The King of Alethkar is a puppet position

[Gray to he/him]

I've been thinking about this for a while. In ancient times, each highprince had a specialization and authority over a certain field. This was to make sure they work together. We know 4 of those fields (Information, Commerce, War, and Works), but each one has a surprisingly large amount of power. Information has control of the justice system and investigations, Commerce has control all merchants and trade routes, War has complete military authority, and Works has control of infrastructure, civil services, and potentially stormlight management. 

With all this power given to just 4 highprinces, and with 6 more we don't even know about, it got me thinking: what is there left for the king? We know Gavilar was a powerful king, but that's probably because he didn't give specializations to any of the highprinces. The only authorities I could think of for the knight would be assigning these specializations and declaring war on nation and then handing military power to the Highprince of War. 

So maybe the position of King is simply a puppet position used to give the people a symbol of unity while the highprinces continue to be kings of their own princedoms without anyone above them.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I'm not so sure about the puppetry in Alethi kingship. I mean the King still has to appoint that price to the position and can fire them at anytime for any or no reason. And the check is there so that if any one prince tries to buck authority they face reprisals from the other 9. I look at it like cabinet appointments from the president.

[Calderis he/him]

When these roles inevitably bicker and fight over who gets to decide on what in cases of overlap, the authority would go to the king. 

The. King would have to act as both mediator between the princedoms and ultimate end authority. 

It doesn't sound like a puppet position to me at all. It sounds like a perpetual headache. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I don't think you could use the events in way The Way of Kings as a good example of the system, Sadeas was a would-be usurper and Dalinar was an actual usurper. Elokhar was a very weak king. If he had been able to be more authoritative the high princes would have seemed more like secretarial positions that they do in the book.

[Pathfinder]

I theorize that the "highprince of...." was meant to emulate the heralds/radiants. Highprince of Information would be Nale/Skybreakers. Highprince of War would be Taln/Stonewards, and so on. So I think we could try and guess what the other highprince titles would be based on that. 

[Winds Alight she/her]

Was there actually a king before Gavilar? I though there was none before the Kholin brothers went off to (forcefully) unite Alethkar?

Anyway, even if Elhokar's success as a king is ... questionable, I believe Jasnah won't have any of this "puppet" thing.

[+Child of Hodor]

The throne is as strong or weak as the monarch that sits on it. It wasn't a token position when Gavilar was king, it kind of was when Elhokar was propped up by Dalinar and Sadeas. I suppose we could say the power structure was more of an informal triumvirate with the Monarch as nominal ruler, but Gavilar was still one of the three and the most important of the three.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumvirate

The highprinces seem like governors or lords who swear fealty to the monarch. This fealty matters as long as it is enforced, if one highprince steps out of line the others turn on them. If 9 revolt against the monarch then they have a real problem, but that's the same in any government. The ruler is in charge as long as other powerful people don't turn on them in force. 

5 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Was there actually a king before Gavilar? I though there was none before the Kholin brothers went off to (forcefully) unite Alethkar?

Anyway, even if Elhokar's success as a king is ... questionable, I believe Jasnah won't have any of this "puppet" thing.

That's right, there wasn't for hundreds of years, since the time of the Sunmaker who wielded Oathbringer. Then the Sunmaker died and his 10 children tore the kingdom apart. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Sadees

Edited April 4, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[king of nowhere]

as others have said, the king has his share of power, his actual power depends a lot on the king and the highprinces and their specific skill, ambition and interactions.

I'm sure jasnah will not be a puppet. Her opponents may become ones, but only if she soulcasts them into something soft enough to bend at the joints.

[Karger he/him]

 

3 hours ago, Gray to said:

With all this power given to just 4 highprinces, and with 6 more we don't even know about, it got me thinking: what is there left for the king? We know Gavilar was a powerful king, but that's probably because he didn't give specializations to any of the highprinces. The only authorities I could think of for the knight would be assigning these specializations and declaring war on nation and then handing military power to the Highprince of War. 

It would be equally correct to say that the US presidency is a puppet position because he appoints cabinet secretaries.   A head of state can be week or a puppet figure but he does not become one because he has people do part of the job for him.  Delegation is part of a good leader.

[Gray to he/him]

13 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'm not so sure about the puppetry in Alethi kingship. I mean the King still has to appoint that price to the position and can fire them at anytime for any or no reason. And the check is there so that if any one prince tries to buck authority they face reprisals from the other 9. I look at it like cabinet appointments from the president.

