Book 2 speculation *Spoilers*

[tipbruley]

Interesting. That's pretty divergent from a lot of people on the boards who love Shallan. Care to elaborate?

I think there are three main reasons

1) I find her rants and dialog more obnoxious than humorous or witty. She is just really being an @$$ to everyone. I'm guessing this is what is a differing factor for me.

2) Her plot to steal from Jasnah is completely selfish, which she even puts off selfishly because she wants to study. So her family will end up poor, what's the big deal? Is being a commoner that bad? She decides to steal from a foreign princess something almost invaluable so her her land can produce more trade. What about her and her deadbeat brothers doing something useful or using that blade she has? On top of that she can't even pull the trigger on being selfish for her family because she likes studying so much.

3) I thought Jasnah was a much cooler character and instead of focusing on her, we had to hear Shallan flirt with some stupid Ardent and complain about life.

I also don't find the whole "I killed my father and I have a shard blade" that interesting of a subplot. She probably won't even use it. After a couple minutes of her dialog, I bet Szeth breaks his vows and eats his own shardblade to end her obnoxious tirade.

There you have it. Shallan is probably my least liked Sanderson character (of the ones you are supposed to like).

Edited January 31, 2012 by tipbruley

[Aradel]

I think there are three main reasons

1) I find her rants and dialog more obnoxious than humorous or witty. She is just really being an @$$ to everyone. I'm guessing this is what is a differing factor for me.

2) Her plot to steal from Jasnah is completely selfish, which she even puts off selfishly because she wants to study. So her family will end up poor, what's the big deal? Is being a commoner that bad? She decides to steal from a foreign princess something almost invaluable so her her land can produce more trade. What about her and her deadbeat brothers doing something useful or using that blade she has? On top of that she can't even pull the trigger on being selfish for her family because she likes studying so much.

3) I thought Jasnah was a much cooler character and instead of focusing on her, we had to hear Shallan flirt with some stupid Ardent and complain about life.

I also don't find the whole "I killed my father and I have a shard blade" that interesting of a subplot. She probably won't even use it. After a couple minutes of her dialog, I bet Szeth breaks his vows and eats his own shardblade to end her obnoxious tirade.

There you have it. Shallan is probably my least liked Sanderson character (of the ones you are supposed to like).

Her family wasn't going to be poor, they were going to be bankrupt. And if the rest of roshar is anything to judge by, their creditors are going to collect rather violently if they don't have the money. In other words her family's goose is well and cooked without the mines a working soulcaster would provide.

That and I felt Shallan's chapters were less about her being selfish and more about her struggling to resolve the timidity and hesitation that's been trained into her with the rebelliousness she comes by naturally. She can come off as wishy-washy if you don't read it right.

[Guest Jacob Santos]

Her family wasn't going to be poor, they were going to be bankrupt. And if the rest of roshar is anything to judge by, their creditors are going to collect rather violently if they don't have the money. In other words her family's goose is well and cooked without the mines a working soulcaster would provide.

That and I felt Shallan's chapters were less about her being selfish and more about her struggling to resolve the timidity and hesitation that's been trained into her with the rebelliousness she comes by naturally. She can come off as wishy-washy if you don't read it right.

Agreed. It was read so well by Kate Reading that I couldn't help but feel for the character, even through, I did kind of agree that she was selfish and foolish at times. What else would she be? She is a child! If she was an adult, I think it would be slightly different.

My interpretation of Way of Kings and what I believe what Brandon was trying to achieve is the resolve of the characters in a bleak dark world where everything sucks and then you die... most often horribly.

It is perhaps one of the best examples of a really bad situation where you (I) still feel that there is a possibility of a happy ending. I mean, it is impressive. I remember listening and thinking, "Oh woe is the character! Why do you cause the characters such angst?" Then something good happens and then you're all like, "Oh great, maybe it will end happily." And then something terrible happens and you lose all hope again.

Aside from all of the artificial conflicts and happy-go-luckily BS, it was, quite refreshing. Very refreshing. So the characters are somewhat emo, but they have a very good reason, unlike real life emos who have none.

