Amaram, Inconsistent and Believable

[Pathfinder]

11 hours ago, galendo said:

This isn't a bad idea.  If Amaram's bargain with Odium predated his ascention to Highprince, at a time when Amaram's opportunities looked less favorable, then it might have made sense for him to defect.  The only real issues are, first, that Amaram still seems quite pleased with himself at the end of WoR even though he already knows that Taln is completely broken.  So finding out that the Heralds are mad can't really be a major influence of his decision even if he decides to take Odium's word for it, which is questionable in itself.  The other issue is that if Amaram did switch sides earlier, then Odium is giving up a highly placed agent for no real purpose at the battle of Thaylen City.  Odium doesn't even want Amaram as his champion.  There's not much reason for Odium to break Amaram's cover.

Either way, though, I think that Amaram definitely should have had a viewpoint during OB.  It would have added a lot.

There's a lot in this post I take some issue with.  First, an opinion: I've never seen Amaram as the jealous type.  I've certainly never seen anything that would suggest that he's jealous of Kaladin of all people.  He's greedy, yes.  Insecure, arguably.  Narcissistic, most definitely (or at least, he cultivates his immaculate image relentlessly; but then again, so does Jasnah).

Second, It's also worth noting that Amaram didn't set himself up as commander of the KR despite not having powers.  Dalinar set him up as commander of the KR at a time when nobody had powers, as far as they knew.  It's not even entirely clear that Amaram believed at that time that the old Radiants truly had magic powers, though given his membership in the Sons of Honor he probably did.  Certainly neither had any knowledge of the true methods or requirements for becoming Radiant.

Third, Amaram does not model his "honest general" persona after Dalinar.  Amaram was doing the upstanding general thing way before Dalinar, probably when Dalinar was still a drunken wreck of a man after the Rift and before Cultivation.  It's even altogether possible that Amaram actually was trying to be an upstanding brightlord.  He fails first with Kaladin and then with Dalinar when his greed gets the better of him, but other than that he's been pretty much the ideal Alethi lighteyes.  I think that's part of why his sudden betrayal comes so far out of left field.  His previous failings were both due to greed, but his turncoat moment involves him willingly giving up all the wealth/position/power/respect that he's amassed, none of which is negligible.

I dunno, it all seems pretty out of character.  I might change my mind when I reach the battle of Thaylen City, but so far Amaram's always been cautious.  The public declaration of treachery goes against everything he's built over the past decade or so, and what does he get out of it?  Basically nothing.  I might have been able to see it had Amaram been shown to be hungry for Radiant powers and somehow convinced that Odium was his only reasonable path to get there, but neither of those things seem particularly plausible.

So a few things. First, (to me) Amaram only had Taln to go by and may have reasoned once the desolation goes into full effect, he will regain his lucidity. Since Taln didn't regain his lucidity, and we don't know what Odium showed Amaram, I think it is still plausible that Amaram at that point could have switched sides. As to Odium giving up a highly prized agent, I disagree. If Amaram had switched sides that early, then Odium would have had a spy telling him all of the battle plans. As highlord Sadeas, Amaram was present during all the tactical meetings. When he wasn't, Ialai was, and through Ialai he would know what was being done. Had Dalinar thought Jah Keved was the real attack in error, then Amaram was perfectly positioned to take Thaylenah at Odium's behest. If Dalinar switched to Thaylenah and sent Amaram to Jah Keved like Amaram asked, then both places would have fallen in one fell swoop. Basically because of Amaram's intel, Odium would always be prepared for team radiant's attacks. 

I am the one dissenting voice on this. I personally do not think anything would be truly added to the narrative by giving Amaram additional viewpoints. But that is just my own view. 

I still go back to Sadeas and Jasnah. Amaram the "upstanding brightlord" is a lie. To me he wasn't actually trying to be what he claimed he was. It was a facade. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I am the one dissenting voice on this. I personally do not think anything would be truly added to the narrative by giving Amaram additional viewpoints. But that is just my own view.

I think the desire for a viewpoint or 2 from Amaram stems from the fact that he has had a significant role in the backstories of at least 2 of our Radiants and had so much power at his behest. We've seen on screen how he mangled Kaladin, Jasnah's reaction to him strongly suggests that their dealings in the past were quite unfavorable, he was at the Rift when Dalinar went full rampage war crime mode, he was Gavilar's co-conspirator regarding the Sons of Honor. Dude was important, important enough in some people's minds to deserve some sort of voice for closure's sake. I'm not necessarily agreeing that that was necessary as I recognize a writer decision when I see one. Let's just say that although I'd have liked at least one small viewpoint from him, I'm not losing any sleep over not having to live in his head for a few moments. YMMV of course.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think the desire for a viewpoint or 2 from Amaram stems from the fact that he has had a significant role in the backstories of at least 2 of our Radiants and had so much power at his behest. We've seen on screen how he mangled Kaladin, Jasnah's reaction to him strongly suggests that their dealings in the past were quite unfavorable, he was at the Rift when Dalinar went full rampage war crime mode, he was Gavilar's co-conspirator regarding the Sons of Honor. Dude was important, important enough in some people's minds to deserve some sort of voice for closure's sake. I'm not necessarily agreeing that that was necessary as I recognize a writer decision when I see one. Let's just say that although I'd have liked at least one small viewpoint from him, I'm not losing any sleep over not having to live in his head for a few moments. YMMV of course.

Totally understand and respect that, and I also readily admit this is my own opinion, and not in any way shape or form saying my opinion is the right one. Just for myself I think the perspectives of the other characters in those scenes told me all I needed to know. Kaladin experiencing Amaram's treatment tells me everything I need to know. Jasnah's reaction to him, and then her flashbacks of him will tell me everything I need to know. The interlude that we will one day get of Gavilar interacting with him will also tell me everything I need to know. For me, yes he positioned himself well. He was in a position of influence as a light eyes, then as part of the sons of honor, and as a high marshal that it would make sense for him to be at all those locations. But Dalinar has plenty of generals and officers that are present during moments of importance and we do not need their PoV. So I do not feel for myself we need one for Amaram. For myself Amaram as a character is broken down in a few steps

 

1. Amaram the honorable highlord

2. Amaram the betrayer

3. Amaram the honorable highlord confirmed to be a lie by both Sadeas, Jasnah, Adolin (by suspicion), Kaladin (by experience), and Dalinar (by experience)

4. Amaram switches sides to Odium

5. Amaram the dead

 

For me I do not see anything deeper to the character. But I realize others do. Just like plenty of people do not see anything deeper to Jasnah while I see tons. So again totally acknowledge other people's opinions on wanting to see more viewpoints of Amaram are totally valid. I am just an outlier where I do not think for myself that we do need them, and this post was just to explain my thoughts further. Not intending to disagree with your own thoughts or opinions. 