That's true. I guess I didnt consider enough about how much power there is in choosing which highprince gets which position. You could grant power to the ones most loyal to you to pin down the those who arent as loyal. 

13 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I theorize that the "highprince of...." was meant to emulate the heralds/radiants. Highprince of Information would be Nale/Skybreakers. Highprince of War would be Taln/Stonewards, and so on. So I think we could try and guess what the other highprince titles would be based on that. 

That's a good observation. Ishar is known as the Herald of Luck. I wonder what that correlates to in government?

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Gray to said:

That's true. I guess I didnt consider enough about how much power there is in choosing which highprince gets which position. You could grant power to the ones most loyal to you to pin down the those who arent as loyal. 

That's a good observation. Ishar is known as the Herald of Luck. I wonder what that correlates to in government?

Thanks. Here are just some ideas off the top of my head. Totally open to other thoughts:

Jezerien - Herald of Kings - Highprince of ? (honestly this one is giving me trouble considering the idea is for a King to rule over the other 10 highprinces. Any ideas?)

Nale - Herald of Justice - Highprince of Information (judges and cops)

Chana - Herald of (doesn't say on coppermind) - Highprince of Security/Defense? (since her order has the ideals of brave and obedient, and for some reason I feel like it was mentioned she was a guard in life, perhaps highprince of security regarding guards, and patroling forces. Keeping the peace in the outlying areas from bandits. )

Vedel - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but she is mentioned with surgeons) - Highprince of Health? (runs hospitals, medical research, and etc)

Pailiah - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but considering she focuses on growth) - Highprince of Agriculture?

Shalash - Herald of Beauty - Highprince of the Arts? Considering it doesn't coincide with the Alethi warlike nature, I could see why this would be less appealing to most. This and the highprinces of health, and agriculture lol. 

Battar - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but considering what she is associated with and her radiant order I think we can guess) - Highprince of Science?

Kalak - Herald of (doesnt say on the coppermind, but I believe he is referred to as the builder so) - Highprince of Infrastructure?

Talenel - Herald of War - Highprince of War (this we already know what it does)

Ishar - Herald of Luck - Highprince of Faith (I feel this is because of what we potentially know of the herald himself, and his abilities as well as the bondsmiths associated)

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+robardin he/him]

20 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I'm sure jasnah will not be a puppet. Her opponents may become ones, but only if she soulcasts them into something soft enough to bend at the joints.

Niiiiice.

There's a more intersting angle to having Jasnah be the Queen of Alethkar, though, than her being a woman. It's that she's a Knight Radiant, and openly so after the battle of Thaylen Fields. What is that going to be like for the Vorin Church, and what would its disapproval imply for the sitting Monarch, if anything?

(Setting aside the fact that much of Alethkar, including its capital at Kholinar, is under Odium's control...)

[Pathfinder]

16 minutes ago, robardin said:

Niiiiice.

There's a more intersting angle to having Jasnah be the Queen of Alethkar, though, than her being a woman. It's that she's a Knight Radiant, and openly so after the battle of Thaylen Fields. What is that going to be like for the Vorin Church, and what would its disapproval imply for the sitting Monarch, if anything?

(Setting aside the fact that much of Alethkar, including its capital at Kholinar, is under Odium's control...)

I think the Vorin church has far more to worry about in keeping followers than the Monarch worrying about keeping the Vorin church happy. The desolation is basically proof positive that the Vorin church is wrong. You have people by the score trying to "sign up" to become a radiant. A group up until that point seen as "evil" by the Vorin church. Now they are being seen as saviors by the people. The Vorin church is going to have to do a whole lot of back peddaling to keep up with the changing times to stay relevant. Now after saying all that, Jasnah has said on multiple occasions across all the books that she has no issue with people worshiping as they wish, so long as she can belief as she wishes and others are not prevented from believing as they wish. So the Vorin church would do well to be on her good side because she would be the main means for them to remain in existence. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the Vorin church has far more to worry about in keeping followers than the Monarch worrying about keeping the Vorin church happy. The desolation is basically proof positive that the Vorin church is wrong. You have people by the score trying to "sign up" to become a radiant. A group up until that point seen as "evil" by the Vorin church. Now they are being seen as saviors by the people. The Vorin church is going to have to do a whole lot of back peddaling to keep up with the changing times to stay relevant. Now after saying all that, Jasnah has said on multiple occasions across all the books that she has no issue with people worshiping as they wish, so long as she can belief as she wishes and others are not prevented from believing as they wish. So the Vorin church would do well to be on her good side because she would be the main means for them to remain in existence. 