[kari-no-sugata]

Resurrecting an old thread a bit...

In Book 1, we saw very little regarding plots between women - Shallan was pretty much the only female viewpoint we got and there wasn't much chance for politics in her situation. But with her and Jasnah heading to the Shattered Plains I'd expect this to change.

I remember there being a comment about how there's always plots going on in the capital but that the queen could handle it - I wonder if we'll see a viewpoint or two from her (particularly given who turned up at the end of book 1). That comment suggests to me that there'd definitely power battles going on directly involving the women - and it would hardly be a surprise either.

So, whether she likes it or not I expect Shallan to have to deal with some "soft power" type battles between women - there'll be people who'll try to attack her (considering her weak) as a way to get to Jasnah for example. In book 1, Shallan jokes about "getting behind the assuredness movement" since it's easier to stab that way. Maybe Shallan will actually get a chance to do that for real

In the first book, there was two or three bits that indicated that Shallan has a Shardblade. Given so many, it feels more like "avoiding a deus ex machina" rather than just regular foreshadowing - I dont think Brandon would hint quite so much if he didn't plan to make Shallan finally summon it in book 2. Will be interesting to see what causes her to finally do it...

Edited June 26, 2012 by kari-no-sugata

[Yados]

Resurrecting an old thread a bit...

In Book 1, we saw very little regarding plots between women - Shallan was pretty much the only female viewpoint we got and there wasn't much chance for politics in her situation. But with her and Jasnah heading to the Shattered Plains I'd expect this to change.

I remember there being a comment about how there's always plots going on in the capital but that the queen could handle it - I wonder if we'll see a viewpoint or two from her (particularly given who turned up at the end of book 1). That comment suggests to me that there'd definitely power battles going on directly involving the women - and it would hardly be a surprise either.

So, whether she likes it or not I expect Shallan to have to deal with some "soft power" type battles between women - there'll be people who'll try to attack her (considering her weak) as a way to get to Jasnah for example. In book 1, Shallan jokes about "getting behind the assuredness movement" since it's easier to stab that way. Maybe Shallan will actually get a chance to do that for real

In the first book, there was two or three bits that indicated that Shallan has a Shardblade. Given so many, it feels more like "avoiding a deus ex machina" rather than just regular foreshadowing - I dont think Brandon would hint quite so much if he didn't plan to make Shallan finally summon it in book 2. Will be interesting to see what causes her to finally do it...

Or she could find lots of friends who share her passion for scholarship and, more notably, art.

It's not cool to just assume that whatever female characters Shallan meets will naturally fall into an adversarial relationship. It's assumptions like this both from both readers and writers that leads to the dirth of female friendships in popular fiction. Sure there could be politics at work w/ regards to Jasnah, but they're going to the seat of her power. There would likely be less of an inclination to mess with her than in Karbranth.

Honestly, it's a bit of a weak point in Sanderson's output. He's great crafting interesting female protagonists, but whenever there's an ensamble of supporting characters... they always seem to be male.

Shallan was a nice exception, but she only got one female supporting character. Meanwhile, Kaladin and Dalinar had around five to fifteen supporting characters of their own gender each.

Isn't it weird we don't see that as weird?

[kari-no-sugata]

Or she could find lots of friends who share her passion for scholarship and, more notably, art.

That too.

Shallan's art has made an impact in smaller settings but now she'll be moving to the court of the king of the biggest nation around. It'll be interesting to see how people react to her, and her art.

It's not cool to just assume that whatever female characters Shallan meets will naturally fall into an adversarial relationship. It's assumptions like this both from both readers and writers that leads to the dirth of female friendships in popular fiction. Sure there could be politics at work w/ regards to Jasnah, but they're going to the seat of her power. There would likely be less of an inclination to mess with her than in Karbranth.

Woah there. I seem to have trodden on a landmine here...

I was certainly not saying that we should expect all new female characters to be adversarial. Not would I want that. Why would I? It'd be boring.