[ShardShaper he/him]

Just a question, how come all of you are excusing Amaram, but villainizing Moash? Moash may be a bit of a turd biscuit, but he was only a little bit of a turd Roshone & Elhokar baked him into a biscuit, AND I think we can all justify his decision to go after Elhokar.

[Calyx]

1 hour ago, ShardShaper said:

Just a question, how come all of you are excusing Amaram, but villainizing Moash? Moash may be a bit of a turd biscuit, but he was only a little bit of a turd Roshone & Elhokar baked him into a biscuit, AND I think we can all justify his decision to go after Elhokar.

See, we know these things about Moash and how he explicitly rejected trying to become better, because we've seen inside his head. As unenjoyable as those chapters are, I'm glad we have them - at the very least it allows me to hate Moash more.

In the case of Amaram, I'm genuinely curious why somebody with almost every conceivable advantage would betray his country to essentially fight alongside crazy seeming parshmen. Up until the moment of his decision to side with Odium, he could have asked Dalinar for forgiveness and would in all likelihood have received it. Instead he... doesn't, and I don't know why. Was he just a douche with no redeeming qualities? Was his secret plan as a Son of Honor for some reason to gain power from Odium? Did he actually view things he did as bad, allowing Odium to take responsibility for them? Was he throwing a tantrum about not being as respected as he thought he deserved? We don't know, and that is why I wish we had Amaram viewpoint chapters.

Moash was in a similar situation. Up until killing Elhokar, he could have asked for and received forgiveness from Kaladin. He didn't, but chapters from his perspective allow us to understand how his past with Roshone and Elhokar and his anger underpin his decisions. Amaram doesn't get the same treatment, despite being far more important and his betrayal having far more immediate impact.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Calyx

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Calyx said:

See, we know these things about Moash and how he explicitly rejected trying to become better, because we've seen inside his head. As unenjoyable as those chapters are, I'm glad we have them - at the very least it allows me to hate Moash more.

In the case of Amaram, I'm genuinely curious why somebody with almost every conceivable advantage would betray his country to essentially fight alongside crazy seeming parshmen. Up until the moment of his decision to side with Odium, he could have asked Dalinar for forgiveness and would in all likelihood have received it. Instead he... doesn't, and I don't know why. Was he just a douche with no redeeming qualities? Was his secret plan as a Son of Honor for some reason to gain power from Odium? Did he actually view things he did as bad, allowing Odium to take responsibility for them? Was he throwing a tantrum about not being as respected as he thought he deserved? We don't know, and that is why I wish we had Amaram viewpoint chapters.

Moash was in a similar situation. Up until killing Elhokar, he could have asked for and received forgiveness from Kaladin. He didn't, but chapters from his perspective allow us to understand how his past with Roshone and Elhokar and his anger underpin his decisions. Amaram doesn't get the same treatment, despite being far more important and his betrayal having far more immediate impact.

But in order for Amaram to ask for forgiveness, he would have had to admit everything he did was his own fault. That to me was the whole point of his dialogue with Kaladin during their last fight. Amaram just wouldn't own up to his responsibility like how Dalinar and Szeth did. Odium gave him that way out. All the lives that Amaram destroyed in the name of his religion as the "paragon of virtue" was a lie. It was always on Amaram. He couldn't handle it. He couldn't own up. So he ran. 

 

Edit: just had a thought. Technically I think we have seen how Odium convinced amaram to join the voidbringers.  We got a front row seat to it for dalinar.  All Odium had to do was show that the heralds lied which amaram already has a degree of proof for regarding taln and then make amaram relive every moment he killed someone or harmed someone in pursuit of returning the heralds. Make him experience all the pain of the people suffering at the hands of the desolation and say "it's not your fault amaram. It was me. It was always me. Let me take your pain". Just like he did with dalinar.  Just amaram takes him up on the offer while dalinar refused

Edited April 19, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

All Odium had to do was show that the heralds lied which amaram already has a degree of proof for regarding taln and then make amaram relive every moment he killed someone or harmed someone in pursuit of returning the heralds.

Odium didn't even have to do this. Dalinar did it for him by publishing his visions. Which is why I've said all along that I understand the progression Amaram took... I'd just have liked to see even hints towards it. 

There's no need to have gone inside his head. Not even a need for any additional scenes. Just notes of an odd reaction reading a vision, or some irritability and obvious cracks in his pious act. 

It all makes sense to me. There's nothing to make me question why he turned. I just wish it had been foreshadowed, rather than left for me to fill in the gaps with what we do know. 

[Rushu42 she/her]

On the topic of chapters from Amaram's point of view, I think that that would be really interesting. However, I also really like the way Sanderson wrote the books that we have. It's quite possible that wedging hisperspective in there would just be distracting or even repetetive, what with Dalinar's struggle. However, I've read several statements by Sanderson that claim that he's okay with writing from the perspective of dead characters. This is referring to main characters in later books,  but it could also extend to something from Amaram, if it becomes relevant again. And we have seen characters in the Cosmere come back from the dead. 

This isn't to say that I want Amaram back, or think that he's going to come back, but we shouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of hearing more from him in the future.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Okay, everyone knows my stance on Amaram, but I’ll post anyway:

Amaram is no bad guy. He is too full of himself, and a religious fanatic. But he is created by his environment. His mother probably created his wish to become the greatest general in Alethkar, and his narcissistic traits are probably something that she gave him. And I assume that he always found the Vorin faith important, and, like some religious people today, disliked the growing secularism in Vorin society. When Gavilar took him in (I think Amaram was relatively young then, but I’m not certain) he probably saw it as a huge honor and a step towards the purpose his mother gave him. 

I also think that the nice Amaram isn’t a complete facade. Amaram wants to be good. He mourns the fact that so many will die, he needs to be convinced by Restares into killing Kaladins men, and spares Kaladin. This is also what breaks him. His will to be good, but the fact that he is too weak to step away from evil actions. 

I also think that Amarams purpose is good, in his worldview. He wants to save souls. The way he wants to do it in is wrong though. He does have at least partially good intentions with his actions.

So, in short, I read Amaram as a weak person who wants to do the right thing but is too weak, too corrupted and too selfish to do so. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Toaster Retribution

Every villian is a hero of his or her own story, is that what you're going with regarding Amaram? That and he's a victim of his upbringing? I reject that interpretation because it robs him of agency. Dalinar was raised to be a blood-thirsty war machine and he most certainly was. But he'd be the first to tell you that his hands were on the sword that slayed thousands. He doesn't try to fost off responsibilities for his actions on his culture or the Thrill or Odium's left pinky toe. Amaram shows some remorse? Some humanity? All well and good. He still committed atrocities and was unrepentant for them.  He still betrayed people that trusted him, that earned trust. That's my take on it. I'll admit my own bias. I have a thing about betrayal. It's why I wanna punch Moash in his fat face until his nose explodes. It's why I wanted to throttle Kaladin when he was killing Syl. Betrayal is my pet peeve.  But anyway, Amaram. Right.  I think dude's a bad guy. You are of course entitled to your own interpretation of the guy. All I'll say is,good or bad, I'm not picking that dude to lead my army.