Generally I would agree, but there's also the fact that Jasnah was already a "reviled heretic" in their view, and they'd just excommicated Dalinar the Bondsmith... AFTER he declared himself a Bondsmith at the head of the refounded Knights Radiant, AFTER the Everstorm and Return of the Voidbringers, and AFTER the Assassin in White was proved to have been carrying Jezerien's Honorblade, which Dalinar had in his possession.

So I don't think the Vorin Church is just going to fall into line here, just because two of the Heralds are now with Dalinar. After all, how could Talenelat be a darkeyes?

What influence they continue to have on Alethkar's society remains to be seen, but they are quite intertwined with a lot of the social fabric. If they wanted to make trouble with the people, riling them up to reject these "new Radiants" as dangerous heretics who probably created these pseudo-Voidbringers themselves or something, they'd have a lot of support, especially away from the center of things Radiant. Don't underestimate how much people cling to long-held beliefs in the face of physical and logical evidence to the contrary... We see that all the time in real life.

Also curious was Dalinar's noting the ornate gear the curates wore who came to excommunicate him. From who he fled by Oathgate. My suspicion is that at least one Herald is behind the Vorin Church's dogma.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Generally I would agree, but there's also the fact that Jasnah was already a "reviled heretic" in their view, and they'd just excommicated Dalinar the Bondsmith... AFTER he declared himself a Bondsmith at the head of the refounded Knights Radiant, AFTER the Everstorm and Return of the Voidbringers, and AFTER the Assassin in White was proved to have been carrying Jezerien's Honorblade, which Dalinar had in his possession.

So I don't think the Vorin Church is just going to fall into line here, just because two of the Heralds are now with Dalinar. After all, how could Talenelat be a darkeyes?

What influence they continue to have on Alethkar's society remains to be seen, but they are quite intertwined with a lot of the social fabric. If they wanted to make trouble with the people, riling them up to reject these "new Radiants" as dangerous heretics who probably created these pseudo-Voidbringers themselves or something, they'd have a lot of support, especially away from the center of things Radiant. Don't underestimate how much people cling to long-held beliefs in the face of physical and logical evidence to the contrary... We see that all the time in real life.

Also curious was Dalinar's noting the ornate gear the curates wore who came to excommunicate him. From who he fled by Oathgate. My suspicion is that at least one Herald is behind the Vorin Church's dogma.

And the ardents already worked with the "reviled heretic" in researching the gemstone archive. They, as well as stormwardens, and scholars all worked under Jasnah. Navani marveled at how effective Jasnah was at getting three disparate groups to work together so well. 

Yep, they excommunicated Dalinar, and it didn't change anything in the function of the alliance, nor change his rule of the Alethi. Kadash wanted Dalinar to allow the people who were uncertain to continue to worship as they wish. Which Jasnah has gone on record numerous times throughout the books as having no problem with. 

People were lining up just for a chance to try and become a radiant. The individuals that the Vorin church said were "traitors". When Kaladin went from village to village in Alethkar, the people greeted him as "lord radiant" and were falling over themselves to welcome him. 

Also keep in mind the Vorin church functioned as the ardents carrying out the worship for them. Their only hands on version of worship was "doing their job" because it would bring them closer to the Almighty. I could see there being a greater fracture in Jah Keved or Iri because the people are much more "involved" in their religion, but not in Alethkar. 

You are perfectly entitled to think it is going to be a large issue. Personally from what I have seen, I do not. I think Vorinism has to change to survive the end times. The heads are already panicking. Dalinar's excommunication I feel was more a last ditch act hoping to make a stand rather than something of actual consequence. 

[Karger he/him]

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are perfectly entitled to think it is going to be a large issue. Personally from what I have seen, I do not. I think Vorinism has to change to survive the end times. The heads are already panicking. Dalinar's excommunication I feel was more a last ditch act hoping to make a stand rather than something of actual consequence. 

We also know very little about the Vorin church's internal politics so it may be that a more radical conservative groups was behind Dalinar's excommunication(potentially members of the sons of honor?).

[Pathfinder]

38 minutes ago, Karger said:

We also know very little about the Vorin church's internal politics so it may be that a more radical conservative groups was behind Dalinar's excommunication(potentially members of the sons of honor?).

True. The church could potentially fragment further into different sects as result. 

