Cosmere FTL - why?

[old man moomba he/him]

3 hours ago, Jofwu said:

There's several ways to do FTL without saying, "Who's Einstein? Just go faster." 

"Behold my Handwavium Drive! Nothing can stop me now, not even nature! Mwahahahahaha!!!!"

[Jofwu he/him]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There's a potential faster way to cruise the Cosmere if they can get it figured out. Travel through the Spiritual Realm in an improbability drive ship.

Now we're talking! A Fortune Drive!

Press the big red button and you instantly find yourself wherever it is in the cosmere that you need to be.

[tmnsquirtle]

3 hours ago, Jofwu said:

Press the big red button and you instantly find yourself wherever it is in the cosmere that you need to be.

1

Hoid's favorite method of transport.

 

Returning to the main discussion, it seems like the logistics of moving large quantities of objects around through the cognitive realm would be expensive and/or messy. Just because we invented airplanes doesn't mean it's always cost-effective to abruptly using cargo liners to ship all our tons and tons of cargo.

[Gasper he/him]

2 hours ago, tmnsquirtle said:

Hoid's favorite method of transport.

 

Returning to the main discussion, it seems like the logistics of moving large quantities of objects around through the cognitive realm would be expensive and/or messy. Just because we invented airplanes doesn't mean it's always cost-effective to abruptly using cargo liners to ship all our tons and tons of cargo.

There might be a physical limit to how much material you can push through a perpendiculary at a time before something bad happens. That might be why they start developing FTL, maybe one of the perpendicularys gets shutdown for a long period of time and they have to build ships to go off world.

[not an Evil Librarian]

I'm pretty sure that the only reason the cognitive realm is able to be used for worldhopping is that no one in the cosmere so far has any concept of space, or the sheer vastness of the universe. So, in the cognitive realm, the worlds are not that far apart. Is it possible that in the future, with a proper understanding of the distance between worlds, the cognitive realm could change to match the way people think of the cosmere? 

Edited March 11, 2019 by not an Evil Librarian

[+Invocation]

9 minutes ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

Is it possible that in the future, with a proper understanding of the distance between worlds, the cognitive realm could change to match the way people think of the cosmere? 

There was a thread that this came up in a while back. I think the general consensus was no, except in pockets for any colony that had been continually populated enough to affect the Cognitive Realm and form an actual place there that wasn't just obsidian.

[Calderis he/him]

12 minutes ago, not an Evil Librarian said:

I'm pretty sure that the only reason the cognitive realm is able to be used for worldhopping is that no one in the cosmere so far has any concept of space, or the sheer vastness of the universe. So, in the cognitive realm, the worlds are not that far apart. Is it possible that in the future, with a proper understanding of the distance between worlds, the cognitive realm could change to match the way people think of the cosmere? 

I had the same theory, and believed that Physical FTL travel would become a necessity... It has since been debunked though. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Cosmere, as space becomes more developed...*inaudible* outer space.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's an interesting question that I've had to ponder. Would the space race happen more slowly because there's an alternative, or would it happen more quickly because you know other planets are inhabited. I'm not going to answer what I came up with, because it's a plot point in the books. So I'll give you a RAFO card, but that's the question to ask yourself.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That wasn't my question! My question was, in the Cognitive Realm, with the gap between planets...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh! Will the gap between planets get larger as more people travel in between it. So, barring things like space stations, there's going to be so few minds in between, that I don't expect space to become larger because of that.

I don't expect it to be a factor, except--barring--there will be possibilities of certain regions popping up.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

I had the same theory, and believed that Physical FTL travel would become a necessity... It has since been debunked though. 

 

I do not think it is debunked. A WoB that I posted below, as well as the WoB you posted does mention as more celestial bodies are discovered and thought about, the landscape of the cognitive realm would change. The space between would not change just because people are flying through it, but if a moon can get a cognitive presence just from being viewed and enough people thinking about it, then as technology advances with telescopes, drones, and satellites, I think the landscape would most definitely change and start to necessitate space travel over cognitive realm travel. Basically I am using Pluto as an example. If we were in the cosmere, Pluto wouldn't exist in the cognitive realm for quite some time. Then once it got discovered via telescopes, got named a planet, and started popping up in school textbooks, you have the overall populace thinking about it, now it becomes a cognitive presence. A presence people potentially have to travel through or around to get to earth now. So I do still think the necessity could potentially arise. 

 

Questioner
So like as far as distance traveled in Shadesmar. 

Brandon Sanderson
Mhm

Questioner
So when Kelsier...

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah.

Questioner
...in Shadesmar. He meets the Ire, who are presumably Elantrian.

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

Questioner
Like how far did he travel? Is that still within Scadrial's realm of the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, that's within-- he has s-- By the time he meets them he has slipped right to the edge of the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and into kind of the darkness between planets. 

Questioner
Okay.

Brandon Sanderson
He's close enough that he can get there. But he's kind of suffused with Scadrian Investiture then, to a point that it would be harder--you saw in there--for him to get further. I would say that he's like... He has entered space between planets, but he's not out of the solar system.

Questioner
Okay, so he's <still there> in the Scadrian system, just...

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yep.

Questioner
Okay, just edging it there.