[Pathfinder]

On 4/19/2019 at 7:47 PM, Calderis said:

Odium didn't even have to do this. Dalinar did it for him by publishing his visions. Which is why I've said all along that I understand the progression Amaram took... I'd just have liked to see even hints towards it. 

There's no need to have gone inside his head. Not even a need for any additional scenes. Just notes of an odd reaction reading a vision, or some irritability and obvious cracks in his pious act. 

It all makes sense to me. There's nothing to make me question why he turned. I just wish it had been foreshadowed, rather than left for me to fill in the gaps with what we do know. 

Totally respect your opinion. I disagree but have already said why at length, so I wouldn't really be adding anything. I do think we will potentially get more of that angle from Jasnah's PoV as when they were younger Gavilar tried to push them together. To me if anyone knew the "real" Amaram and his progression, it would be Jasnah. 

On 4/20/2019 at 3:12 PM, Rushu42 said:

On the topic of chapters from Amaram's point of view, I think that that would be really interesting. However, I also really like the way Sanderson wrote the books that we have. It's quite possible that wedging hisperspective in there would just be distracting or even repetetive, what with Dalinar's struggle. However, I've read several statements by Sanderson that claim that he's okay with writing from the perspective of dead characters. This is referring to main characters in later books,  but it could also extend to something from Amaram, if it becomes relevant again. And we have seen characters in the Cosmere come back from the dead. 

This isn't to say that I want Amaram back, or think that he's going to come back, but we shouldn't entirely rule out the possibility of hearing more from him in the future.

My one thing about this is that the writing characters that are dead are regarding flash back characters who each get their own book and are at this point relatively locked in. They are Eshonai, Szeth, Renarin, Jasnah, Ash, Taln, and Lift (not in that order). So although I think we will get more info about Amaram through Jasnah's flashback, I do not see it being a flashback for Amaram. 

19 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Okay, everyone knows my stance on Amaram, but I’ll post anyway:

Amaram is no bad guy. He is too full of himself, and a religious fanatic. But he is created by his environment. His mother probably created his wish to become the greatest general in Alethkar, and his narcissistic traits are probably something that she gave him. And I assume that he always found the Vorin faith important, and, like some religious people today, disliked the growing secularism in Vorin society. When Gavilar took him in (I think Amaram was relatively young then, but I’m not certain) he probably saw it as a huge honor and a step towards the purpose his mother gave him. 

I also think that the nice Amaram isn’t a complete facade. Amaram wants to be good. He mourns the fact that so many will die, he needs to be convinced by Restares into killing Kaladins men, and spares Kaladin. This is also what breaks him. His will to be good, but the fact that he is too weak to step away from evil actions. 

I also think that Amarams purpose is good, in his worldview. He wants to save souls. The way he wants to do it in is wrong though. He does have at least partially good intentions with his actions.

So, in short, I read Amaram as a weak person who wants to do the right thing but is too weak, too corrupted and too selfish to do so. 

As I said with Calderis, I disagree, but have already written at length as to why so I do not want to bog this thread down or cause you to feel you cannot relate your opinion because of repeating my own. Suffice it to say, I believe the information we get from the other characters clashes with this. 

[galendo]

On 4/18/2019 at 2:00 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

I agree that it would have been favorable to have some sort of Amaram POV. Maybe in an interlude or something. But there's hints in story that his public image isn't real. In WoK where he makes and forgets his promise to Kaladin regarding Tien. In WoR when Sadeas tells him straight out that he knows where all his bodies are buried. Or when he supposedly tries to heal the rift between Dalinar and Sadeas by telling Dalinar that his public image and flexible moral character makes him a perfect bridge. Or in OB when he believes Dalinar killed Sadeas and attempts to praise him for the master stroke. I would have liked to have seen it explicitly in the text but we had more than enough clues if reading between the lines.

As for his heel turn coming out of nowhere, well after WOR his reputation, his pristine public image, was blown to shreads, unfairly so in his opinion. At the same time his faith was shattered upon spending time with the Ancient of Stone. So the 2 things that served as a bedrock for his worldview both broke at the same time. The important thing is that he thought he was blameless. Honor failed him by letting him suffer even as he dedicated his life to healing all the world's ills. Odium comes in and confirms his blamelessness. To me it seemed inevitable that Amaram would turn, I was only surprised at the timing.

I'll give you that his public image wasn't real.  No question about that.  If he'd actually been the honorable man he pretended to be, he wouldn't have murdered the men who saved his life.  But...you say that his public image was blown to shreds after WoR, and that just didn't happen.  The only bad thing is that Dalinar asked him to resign his post as head Radiant, and chances are most Alethi thought it was a pretty silly position anyway.  There is no in-book evidence, that I'm aware of, to suggest that Amaram's public approval was in any way harmed by the events of WoR.  It certainly wasn't bad enough to prevent him being named Highprince Sadeas.

On 4/18/2019 at 9:50 AM, Philomath said:

I don’t agree with this part of what you are saying. Dalinar’s good reputation among the Alethi was well established long before the Shattered Plains. He had well trained, well behaved soldiers who were well respected. They had been trained not to loot, rape, pillage, etc. If anything, Dalinar’s reputation was weakened at the Shattered Plains. And Amaram was a shady figure before the Shattered Plains as well. He was already well mixed up in the Son’s of Honor before Gavilar’s assassination. And he was already an “ends justify the means person.”

Sorry, but this is just wrong.  Dalinar's armies were known to pillage -- that's how he was able to convince that archer to join his side, by telling him Dalinar's men wouldn't pillage his town if he joined Dalinar's side.  That's not the kind of threat that has any teeth if your enemy is known for mercy.  True, Dalinar didn't like doing so, and perfered not to when avoidable, but that's a far cry from having an upstanding reputation.

After the Rift, where Dalinar literally burned innocent civilians to death, even his own men were disgusted with him.  That's what forced one of his men to become an ardent.  Dalinar did not have a good reputation.  There is no way that Amaram modeled his perfect lighteyes persona after Dalinar of all people.

On 4/18/2019 at 11:53 AM, Pathfinder said:

So a few things. First, (to me) Amaram only had Taln to go by and may have reasoned once the desolation goes into full effect, he will regain his lucidity. Since Taln didn't regain his lucidity, and we don't know what Odium showed Amaram, I think it is still plausible that Amaram at that point could have switched sides. As to Odium giving up a highly prized agent, I disagree. If Amaram had switched sides that early, then Odium would have had a spy telling him all of the battle plans. As highlord Sadeas, Amaram was present during all the tactical meetings. When he wasn't, Ialai was, and through Ialai he would know what was being done. Had Dalinar thought Jah Keved was the real attack in error, then Amaram was perfectly positioned to take Thaylenah at Odium's behest. If Dalinar switched to Thaylenah and sent Amaram to Jah Keved like Amaram asked, then both places would have fallen in one fell swoop. Basically because of Amaram's intel, Odium would always be prepared for team radiant's attacks.