[+robardin he/him]

Oh, I don't doubt that Dalinar's "Team Radiants" will ultimately prevail. I'm just saying that Vorinism has been seen to be profoundly embedded and influential. Many or most of the world's most prominent scholars are Vorin ardents, all the male scholars for sure, and many of the female ones too (as seen with the ardents who had the breakthrough in figuring out the Eila Stele). And the entire caste system, distinction of masculine/feminine arts, and the safehand thing, are predicated on Vorin teachings.

For sure, the basis for Vorinism as they knew it is going to be largely overturned. That doesn't mean the framework will go down easily. There is a lot invested in that framework, and it's not like they have a ready made alternative to it other than chaos.

There could be pushback even from darkeyes on the lower rungs of the social ladder. Imagine you're someone who just spent a ton of money on buying up a rank of nahn, you'd be pretty put out if suddenly nahn and eye color didn't matter at all any more, and oh, you don't get your money back.

I don't expect (and certainly don't want) Brandon's focus to be on this sort of thing, otherwise the Stormlight Archives could spiral like the Star Wars prequels into a mire of socio-poltiical developments. But something should happen with the leaders of the Vorin church in the next book or two, even if it's showing some kind of total collapse and how Alethi society attempts to deal with it.

One neat solution would be like with Mistborn, between Eras 1 and 2. Just put the whole transition as happening in the story gap between SA5 and SA6 and skip on the details, just like what happens to evolve the obligator/priest based worship of The Lord Ruler into Sliverism doesn't need a lot of fleshing out except "and that's what happened to that particular belief system".

[Merlin]

In WoK, it is a puppet position, but it wasn't always one. The last Alethi king was the Sunmaker, and it seems like he ruled with a Shardplate fist (eh, eh?).Since the Kholin brothers recently restarted the tradition of kingship in Alethkar, there isn't much of a tradition for how the position works. Perhaps they all remembered the old traditions, but tried to bend and interpret them in ways they weren't supposed to be, making the king"s position a lot more puppet-like than usual.

[Pathfinder]

On 4/5/2019 at 3:51 PM, robardin said:

Oh, I don't doubt that Dalinar's "Team Radiants" will ultimately prevail. I'm just saying that Vorinism has been seen to be profoundly embedded and influential. Many or most of the world's most prominent scholars are Vorin ardents, all the male scholars for sure, and many of the female ones too (as seen with the ardents who had the breakthrough in figuring out the Eila Stele). And the entire caste system, distinction of masculine/feminine arts, and the safehand thing, are predicated on Vorin teachings.

For sure, the basis for Vorinism as they knew it is going to be largely overturned. That doesn't mean the framework will go down easily. There is a lot invested in that framework, and it's not like they have a ready made alternative to it other than chaos.

There could be pushback even from darkeyes on the lower rungs of the social ladder. Imagine you're someone who just spent a ton of money on buying up a rank of nahn, you'd be pretty put out if suddenly nahn and eye color didn't matter at all any more, and oh, you don't get your money back.

I don't expect (and certainly don't want) Brandon's focus to be on this sort of thing, otherwise the Stormlight Archives could spiral like the Star Wars prequels into a mire of socio-poltiical developments. But something should happen with the leaders of the Vorin church in the next book or two, even if it's showing some kind of total collapse and how Alethi society attempts to deal with it.

One neat solution would be like with Mistborn, between Eras 1 and 2. Just put the whole transition as happening in the story gap between SA5 and SA6 and skip on the details, just like what happens to evolve the obligator/priest based worship of The Lord Ruler into Sliverism doesn't need a lot of fleshing out except "and that's what happened to that particular belief system".

To clarify on "go down". I do not think Vorinism will cease to exist. I think it will need to change some of its tenets and change with the times. I think their best bet in accomplishing that is to try and make an ally in Jasnah instead of an enemy. For me if the Vorin church was antagonistic towards Jasnah and her rulership, it would cause them far more problems and erode their power base further then it has already been eroded. 

Regarding pushback from darkeyes. I believe it would be the reverse. The darkeyes would push back against the Vorin religion. They were told all this time they could only rise so far. Now if they bond a spren they have equal standing with light eyes, or even above them. Sounds to me it would benefit the darkeyes more to back the radiants that can give them advancement than the vorin church that holds them back. 

[+robardin he/him]

In Oathbringer, Kaladin himself notes that there isn't time in this crisis to overturn the social structure, as he reluctantly instructs and entrusts the well-being of Hearthstone to Roshone (and Laral, who speaks up for the citylord). And yet, with numerous darkeyes or former slaves becoming Radiant or Surgebinding squires (Teft, Lopen, numerous bridge squads, Vathah and perhaps Gaz to follow), not to mention female Radiants, society is certain to get far more fluid and meritocratic.

