THEORY: the "lies" in Mraize's letter about Helaran... Are about Shallan's parents

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

That he was a Skybreaker "acolyte" given a deadspren Blade makes no sense; every spren we've seen abhors them as abominations, so the Skybreakers keeping a cache of them around seems unlikely. And giving one to bond (not just to "play with") to an acolyte when Szeth cannot even use Stormlight until being promoted to squire by swearing the Second Ideal until after passing a test with no powers at all. If any outfit would be very clear about the meanings of the rank designations, it would be the Skybreakers.

This part I actually disagree with. 

Spren attitudes towards the blades vary greatly. Syl and Pattern, both see them poorly, but even pattern reached the reasoning that people aren't using the corpses of spren maliciously (to the spren). Ico has a pragmatic view and says he understands why people do it, and, was just bothered by Adolin calling Maya a "friend" 

For the Highspren, pragmatism and order seem to be all. If the blades are available, what reason would they have to not see them used? If they view it on a basis of rules/laws, why would there be any rules against using something that was never supposed to exist to begin with? 

I think the assumption that all spren view blades as abhorrent, or that that feeling means they would not employ them, is premature. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

abhors them as abominations,

But the more practical ones see that they can be useful and highspren strike me as practical people.

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This part I actually disagree with. 

Spren attitudes towards the blades vary greatly. Syl and Pattern, both see them poorly, but even pattern reached the reasoning that people aren't using the corpses of spren maliciously (to the spren). Ico has a pragmatic view and says he understands why people do it, and, was just bothered by Adolin calling Maya a "friend" 

For the Highspren, pragmatism and order seem to be all. If the blades are available, why what reason would they have to not see them used? If they view it on a basis of rules/laws, why would there be any rules against using something that was never supposed to exist to begin with? 

I think the assumption that all spren view blades as abhorrent, or that that feeling means they would not employ them, is premature. 

Fair point, there is room for highspren to be less repelled by deadspren Blades than other spren. But pragmatically "understanding why people use them" and accomodating a bond with them are different things.

Renarin couldn't stand the touch of a deadspren Blade in the dueling arena after he had bonded Glys, and for Kaladin, simply touching one results in the "awful screaming" in the head and so on. Same thing with Dalinar, immediately after he bonds the Stormfather. I don't think a person CAN bond a livespren and a deadspren blade at the same time. So why give one to a candidate for later bonding a highspren?

Even if you explained that aspect away, it still doesn't pass the pragmatic "resource management" test: why would the Skybreakers give a full set of Shards to an "acolyte", who clearly couldn't use Stormlight yet? Even if their attitude towards their existence and use allowed for it, the Shards would still be immensely valuable, and at best, Helaran was a "squire" when he attacked Amaram - and one far enough away from his master Skybreaker that he couldn't use Stormlight. In which case, why would they entrust so valuable a resource on a mission to a low-level recruit and NOT send his master, at least to retrieve the Shards should he fall (as he did)? It makes no sense.

The routine answer is that Helaran was put in some kind of "Auxiliary" category of "someone who can do our dirty work without the strictures of the local laws that we would place upon ourselves", if that kind of loopholey MO would fit under Nale's guiding principles. It might. But considering how he slapped a Skybreaker squire for killing Gawx without the proper authorization from the local authorities, it seems odd that him setting out to murder Amaram while killing a number of darkeyed soldiers from Kaladin's unit on the way, without any such authorization from Amaram's highprince Sadeas or the King (the only ones who could possibly order his death in Alethkar), would ADVANCE him in standing with the Skybreakers.

And anyway: if he was loaned Shards by the Skybreakers in such a role, or by any other "secret organization", wouldn't they have made sure to be able to get them back?

[teknopathetic he/him]

Could anyone post the letter? I am an audiobook listener so I don't have a copt to reference. 

[equinox]

Quote

However, pinned to the inside of Veil’s coat was a sheet of paper. Shallan froze, then looked around the room, suddenly anxious. Hesitantly, she unpinned the sheet and unfolded it. The top read:

You have accomplished the task we set out for you. You have investigated the Unmade, and not only learned something of it, but also frightened it away. As promised, here is your reward. The following letter explains the truth about your deceased brother, Nan Helaran, acolyte of the Radiant order of the Skybreakers. (OB, ch. 39)

Quote

There are at least two major institutions on Roshar, other than ourselves, which presaged the return of the Voidbringers and the Desolations, the letter read.