But that's my point.  I totally understand why Odium wouldn't want Amaram to switch sides any earlier because of all those benefits you mention.  The part that isn't obvious to me is why Odium would want Amaram to switch sides even at the battle of Thaylen City.  If Amaram already belongs to Odium, why not give the Yelig-Nar stone to someone Odium could afford to lose rather than sacrifice his valuable and highly-placed mole?  Seems like pretty poor strategy to me.

As to Amaram being disappointed by Taln...I'm not saying it's not a kinda-sorta-plausible explanation, but it does seem something of a stretch.  And that's the reason why an Amaram viewpoint would have been so vital.  If we could've seen his disillusionment, then his treachery wouldn't have come completely out of left field.  Instead all we can do is string together tenuous chains of maybe.  Maybe Amaram became disillusioned with Taln.  Maybe Odium contacted him during the Everstorm.  Maybe Amaram fell prey to Odium's blandishments.  Maybe he was biding his time until the Thaylen City battle.  Maybe Odium had some reason to call him out.  Maybe, maybe, maybe.  It all hangs together like a tenuous spiderweb: possible, certainly, but seemingly ever more improbable.

On 4/21/2019 at 0:20 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

So, in short, I read Amaram as a weak person who wants to do the right thing but is too weak, too corrupted and too selfish to do so. 

 

On 4/21/2019 at 7:29 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

But anyway, Amaram. Right.  I think dude's a bad guy. You are of course entitled to your own interpretation of the guy. All I'll say is,good or bad, I'm not picking that dude to lead my army.

The cool thing is that both of these opinions can be correct.  I agree that Amaram was someone who wanted, for the most part, to do the right thing.  He may or may not have wanted to do the right thing for the right reasons (he's pretty selfish and wants other people to think well of him), but he did generally want to do the right thing.  In fact, I see a sort-of parallel between Amaram's betrayal of Kaladin's squad and Kaladin's betrayal of Elhokar.  Granted Amaram's actions are the worse of the two, but in both cases there's a sort of "for the greater good" argument that's tainted more than a little by personal motivations.

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Totally respect your opinion. I disagree but have already said why at length, so I wouldn't really be adding anything. I do think we will potentially get more of that angle from Jasnah's PoV as when they were younger Gavilar tried to push them together. To me if anyone knew the "real" Amaram and his progression, it would be Jasnah.

Not to nitpick (okay, kind of to nitpick), but what do you think we could possibly learn about Amaram from one of Jasnah's flashbacks that would possibly have any bearing upon his present-day decisions?  I mean, even if we learn that he's a self-righteous prig who kicks his axehounds -- not improbable, and arguably somewhat likely, since we know that Jasnah dislikes him for some reason -- how does that possibly have any bearing on his current decisions?

Unless Jasnah's flashback sequence includes an OB-contemporaneous scene with her and Amaram, which now that I think about it might be kind of cool even if both unlikely and several books too late, I don't see how we're going to learn anything more about Amaram.  I mean, we'll probably learn that he's a delusional, misguided cremling...but it's not like we don't know that already.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@galendo

Amaram's public image after WOR is in tatters because Dalinar was going to put him on trial.  The war took precedence but Dalinar was not going to just forget about him. IMO, his shoddy reputation is exactly why he got the job as Sadeas Highprince.  Ialai knew that the appointment would stick in the craw of the man she felt was responsible for her husband's murder and had a fair chance of undermining his authority.  You cannot imagine Ialai actually giving Amaram any power outside of a martial context.  But even if his rep remained pristine after WOR he resented the fact that some people, powerful people, threw shade upon his actions.  Nobody recognized that although some of his actions were shady, he was working towards the greatest good in his opinion and that he should be praised for his dedication instead of ridiculed. Plus he was dumped on the word of a former bridgeman. What an insult.  Is Amaram petty enough to switch sides, to throw away everything he'd spent his life working towards over an insult like the one he endured? Judging from the fight with Kal at the end he is certainly that petty. Pettiness is the only thing that makes sense to me regarding Amaram considering how he had a golden opportunity to rehabilitate, restore at least some trust and cover himself in glory. 

As far as the Kaladin/Amaram parallel, the difference other than the severity of the betrayal is two-fold.  One, Amaram betrayed someone who had earned his trust, someone he owed his miserable life to. Helaran would have surely cut his butt in half were it not for a well placed knife by Stormblessed.  Meanwhile, the king was due protection through oath and position, but he never earned anything like Kaladin's loyalty.  The man would have had him killed were it not for Dalinar's intervention for pete's sake.  Obviously it would have been the wrong thing to do, but I don't know how much I could have really blamed Kal if he'd let Elkohar die.  But that brings me to two.  Amaram, lusting power, did the obviously wrong thing and felt guilty about it.  Kaladin, broken and thinking his power lost, was willing to die to fix his mistake, to do the right thing.  One does evil and makes excuses that show that he really was doing the right thing. The other puts his life on the line to address an issue he freely admits that he caused.  He not only takes responsibility for his screw up, he actively tries to fix it no matter what it would have cost him.

I agree that without that Amaram viewpoint we as readers are forced to guess at which point in the timeline that Amaram actually turned.  Brandon didn't leave many breadcrumbs hinting that he's switching teams but plenty about his questionable character.  But I think its a fair assessment that until the end of OB we didn't know Odium could turn anyone in the manner he turned Amaram and almost turned Dalinar.  I'm sure I didn't know that was in Odium's toolbox of skills.  Taravanginan had recruited himself.  I guess that since we got to witness Odium's sales pitch to Dalinar and Moash that it'd be only fair to get Amaram as well.  So was Amaram just a wasted character, someone full of potential who was snuffed out before he could make a truly momentus impact on the villian side?  Or is the fandom putting too much emphasis on a guy who wasn't important enough to get so much as an interlude chapter, who could have never been radiant and had proven time and time again that he didn't have the will to resist being gobbled up by Yelig-Nar? Maybe the two statements are not mutually exclusive.  For my two cents I think he was a perfect mid-tier antagonist, a good mini-boss for the middle book of a five book arc.  Brandon is just so good that he wrote Amaram in such a way as to have him stretch the role he placed him in.  It's the Adolin Principle. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Isilel]

I am among those who were greatly perplexed and disappointed by the Amaram's role in OB. Yes, Sanderson tried to make it kinda sorta maybe plausible, but there are still many incongrous elements, some of them even introduced or reinforced in OB, oddly enough. Basically, it is only after I have read the author's comments on writing on his homepage where he revealed that Amaram was supposed to die in WoR to Iyatil, while Sadeas was supposed to survive until very late into the writing process of that book, that Amaram's arc in OB started to make sense to me. He was just forced into the Torol-shaped hole there and did stuff that was meant for Torol. This perfectly explains all the contradictions and ommissions that made his plot look so contrived to me.