Still, at least for the foreseeable immediate future of the Vorin states, it's likely that a "special case" darkeyes (who can draw Stormlight) will essentially get "promoted" to lighteyes status (they immediately start addressing Kaladin as "Brightlord" after he summons a Sylblade as his eyes bled to blue), but the run of the mill 6th or 7th nahn farmhand is pretty much gonna stay that way.

That's what I meant by there being "pushback" for a wholesale upending of the system, even from some darkeyes. Nobody would likely dispute it if someone like Gaz, a despised and pardoned deserter of the sixth nahn, if he became a Radiant(!) or just a Surgebinding squire to Shallan, should get some kind of special consideration (exactly what, would remain to be worked out). That doesn't mean people of nahn 1-5, much less lighteyes of any dahn, would suddenly regard all 6th nahn folk in general in a significantly better light.

We've seen that "Citizens" of the first or second nahn even have a special respectful term of address for them, and probably enjoy being the top of the darkeyes heap. Similarly, the large body of low dahn workaday lighteyes enjoy "at least" feeling superior in certain social contexts (if not economic) to successful Citizens. They will be heavily invested in maintaining some of the structure that has kept them on some kind of top.

We've already seen Dalinar and Kaladin thinking to themselves along these lines, but I really don't want this to become a major element in SA 4-5. I'm hoping (expecting) Brandon to do most of the societal seismic shifts off-screen in the generational gap between SA5 and SA6.

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

In Oathbringer, Kaladin himself notes that there isn't time in this crisis to overturn the social structure, as he reluctantly instructs and entrusts the well-being of Hearthstone to Roshone (and Laral, who speaks up for the citylord). And yet, with numerous darkeyes or former slaves becoming Radiant or Surgebinding squires (Teft, Lopen, numerous bridge squads, Vathah and perhaps Gaz to follow), not to mention female Radiants, society is certain to get far more fluid and meritocratic.

Still, at least for the foreseeable immediate future of the Vorin states, it's likely that a "special case" darkeyes (who can draw Stormlight) will essentially get "promoted" to lighteyes status (they immediately start addressing Kaladin as "Brightlord" after he summons a Sylblade as his eyes bled to blue), but the run of the mill 6th or 7th nahn farmhand is pretty much gonna stay that way.

That's what I meant by there being "pushback" for a wholesale upending of the system, even from some darkeyes. Nobody would likely dispute it if someone like Gaz, a despised and pardoned deserter of the sixth nahn, if he became a Radiant(!) or just a Surgebinding squire to Shallan, should get some kind of special consideration (exactly what, would remain to be worked out). That doesn't mean people of nahn 1-5, much less lighteyes of any dahn, would suddenly regard all 6th nahn folk in general in a significantly better light.

We've seen that "Citizens" of the first or second nahn even have a special respectful term of address for them, and probably enjoy being the top of the darkeyes heap. Similarly, the large body of low dahn workaday lighteyes enjoy "at least" feeling superior in certain social contexts (if not economic) to successful Citizens. They will be heavily invested in maintaining some of the structure that has kept them on some kind of top.

We've already seen Dalinar and Kaladin thinking to themselves along these lines, but I really don't want this to become a major element in SA 4-5. I'm hoping (expecting) Brandon to do most of the societal seismic shifts off-screen in the generational gap between SA5 and SA6.

The darkeyed children, and adults too in Kaladin's home of hearthstone would speak of legends of winning a shardblade and becoming a light eyes. Now imagine those people finding out if you follow a radiant around, and act like them, you have a chance to become a radiant light eyes too. Now of course we know there is a lot more to it than that, but they wouldn't. That is why there were countless people staring at infused gemstones, trying to inhale stormlight. Some even swallowed them. Now insert ardent saying to get back to work. Says you are a darkeyes. Your lot in life is to work the land. That is how you worship the great Almighty to fight the voidbringers in the afterlife and reclaim the tranquiline halls. Well darkeyes reply, now wait a minute. The voidbringers are here and now. From what I have heard the Almighty is dead. Scrapping and bowing didn't change that. But those radiants there? That can fly, or heal, or change things with a way of their hands? They are actually doing something. Ardent replies, but the radiants betrayed mankind! It is only through our faith in the almighty that we can..... We can what? How about you go suck some crem. I am going to look real intent like at this gemstone and get me one of those fancy spren. Then I will be able to produce a whole field of food here and now. Not in your after life. Now. I will be able to take care of my family and keep them safe. Can you promise me that? No? Then good bye. 