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, mhm. That's what I'd say if I had to actually point <at> him. I would get really fuzzy though, because it wouldn't be too much longer before he enters another solar system. Like he would pass lightyears in steps as he starts getting further, if that makes any sense.

Questioner
That makes sense, because, I mean, with worldhopping in general it's like... You can only... I mean it's... I don't know how the time dilation works per se, but...

Brandon Sanderson
It's not-- there's not much time dilation. What you've got going on is... Things that people aren't around to think about, things without minds or any sort of life, don't manifest on Shadesmar very much at all. And so the space between planets gets really small, unless there's another planet out there with thinking beings or at least some sort of life on it. Like even lower lifeforms, you'll get something manifesting on Shadesmar. But yeah.

Questioner
Okay. So the Cognitive Realm, in Shadesmar...

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah.

Questioner
...in the Cognitive Realm... It's kind of the... Any kind of sentient or cognitive life-- that's what is building Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah, yeah.

Questioner
So like anything where there's blackness... is like... condensed or--

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, yes. Particularly if no one's thinking about it? If people are thinking about it.. like, for instance, an island in the ocean that was scoured of all life and even bacteria would still manifest in Shadesmar on that planet because people are aware of it and things like this. But one on the other side of the planet, that no one ever knew about it, probably wouldn't.

Questioner
So that same island, if people just stopped thinking about it or like stopped being aware it's *inaudible* would it...

Brandon Sanderson
It could slowly vanish, yes. And so-- But that's more of a thought experiment. You're never gonna have a planet that that happens to, you know cause...

Questioner
Right.

Brandon Sanderson
But thought experiment wise, yes, that would eventually kind of get consumed by Shadesmar and vanish. The same thing would happen to a planet that you strip the atmosphere from--all the bacteria and life dies on it--you know, slowly going to vanish. But a moon will still manifest because people are thinking about it. It'll just not-- it won't-- it'll be hoakie, it'll be weird--the moon will be. Like you might find a little patch that represents the moon. Something like that.

Questioner
That's interesting.

Brandon Sanderson
You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Calderis he/him]

@Pathfinder I understand that. It still isn't creating the issue I spoke OK. Thing that are thought of but don't foster actual minds can get  representation, but it's going to be more of a blip than an actual subastral landscape like we see on Scadrial and Roshar. That's shown in the WoBs you posted at the end, about the moon. 

The vast expanses of light years between worlds that are the real issue will be unaffected. 

 

[HSuperLee]

I don't think Shadesmar can ever get close to the size of the physical realm. You can understand the distance you use in everyday life. You can understand ten, twenty miles. Then take everyone on the planet, and that population can pretty well understand and think about the entire planet. 

There is no way to understand the distances involved on a cosmological scale. The human brain just cannot comprehend it. As such, I do not believe that Shadesmar can grow the spaces in between planets very much. Now, new planets emerging and warping space I can get behind.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder I understand that. It still isn't creating the issue I spoke OK. Thing that are thought of but don't foster actual minds can get  representation, but it's going to be more of a blip than an actual subastral landscape like we see on Scadrial and Roshar. That's shown in the WoBs you posted at the end, about the moon. 

The vast expanses of light years between worlds that are the real issue will be unaffected. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I don't think Shadesmar can ever get close to the size of the physical realm. You can understand the distance you use in everyday life. You can understand ten, twenty miles. Then take everyone on the planet, and that population can pretty well understand and think about the entire planet. 

There is no way to understand the distances involved on a cosmological scale. The human brain just cannot comprehend it. As such, I do not believe that Shadesmar can grow the spaces in between planets very much. Now, new planets emerging and warping space I can get behind.

Writing here to reply to both Calderis and HSuperLee. 

Brandon did say visiting. That makes me wonder, if you send a probe that takes full video of a planet, is that considered visiting? He mentions microbes counting. Would "space bears" count? It has been shown that they could survive the vacuum of space. If some of them hitched a ride on that drone and ended up chilling on the moon or planet, would that cause it to have a greater cognitive presence? If someone traveling through the cognitive realm (potentially) peers into the physical realm and sees a planet and decides to take a look and pops into the physical, and then more world hoppers visit and then set up shop there, doesn't that planet then gain a cognitive presence that then begins to change the distance for those travelers to travel that particular route? I agree the vast light years between planets would remain unchanged, but has every planet been discovered? Has every moon, and star? If faster than light travel could potentially get you through a more "populated" area of space (meaning more planets, moons and other celestial bodies around the sun) faster than walking, wouldn't that still be a necessity? @Calderis to be clear I am having a conversation. Thinking things through based on the WoB we got and contemplating how it could play out. Hopefully that is received as intended. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+ILuvHats he/him]

One thing I don’t think I’ve seen much talk of is the use of ground transportation in the cognitive realm. If you could get a train system there, especially one that runs on fuel found in shadesmar, you could suddenly make a journey in 2-3 weeks that would normally take half a year. I don’t think FTL travel would go too much faster than that. Technically it could, but I imagine that Brandon would still want traveling between planets to be a bit of a journey, something taking longer than a day or two. Obviously, cognitive realm trains would require an insane amount of  infrastructure, and other modes of transportation, like air travel or trucks, are much less fuel efficient. But time wise, it seems to me like a close match for FTL.