One of which was the complete absence of any evidence of the past great friendship between Amaram and Dalinar, so touted in WoR. In fact, in the current timeline there is no room for any such relationship to have ever evolved. OTOH, we got plenty of Dalinar - Torol friendship scenes, which retroactively illuminated their interactions in WoK and WoR in the new and interesting ways.

Also, all the intriguing hints at Amaram's hidden depths, like his secret scholarship, his flute collection, his cordial relationship with his household etc. were comprehensively ignored. As well as the elephant in the room - his relationship with Gavilar and how he knew about the basics of Dalinar's revelations for years prior to their release to the public - possibly for as many as a decade, even, and how it informed his actions.

 

On 20 April 2019 at 1:47 AM, Calderis said:

Odium didn't even have to do this. Dalinar did it for him by publishing his visions. Which is why I've said all along that I understand the progression Amaram took...

Except that Amaram knew about the visions for at least 6 years - from Gavilar. Just as as Taravangian did. Oddly enough, OB only confirmed this point by showing the 3 men together on the night of the assassination - and we had been already informed that that's when Gavilar confided in Taravangian. Now, Gavilar may not have related his visions in as much detail as Dalinar, nor prioritized the same things as his brother. However, Mr T. certainly got the jist of it.

I cannot be the only who expected the protagonists conflict with Amaram to be rooted in the comparison and clash of Gavilar's version and interpretation of the visions with Dalinar's, rather than just in personal animosities.

 

On 16 April 2019 at 10:42 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

In the past Amaram was at least trying to do "the right thing", following his King's lead to resurrect their lost holy leaders.  This is ethical from a consequentialist perspective (bringing back holy figures), he's essentially a dumber Taravangian in that regard.

Yes, the Amaram of WoK and WoR was very much in the same boat as Taravangian, working from the same information in Gavilar's visions but with the Vorinism-focussed approach. OB Amaram is very much Sadeas-redux - possibly because Sanderson decided that there _was_ too much similarity between Gavilar's 2 confidants and that it would have been repetitive. However, I feel that a religious strife angle between the Vorin true believer and Dalinar's factions, despite both also being against Odium,  would have made it fresh enough.

I have recently read a historical novel about the start of Dutch struggle for independence against Spain and how despite calvinists, lutherans and moderate catholics all being opposed to the Inquisition, their mutual distrust and disagreements constantly prevented the formation of a common front and made Spanish Netherlands, as they were then, an easy prey for the Duke of Alba. I now realise that I have been expecting something like that from the OB, with Dalinar in the role of William the Silent, trying to forge all those disparate elements into an alliance.

 

On 17 April 2019 at 7:47 PM, Rushu42 said:

Amaram stole Kaladin's Shardblade rather than asking for it because he was jealous of him. Amaram recognized in Kaladin the hero that he himself had always wanted to be.

Nope. The whole story of Tanalaan Jr. and his later claims that Dalinar "stole" Oathbringer from him demonstrates why Amaram didn't ask Kaladin for the shards, after Kal made it clear that he wasn't going to take them up himself. And I very much doubt that he would have done anything except recruiting Kaladin into the Sons of Honor, or trying to, if the latter claimed the shards for himself. Kaladin, after all, proved himself worthy in the proper Vorin way and had quite a reputation besides. But letting the shards go to some random dark-eyed soldier was too much for Amaram - and even then he had to be persuaded by others. Which already puts him ahead of many nobles in the books conscience-wise.

Not to mention that Amaram at that time was in a very similar situation to Jasnah in WoK and early WoR - he knew that the Final Desolation was coming and that they needed to prepare, but also that nobody would listen to the few SoH who were in the picture after Gavilar's death. That was likely the light in which the theft of the shards was presented to him by Restares. For the greater good, etc.

I find the claims that Jasnah would have been among those who knew Amaram best to be ironic, BTW, because there was so much that she didn't know about him. Like his hidden scholarship, which Shallan found to be pretty impressive, heh.

It is also not clear to me why Amaram would have concluded that he could never become a real Radiant after WoR?

 

On 18 April 2019 at 11:00 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

 But there's hints in story that his public image isn't real. In WoK where he makes and forgets his promise to Kaladin regarding Tien.

Except that OB, oddly enough, undermined this notion by revealing that Tien's death was the result of an actual Skybreaker conspiracy, rather than just of the negligence on Amaram's part, as it seemed previously.

 

Quote

In WoR when Sadeas tells him straight out that he knows where all his bodies are buried.

I have wondered whether Sadeas got wind of Amaram's theft of shards and was referring to it. Or something else that had to do with SoH. We'll never know, I guess.

 

Quote

As for his heel turn coming out of nowhere, well after WOR his reputation, his pristine public image, was blown to shreads, unfairly so in his opinion. At the same time his faith was shattered upon spending time with the Ancient of Stone.

Sure, OB tries to present it that way, but it is oddly jarring when one remembers that he wasn't particularly discouraged by either issue in his PoV in WoR and was actually rather optimistic and upbeat  heading out to Urithiru. Certainly, he was more disconcerted by Taln's dark eyes than by his madness.

And Amaram's knowledge of whatever Gavilar was up to + Taln should have been more than enough to secure him a hearing from Dalinar, despite everything. Which seemed to be his intention in our last glimpse of him in WoR. But in OB, it was as if he suddenly forgot all about his main trumps for gaining attention of the Kholin family. Heck, even if he did flip to Odium, he still should have used these assets!

IMHO, the main issue with Amaram's character was that he was never intended to be more than a catalyst for Kaladin and a source of intriguing hints of mysteries surrounding Gavilar and the SoH, rather than a rounded, consistent character. Having fulfilled his function, if he had died at the end of WoR as originally intended, he would have retained his illusion of depth. As is, with Sanderson not yet willing to dive into the secrets of the SoH and needing Sadeas' arc to be completed despite Torol's death, Amaram mutated into an awkward replacement-Sadeas, with barely anything of his original distinguishing traits remaining. And his duel with Kaladin was pure fan-service with the shades of a JRPG mini-boss fight.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Isilel

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, galendo said:

I'll give you that his public image wasn't real.  No question about that.  If he'd actually been the honorable man he pretended to be, he wouldn't have murdered the men who saved his life.  But...you say that his public image was blown to shreds after WoR, and that just didn't happen.  The only bad thing is that Dalinar asked him to resign his post as head Radiant, and chances are most Alethi thought it was a pretty silly position anyway.  There is no in-book evidence, that I'm aware of, to suggest that Amaram's public approval was in any way harmed by the events of WoR.  It certainly wasn't bad enough to prevent him being named Highprince Sadeas.