[+robardin he/him]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The darkeyed children, and adults too in Kaladin's home of hearthstone would speak of legends of winning a shardblade and becoming a light eyes. Now imagine those people finding out if you follow a radiant around, and act like them, you have a chance to become a radiant light eyes too. Now of course we know there is a lot more to it than that, but they wouldn't. That is why there were countless people staring at infused gemstones, trying to inhale stormlight. Some even swallowed them. Now insert ardent saying to get back to work. Says you are a darkeyes. Your lot in life is to work the land. That is how you worship the great Almighty to fight the voidbringers in the afterlife and reclaim the tranquiline halls. Well darkeyes reply, now wait a minute. The voidbringers are here and now. From what I have heard the Almighty is dead. Scrapping and bowing didn't change that. But those radiants there? That can fly, or heal, or change things with a way of their hands? They are actually doing something. Ardent replies, but the radiants betrayed mankind! It is only through our faith in the almighty that we can..... We can what? How about you go suck some crem. I am going to look real intent like at this gemstone and get me one of those fancy spren. Then I will be able to produce a whole field of food here and now. Not in your after life. Now. I will be able to take care of my family and keep them safe. Can you promise me that? No? Then good bye. 

LOL, I love how you just switched to the first person in the middle of this. That "suck some crem" really came from the gemheart, didn't it!

The fact remains, though, that very few people of any eye color are likely to become Radiant, or even squires, relative to the population as a whole, even if a lot of people are going around trying to force the issue. And more are more people will probably try as well.

But what happens to the "washout" would-be Radiant or Radiant squires? Let's say there's an allowance for Disgruntled Farmer to do Kaladin's four-week Windrunner Tryout Camp, and they don't advance. Not too many of the other orders have explicit trials (the Skybreakers appear to do, but they're actually fighting FOR the Voidbringers right now), so now what? You need to eat, your family needs to eat, and all you know how to do is to till the land.

Edited April 8, 2019 by robardin

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

LOL, I love how you just switched to the first person in the middle of this. That "suck some crem" really came from the gemheart, didn't it!

The fact remains, though, that very few people of any eye color are likely to become Radiant, or even squires, relative to the population as a whole, even if a lot of people are going around trying to force the issue. And more are more people will probably try as well.

But what happens to the "washout" would-be Radiant or Radiant squires? Let's say there's an allowance for Disgruntled Farmer to do Kaladin's four-week Windrunner Tryout Camp, and they don't advance. Not too many of the other orders have explicit trials (the Skybreakers appear to do, but they're actually fighting FOR the Voidbringers right now), so now what? You need to eat, your family needs to eat, and all you know how to do is to till the land.

(just in case, to be clear I was not speaking to you. I wrote "the darkeyes reply" so the intention would be the darkeyes is now speaking. so hope you do not take it as me telling you to suck some crem lol)

Well we have confirmation from WoB that you could remain a squire all your life. Becoming a squire doesn't guarantee you will become a radiant, but it also doesn't mean the squiredom will just end. Of course there will be people bitter that they were unable to become a radiant. Then they will deal with it as they decide to deal with it. One of the farming kids said that according to his father, someone stole the shardblade from him. Otherwise he would have been a lighteyes. So some may say there aren't enough spren to go around. Or they may be resentful to the radiants. Or they may try even harder. If you had a child almost at death's door, and an ardent told you it is the almighty's way, while renarin walks up, waves his hand, and your boy is healthy and happy, public perception is going to change. If a friend of yours is now a radiant light eyes, and still acts the same way. Thinks the same way. Then other than powers, people are going to start to question what does light eyes really mean? The vorin church taught it was a divine mandate from the almighty himself. But if a dark eyes can potentially get there without the church, then where is this divine mandate? Why follow the church if all they are saying is what you cannot do, when you see everyday all the things you could possibly do. 

[Numuhuku he/him]

On 4/4/2019 at 9:48 AM, Gray to said:

With all this power given to just 4 highprinces, and with 6 more we don't even know about, it got me thinking: what is there left for the king?

Keeping all the specilized high princes in line. While each of them held great power, it being specilized in nature would mean that the high princes would have limited ability to act in complete independence of each-other. The high prince of war couldn't act with total independence since a high prince commerce would have significant control of purse strings. But a high prince of commerce wasn't totally powerful due to the high prince of information being able to appoint judges who cold control his actions.

 

Obviously it wasn't a fool proof system considering it fell to disuse by the time of the modern books, but it's not the most improbable of setups  I feel.