbled about having killed a Shardbearer and having the Shards stolen (sounded like a tall tale at the time but in retrospect if he was part of a group of spearmen it could well have been a situation like the one with the archer), but that's as close in modern times as we get t the legends until the situations with Kaladin. In both cases he refuses to take up the Shards, and tries to give them away to other darkeyes. As far as I know there is no precedent for granting Shards to a darkeye who didn't earn them, and Moash does make some comment on how people just don't know what to make of him. 

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

Dalinar and Adolin are not the Sons of Honor, and there goal isn't to reestablish the power of the Vorin church at all costs. I think the different reactions of the Sons of Honor and Adolin backs up my point. A darkeyes getting Shards was something out of legend up to that point. Adolin mentions a lighteyed archer kill stealing a Shardbearer from spearmen, and Jost's father grumbled about having killed a Shardbearer and having the Shards stolen (sounded like a tall tale at the time but in retrospect if he was part of a group of spearmen it could well have been a situation like the one with the archer), but that's as close in modern times as we get t the legends until the situations with Kaladin. In both cases he refuses to take up the Shards, and tries to give them away to other darkeyes. As far as I know there is no precedent for granting Shards to a darkeye who didn't earn them, and Moash does make some comment on how people just don't know what to make of him. 

There is a grand tradition of people owning shards and lending them out to others. As per Vorinism, if you win them, you own them. Doesn't matter whether you are light eyes or dark. Full stop. Anything else on Amaram's part is purely rationalization in an attempt to excuse what he did. Which was stealing and killing. The lighteyed archer got the plate because he got the kill and thereby won the shards. Kaladin pointed out that Jost's father was no where near the right region where shards were being employed in battle so Jost's father lied. Regardless I feel like this is taking an awful lot a tangential information, and trying to string it together to mean something completely different. As per the tradition, if you win the shards, they are yours, and you can do whatever you want with them. There isn't any fine print stating a 5 second rule like when food touches the floor. Amaram doesn't get to say "hey he is giving them away to the wrong person! I get to call dibs!". Its not his right to say. It is not his call. Kaladin said "Those shards are mine". And they are. He could bequeath them to a snail. The snail would get to have fun trying to defend itself from others trying to duel it, but it doesn't change that the ownership would transfer to the snail. Nothing in Vorinism (and by extension the Sons of Honor) says otherwise.  

Edited July 31, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

23 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

(sounded like a tall tale at the time but in retrospect if he was part of a group of spearmen it could well have been a situation like the one with the archer

It was not.  The Reshi do not have shards and if they did they would not use them in border raids.

23 minutes ago, CosmicSieve said:

Moash does make some comment on how people just don't know what to make of him. 

That is because they are dealing with something they have never seen before but the law is explicit.  If you have a blade you are of the forth dahn and anyone can give anyone else a blade by right of bestowal(Adolin does so with Renarin).  Also in terms of manners education and beliefs he is a darkeyes but he is a lighteyes according to law.  Also lets take this somewhere else this is not the right thread.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Karger