Amaram was accused of stealing armor and blade from a darkeyes that earned them. Further Amaram stood accused of stealing from a highprince (Dalinar's honorblade). Amaram had to sneak into Urithiru. It wasn't till Ialai backed him that he stepped back into the public light. 

But that's my point.  I totally understand why Odium wouldn't want Amaram to switch sides any earlier because of all those benefits you mention.  The part that isn't obvious to me is why Odium would want Amaram to switch sides even at the battle of Thaylen City.  If Amaram already belongs to Odium, why not give the Yelig-Nar stone to someone Odium could afford to lose rather than sacrifice his valuable and highly-placed mole?  Seems like pretty poor strategy to me.

Because at the time he thought he was going to have Dalinar. Amaram and the Sadeas soldiers all switched sides just before Odium offered Dalinar to be champion. Sadeas's forces switching sides was part of Odium's plan to take out Thaylenah. He told the fused that the parsh were to watch as the soldiers he prepared (sadeas's men) fought. This was meant to be a lesson to the parsh, and an easy victory. Then after Dalinar refused, Odium gave Amaram Yelig-nar. But by then Amaram had already red eyed led the troops against the humans. Kinda hard to put the genie back into the bottle at that point. Odium thought he won. Everything else was a formality. So why not throw his spy into the mix when he felt he didn't need him anymore?

As to Amaram being disappointed by Taln...I'm not saying it's not a kinda-sorta-plausible explanation, but it does seem something of a stretch.  And that's the reason why an Amaram viewpoint would have been so vital.  If we could've seen his disillusionment, then his treachery wouldn't have come completely out of left field.  Instead all we can do is string together tenuous chains of maybe.  Maybe Amaram became disillusioned with Taln.  Maybe Odium contacted him during the Everstorm.  Maybe Amaram fell prey to Odium's blandishments.  Maybe he was biding his time until the Thaylen City battle.  Maybe Odium had some reason to call him out.  Maybe, maybe, maybe.  It all hangs together like a tenuous spiderweb: possible, certainly, but seemingly ever more improbable.

So again, I stress I respect your opinion when I say this. You feel you need more for that to make sense. For myself, Amaram the honorable was a lie, so it is not a stretch for such a character to sell out. For myself, to seek this disillusionment is to try and bring a cause or excuse for his actions. For them to "make sense" for Amaram to have turned. For myself, the fact of the matter is Amaram is a horrible human being, that pretended to be something he was not, and when that truth was revealed even to himself and he could not hide from it, he ran to Odium. So for myself, there isn't disillusionment. There isn't agonizing over his faith. There isn't a tragic fall of a hero that gave in to evil. He was crem all along, just the general populace didn't see it. And based on Jasnah, Sadeas, Dalinar, Kaladin, etc that isn't a maybe to me. 

The cool thing is that both of these opinions can be correct.  I agree that Amaram was someone who wanted, for the most part, to do the right thing.  He may or may not have wanted to do the right thing for the right reasons (he's pretty selfish and wants other people to think well of him), but he did generally want to do the right thing.  In fact, I see a sort-of parallel between Amaram's betrayal of Kaladin's squad and Kaladin's betrayal of Elhokar.  Granted Amaram's actions are the worse of the two, but in both cases there's a sort of "for the greater good" argument that's tainted more than a little by personal motivations.

Yeah, I whole heartily disagree with this. Which is why I say I respect that in your opinion more PoVs would flesh out Amaram more while my own opinion feels it would not. 

Not to nitpick (okay, kind of to nitpick), but what do you think we could possibly learn about Amaram from one of Jasnah's flashbacks that would possibly have any bearing upon his present-day decisions?  I mean, even if we learn that he's a self-righteous prig who kicks his axehounds -- not improbable, and arguably somewhat likely, since we know that Jasnah dislikes him for some reason -- how does that possibly have any bearing on his current decisions?

No problem. We could learn a ton. Amaram claimed they were close when they were younger. We would then get to see a young Amaram. We would get to see if he truly started as a good person deep down as you claim. Jasnah commented on what kind of person he is, so she would be the first person to have a front row seat to his "changing". Her words say to me he was always like this, but her PoV would give you that opportunity for confirmation. If there was a falling out to result in her opinion of him, we would get to see it in her flashbacks. Basically we would get the progression you want via Jasnah. Personally I think what we will actually get is Jasnah at first meeting Amaram "the honorable" and then through her flashbacks see her revelation to how he truly is, and realizing the person he claimed he was, was all a lie. Either way, we would both get answers. 

Unless Jasnah's flashback sequence includes an OB-contemporaneous scene with her and Amaram, which now that I think about it might be kind of cool even if both unlikely and several books too late, I don't see how we're going to learn anything more about Amaram.  I mean, we'll probably learn that he's a delusional, misguided cremling...but it's not like we don't know that already.

Jasnah has already said he is a delusional misguided cremling. Given she is the one that knows him the most (by her and his own admittance), I would lean towards believing her personally. 

 

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@galendo

Amaram's public image after WOR is in tatters because Dalinar was going to put him on trial.  The war took precedence but Dalinar was not going to just forget about him. IMO, his shoddy reputation is exactly why he got the job as Sadeas Highprince.  Ialai knew that the appointment would stick in the craw of the man she felt was responsible for her husband's murder and had a fair chance of undermining his authority.  You cannot imagine Ialai actually giving Amaram any power outside of a martial context.  But even if his rep remained pristine after WOR he resented the fact that some people, powerful people, threw shade upon his actions.  Nobody recognized that although some of his actions were shady, he was working towards the greatest good in his opinion and that he should be praised for his dedication instead of ridiculed. Plus he was dumped on the word of a former bridgeman. What an insult.  Is Amaram petty enough to switch sides, to throw away everything he'd spent his life working towards over an insult like the one he endured? Judging from the fight with Kal at the end he is certainly that petty. Pettiness is the only thing that makes sense to me regarding Amaram considering how he had a golden opportunity to rehabilitate, restore at least some trust and cover himself in glory. 

As far as the Kaladin/Amaram parallel, the difference other than the severity of the betrayal is two-fold.  One, Amaram betrayed someone who had earned his trust, someone he owed his miserable life to. Helaran would have surely cut his butt in half were it not for a well placed knife by Stormblessed.  Meanwhile, the king was due protection through oath and position, but he never earned anything like Kaladin's loyalty.  The man would have had him killed were it not for Dalinar's intervention for pete's sake.  Obviously it would have been the wrong thing to do, but I don't know how much I could have really blamed Kal if he'd let Elkohar die.  But that brings me to two.  Amaram, lusting power, did the obviously wrong thing and felt guilty about it.  Kaladin, broken and thinking his power lost, was willing to die to fix his mistake, to do the right thing.  One does evil and makes excuses that show that he really was doing the right thing. The other puts his life on the line to address an issue he freely admits that he caused.  He not only takes responsibility for his screw up, he actively tries to fix it no matter what it would have cost him.