You are familiar with the first of these, the men who call themselves the Sons of Honor. The old king of Alethkar—the Blackthorn’s brother, Gavilar Kholin—was a driving force in their expansion. He brought Meridas Amaram into their fold. As you no doubt discovered upon infiltrating Amaram’s mansion in the warcamps, the Sons of Honor explicitly worked for the return of the Desolations. They believed that only the Voidbringers would cause the Heralds to show themselves—and they believed that a Desolation would restore both the Knights Radiant and the classical strength of the Vorin church. King Gavilar’s efforts to rekindle the Desolations are likely the true reason he was assassinated. Though there were many in the palace that night who had reason to see him dead.

A second group who knew the Desolations might return are the Skybreakers. Led by the ancient Herald Nalan’Elin—often simply called Nale—the Skybreakers are the only order of Radiants that did not betray its oaths during the Recreance. They have maintained a continuous clandestine line from ancient days. Nale believed that men speaking the Words of other orders would hasten the return of the Voidbringers. We do not know how this could possibly be true, but as a Herald, Nale has access to knowledge and understanding beyond us. You should know that the Heralds are no longer to be seen as allies to man. Those that are not completely insane have been broken. Nale himself is ruthless, without pity or mercy. He has spent the last two decades—perhaps much longer—dealing with anyone close to bonding a spren. Sometimes he recruited these people, bonding them to highspren and making them Skybreakers. Others he eliminated. If the person had already bonded a spren, then Nale usually went in person to dispatch them. If not, he sent a minion. A minion like your brother Helaran. Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte, and you know the result of that relationship. Your brother was recruited because Nale was impressed with him. Nale may also have learned, through means we do not understand, that a member of your house was close to bonding a spren. If this is true, they came to believe that Helaran was the one they wanted. They recruited him with displays of great power and Shards. Helaran had not yet proved himself worthy of a spren bond. Nale is exacting with his recruits. Likely, Helaran was sent to kill Amaram as a test—either that or he took it upon himself as a way of proving his worthiness for knighthood. It is also possible that the Skybreakers knew someone in Amaram’s army was close to bonding a spren, but I believe it likelier that the attack on Amaram was simply a strike against the Sons of Honor. From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated. The bridgeman was not, so far as we understand, known to them. If he had been, he would certainly have been killed during his months as a slave.

It ended there. Shallan sat in her room, lit only by the faintest sphere. Helaran, a Skybreaker? And King Gavilar, working with Amaram to bring back the Desolations? Pattern buzzed with concern on her skirts and moved up onto the page, reading the letter. She whispered the words again to herself, to memorize them, for she knew she couldn’t keep this letter. It was too dangerous. “Secrets,” Pattern said. “There are lies in this letter.” (OB, ch. 40)

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by equinox

[Calderis he/him]

@robardin I was not trying to argue that Heleran did join the Skybreakers, just that I don't see the shards as a reason to exclude them. But since this is apparently the current topic... 

40 minutes ago, robardin said:

Renarin couldn't stand the touch of a deadspren Blade in the dueling arena after he had bonded Glys, and for Kaladin, simply touching one results in the "awful screaming" in the head and so on. Same thing with Dalinar, immediately after he bonds the Stormfather. I don't think a person CAN bond a livespren and a deadspren blade at the same time. So why give one to a candidate for later bonding a highspren?

Renarin reacted with a grimace the first time he touched the blade. And he kept it long enough to bond for summoning. Elhokar was about to bind a Cryptic and was bonded to his blade. Dalinar was bonded to a blade and dropped it at the Stormfather's request. 

I do not think this is an actual hard rule, just an impediment to certain types of spren. 

46 minutes ago, robardin said:

The routine answer is that Helaran was put in some kind of "Auxiliary" category of "someone who can do our dirty work without the strictures of the local laws that we would place upon ourselves", if that kind of loopholey MO would fit under Nale's guiding principles. It might. But considering how he slapped a Skybreaker squire for killing Gawx without the proper authorization from the local authorities, it seems odd that him setting out to murder Amaram while killing a number of darkeyed soldiers from Kaladin's unit on the way, without any such authorization from Amaram's highprince Sadeas or the King (the only ones who could possibly order his death in Alethkar), would ADVANCE him in standing with the Skybreakers.

Considering their oaths I highly doubt that the Skybreakers willingly employ "extralegal" underlings to do things that they themselves cannot. But they are willing to exploit loopholes, and a battlefield is one giant loophole. 

If this was the Skybreakers, the target was obviously Amaram most likely because of what the Sons of Honor were doing. Why would you send a Radiant in and cause all kinds of questions bout the glowing armor and blade, let alone powers when you can send in a normal Shardbearer to a battle with no Shardbearer present and fully expect them (under normal circumstances) to wade through the battlefield, kill their target, and leave without issue? Kaladin was most definitely not an expected factor here. 

And I think that aspect is true, regardless of which group provided the shards.