I agree that without that Amaram viewpoint we as readers are forced to guess at which point in the timeline that Amaram actually turned.  Brandon didn't leave many breadcrumbs hinting that he's switching teams but plenty about his questionable character.  But I think its a fair assessment that until the end of OB we didn't know Odium could turn anyone in the manner he turned Amaram and almost turned Dalinar.  I'm sure I didn't know that was in Odium's toolbox of skills.  Taravanginan had recruited himself.  I guess that since we got to witness Odium's sales pitch to Dalinar and Moash that it'd be only fair to get Amaram as well.  So was Amaram just a wasted character, someone full of potential who was snuffed out before he could make a truly momentus impact on the villian side?  Or is the fandom putting too much emphasis on a guy who wasn't important enough to get so much as an interlude chapter, who could have never been radiant and had proven time and time again that he didn't have the will to resist being gobbled up by Yelig-Nar? Maybe the two statements are not mutually exclusive.  For my two cents I think he was a perfect mid-tier antagonist, a good mini-boss for the middle book of a five book arc.  Brandon is just so good that he wrote Amaram in such a way as to have him stretch the role he placed him in.  It's the Adolin Principle. 

I agree with everything except needing more viewpoints from Amaram. But I elaborated on that above, so no need to repeat

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

I am among those who were greatly perplexed and disappointed by Amaram's role in OB. Yes, Sanderson tried to make it kinda sorta maybe plausible, but there are still many incongrous elements, some of them even introduced or reinforced in OB, oddly enough. Basically, it is only after I have read the author's comments on writing on his homepage where he revealed that Amaram was supposed to die in WoR to Iyatil, while Sadeas was supposed to survive until very late into the writing process of that book, that Amaram's arc in OB started to make sense to me. He was just forced into the Torol-shaped hole there and did stuff that was meant for Torol. This perfectly explains all the contradictions and ommissions that made his plot look so contrived to me.

One of which was the complete absence of any evidence of past great friendship between Amaram and Dalinar, so touted in WoR. In fact, in the current timeline there is no room for any such relationship to have ever evolved. OTOH, we got plenty of Dalinar - Torol friendship scenes, which retroactively illuminated their interactions in WoK and WoR in the new and interesting ways.

Amaram was shown to be with them at the Rift. It was shown due to his title he was frequently apart of the inner counsil. There were plenty of generals that were close and respect Dalinar, but we do not get extended friendship scenes with them. So myself I do not need to see them to believe so with Amaram

Also, all the intriguing hints at Amaram's hidden depths, like his secret scholarship, his flute collection, his cordial relationship with his household etc. were comprehensively ignored. As well as the elephant in the room - his relationship with Gavilar and how he knew about the basics of Dalinar's revelations for years prior to their release to the public - possibly for as many as a decade, even, and how it informed his actions.

As I mentioned before, the "honorable high lord", was a lie. His relationship with the household to me was intentional. Just like how when Amaram brought Kaladin and Tien into the military due to Roshone, Amaram said how he would keep Tien from the front lines. "Honorable high lord" didn't do very much to keep that promise did he? We have confirmation from Brandon that Gavilar and Dalinar saw the same visions, but Gavilar interpreted them differently. It is like the game of telephone. Gavilar is going to retell the visions in the order that he deems important. He is going to focus on the portions he deems important, and he is going to fail to mention the portions he deems unimportant.

Except that Amaram knew about the visions for at least 6 years - from Gavilar. Just as as Taravangian did. Oddly enough, OB only confirmed this point by showing the 3 men together on the night of the assassination - and we had been already informed that that's when Gavilar confided in Taravangian. Now, Gavilar may not have related his visions in as much detail as Dalinar, nor prioritized the same things as his brother. However, Mr T. certainly got the just of it.

I cannot be the only who expected the protagonists conflict with Amaram to be rooted in the comparison and clash of Gavilar's version and interpretation of the visions with Dalinar's, rather than just in personal animosities.

Amaram heard Dalinar's interpretation and felt Dalinar interpreted it incorrectly. Amaram took what information validated his world view, and disregarded what didn't. Its cognitive dissonance. 

Yes, the Amaram of WoK and WoR was very much in the same boat as Taravangian, working from the same information in Gavilar's visions but with the Vorinism-focussed approach. OB Amaram is very much Sadeas-redux - possibly because Sanderson decided that there _was_ too much similarity between Gavilar's 2 confidants and that it would be repetitive. However, I feel that the religious strife angle between religious Vorins and Dalinar's factions despite both also being against Odium  would have made it fresh enough.

I have recently read a historical novel about the start of Dutch struggle for independence against Spain and how despite calvinists, lutherans and moderate catholics all being opposed to the Inquisition, their mutual distrust and disagreements constantly prevented the formation of a common front and made Spanish Netherlands, as they were then, an easy prey for the Duke of Alba. I now realise that I have been expecting something like that from OB, with Dalinar in the role of William the Silent, trying to forge all those disparate elements into an alliance.

I respect that you wanted to see a certain narrative play out and are discontent with the narrative as it did play out. 

Nope. The whole story of Tanalaan Jr. and his later claims that Dalinar "stole" Oathbringer from him demonstrates why Amaram didn't ask Kaladin for the shards, after Kal made it clear that he wasn't going to take them himself. And I very much doubt that he would have done anything except recruiting Kaladin into the Sons of Honor, or trying to, if the latter claimed the shards for himself. Kaladin, after all, proved himself worthy in the proper Vorin way and had quite a reputation besides. But letting the shards go to some dark-eyed random soldier was too much for Amaram - and even then he had to be persuaded by others. Which already puts him ahead of many nobles in the books conscience-wise.

Dalinar killed Tanalan Sr. Tanalan Jr couldn't even pick up the blade. Dalinar won the blade fair and square. Tanalan Jr was using the claim to justify his rebellion. Kaladin clearly won the blade and plate. Amaram was wounded and unable to fight. Amaram couldn't put forward his own claim and fight Kaladin for it because he would have lost. So instead his ambushed Kaladin and co, and killed them, pretending Kaladin never won them. Quite a bit different. 

Not to mention that Amaram at that time was in a very similar situation to Jasnah in WoK and early WoR - he knew that the Final Desolation was coming and that they needed to prepare, but also that nobody would listen to the few SoH who were in the picture after Gavilar's death. That was likely the light in which the theft of the shards was presented to him by Restares. For the greater good, etc.

Amaram and the Sons of Honor were actively trying to bring the parshendi gods back. They were trying to start the desolation so the heralds would return. Jasnah was trying to stop a coming desolation. I see no similarity there. 

I find the claims that Jasnah would have been among those who knew Amaram best to be ironic, BTW, because there was so much that she didn't know about him. Like his hidden scholarship, which Shallan found to be pretty impressive, heh.

When was it shown Jasnah didn't know? I do not recall it being revealed to her and her being surprised. Could you provide a reference? 

Except that OB, oddly enough, undermined this notion by revealing that Tien's death was the result of an actual Skybreaker conspiracy, rather than just the negligence on Amaram's part, as it seemed previously.

I do not recall Tien's death being a skybreaker conspiracy. Only that the skybreakers did not know about Kaladin because the only one they could have looked into already died, which was reference to Tien. I do not recall it said anywhere that the skybreakers made it happen. Could you provide a reference?

I have wondered whether Sadeas got wind of Amaram's theft of shards and was referring to it. Or something else that had to do with SoH. We'll never know, I guess.

Sadeas said he knows what Amaram is really like. Sadeas thought nothing of dark eyes and throwing slaves into the grinder to die with bridges so his important troops would be safe. One instance (albeit a bad one), would not to me result in such a response. That is something cultivated over time. 

Sure, OB tries to present it that way, but it is oddly jarring when one remembers that he wasn't particularly discouraged by either issue in his PoV in WoR and was actually rather optimistic and upbeat  heading out to Urithiru. Certainly, he was more disconcerted by Taln's dark eyes than by his madness.

And Amaram's knowledge of whatever Gavilar was up to + Taln should have been more than enough to secure him a hearing with Dalinar, despite everything. Which seemed to be his intention in our last glimpse of him in WoR. But in OB, it was as if he suddenly forgot all about his main trumps for gaining attention of the Kholin family. Heck, even if he did flip to Odium, he still should have used these assets!

Why would he need those trumps if Odium offers him a way out?

IMHO, the main issue with Amaram's character was that he was never intended to be more than a catalyst for Kaladin and a source of intriguing hints of mysteries surrounding Gavilar and the SoH, rather than a rounded character. Having fulfilled his function, if he had died at the end of WoR as originally intended, he would have retained his illusion of depth. As is, with Sanderson not yet willing to dive into the secrets of the SoH and needing Sadeas' arc to be completed despite Torol's death, Amaram mutated into an awkward replacement-Sadeas, with barely anything of his original distinguishing traits remaining. And his duel with Kaladin was pure fan-service with the shades of a JRPG mini-boss fight.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. 

 

Ok I think I responded to everyone. 

[Calderis he/him]

@Isilel that assumes that Amaram knew all of the visions, and that Gavilar was perfectly open and honest.

Considering the things he says, I don't believe that's the case. 

[Isilel]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

that assumes that Amaram knew all of the visions, and that Gavilar was perfectly open and honest.

Considering the things he says, I don't believe that's the case. 

Gavilar was open and honest enough to Taravangian for him to understand what was coming:

WoR, I-14, Taravangian:

Quote

He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive.

That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death. Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm.

Unite them.

 

 

 

And OB, of course, put  Amaram in the same room where this explanation was presumably happening.

[Calderis he/him]

@Isilel there's no mention of the Heralds in that explanation. And I very much doubt that the words Taravangian speaks in that are precisely what Gavilar said, because he says the Almighty is dead and we know exactly the way that Amaram justified that.

You can't have it both ways. He either understood the visions perfectly, in which case he's not just a narcissist, but a pathological liar whose actions make absolutely no sense. Or he didn't know things perfectly, and he actually believed in Vorinism and the Heralds. 

Which again, his rant at the end... 

Quote

“Everything I do is for honor.” Amaram swept with a single Blade, making Kaladin dodge. “It was honor that drove me to seek the return of the Heralds, of powers, and of our god.”
“So you could join the other side?”
Lightning flashed behind Amaram, casting red light and long shadows as he resummoned his second Blade. “Odium showed me what the Heralds have become. We spent years trying to get them to return. But they were here all along. They abandoned us, spearman.”

Says he clearly did. 

His knowledge of the visions was limited to what Gavilar told him, and the context in which it was presented. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

So I have begun working on my next thread which will focus on all the quotes associated with Amaram to get a clearer picture of the character. At the moment I was perusing some of them, when I came across one that I feel is pertinent to the discussion here so I thought I would share it prior to really digging into the work on my thread. 

Amaram was not ok with Taln as "insane". He sent the message to Restares first, then thought to himself how important it was to bring the Church back into power, because sure the Heralds must return with their dire straits (so he wasn't even sure starting the Desolation would accomplish their goal), and then he went to speak with Taln. He expresses regret for have not killed Kaladin when he had the chance. Taln then defends Amaram from the darts. After Taln goes back to his insane mode, Amaram feels a chill. That says to me right then Amaram began to realize not everything was "right". The great Herald they did so much to bring back, wasn't responding nor acting the way he should. Amaram even convinces himself the darkeyes must "be a disguise". The pertinent portions are quoted below. 

 

Words of Radiance page 1059

"I do not exult in this success, he wrote. Lives will be lost. it has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis. That crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss."

 

Words of Radiance page 1061

"Would that mercy had not stayed his hand, all those months ago, when he could have executed that spearman."

"The Herald's dark eyes were, of course, some kind of disguise"

 

Words of Radiance page 1061

"The he dropped both darts and sat back down on his bed. His strange, unchanging mantra started over again, muttered. Amaram felt a chill run down his spine, but when he returned to the Herald, he could not get the man to respond. With effort, he made the Herald rise again and ushered him to the coach. 

[DisCorD.]

On 4/16/2019 at 4:42 PM, Subvisual Haze said:

In the past Amaram was at least trying to do "the right thing", following his King's lead to resurrect their lost holy leaders.  This is ethical from a consequentialist perspective (bringing back holy figures), he's essentially a dumber Taravangian in that regard.   Dalinar spent a good portion of his life murdering people because he enjoyed it.  What if they both died shortly after the Rift, how would we judge them then?  Dalinar lived long enough and had circumstances conspire to give the opportunity for him to turn it all around.  If he had died shortly after the Battle of the Rift humanity would have rightly regarded him as a monster.

I am new to Stormlight and very late to this discussion, but when you talk about Dalinar enjoying all the murdering, isn't Odium's and the unmade's influence (the thrill) atleast partly responsible for this behavior? Not just in Dalinar, so many others as well. An inherently narcissistic nature and an addiction to an outside malicious influence should probably be treated differently, right?

Edited September 1, 2020 by DisCorD.

[Hoidolasium he/him]

On 9/1/2020 at 5:07 PM, DisCorD. said:

Dalinar spent a good portion of his life murdering people because he enjoyed it.

If I remember correctly, it was more about the contest of battle and the power he felt. He wasn't the one who did subtle murders because he felt no joy in those.