All I was saying was that would should expect to see "some" of this. I also thought it might be a bit amusing (in a dark way) if Shallan's back-stabbing comments turned out to be prophetic, but I'd kinda prefer it if they didn't.

[Yados]

That too.

Shallan's art has made an impact in smaller settings but now she'll be moving to the court of the king of the biggest nation around. It'll be interesting to see how people react to her, and her art.

Woah there. I seem to have trodden on a landmine here...

I was certainly not saying that we should expect all new female characters to be adversarial. Not would I want that. Why would I? It'd be boring.

All I was saying was that would should expect to see "some" of this. I also thought it might be a bit amusing (in a dark way) if Shallan's back-stabbing comments turned out to be prophetic, but I'd kinda prefer it if they didn't.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat. It's just a common assumption that shapes a lot of portrayals of women in popular fiction/media. It's also kind of a pet peeve.

The problem is two-fold.

Let's assume that the main character is male. In that case, almost all the female character characters involved with that main character have some sort of sexual tension with the lead or are in a protective role. Both roles breed conflict, partially because the roles almost inherently set the characters against one another but also, sadly, because many authors view women as catty or easily scorned.

On the other hand, if a female character is the main character, there is almost always something "different" about that character that differentiates them from other female characters in their society. You get your Laura Crofts or your Xenas, action heroes in worlds where girls are not assumed to be action heroes, but also characters that have had something awful happen to them, making them unwilling to fit into their society's prescribed roles. Usually, this leads them to hold a certain amount of disdain for other female characters that are either participating or enforcing the societal assumptions that they reject/rebel against.

What results is a marked lack of female friendships, but more importantly a lack of female supporting casts. Women without something to differentiate themselves from "other girls" are either boring or antagonistic to the main character.

...Sounds simple but it crops up a lot in all media. Especially, sadly, in media aimed towards women.

I know you weren't trying to imply anything.

Actually, Shallan is pretty likely to not get along with the nobles at the Shattered Plains. She has that "all brothers no friends" archetype which is sadly typical of a "cool girl". But, I'd wager most of that animosity will come from Shallan and be subverted as misplaced.

I mean, aside from the lack of supporting characters in Mistborn, Sanderson did a great job with Vin and Orene (sp?). Vin subverts a lot of action hero girl tropes. Furthermore, her exploration of her own femininity was never trivialized and was always treated as a matter of identity for Vin. Vin's notions about Orene were also subverted.

So we'll see. On paper, The Stormlight Archive crafts a world where women don't have to break out of their gender roles to be influential and powerful by our modern, western european standards. But then, the highest ideal of the series also seems to be dressing in big armor and wielding huge swords.

Also, I'm pretty wary of a "Shallan is so good at art that all the noblewomen hate her" plotline. But then, that could easily turn into "Shallan is so good at art that all the noblewomen love and want to learn from her". Once again, we'll see.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Yados

[kari-no-sugata]

Yados, we could spend a lot of time discussing this I'm sure. I certainly dont want "more of the same" myself and I find it a bit depressing how often this sells. Personally, I'll happily read fiction aimed at any gender/age group so long as it is innovative and/or just done really well. I have noticed "problems" with all categories - kinda happens if you read/watch enough.

btw, do you listen to Writing Excuses at all? In a recent episode Brandon had an in-depth discussion about The Way of Kings (from a writer's point of view):

http://www.writingexcuses.com/2012/06/10/writing-excuses-7-24-project-in-depth-way-of-kings/

Not much is particularly relevant to this discussion though. But, I think it's safe to say that Brandon puts a lot of work into the design of his world, while also trying to keep them realistic within their own context. Fortunately, in fantasy settings with magic, it's easier to have female characters with strong roles without it seeming forced. But if the only truly interesting female characters are those with special powers that leads to other problems with "balance" within the story. So I like Bradon's idea for the Stormlight Archive that within the Vorin culture roles are strongly split by gender... though maybe this wasn't used to best effect in book 1.

Going back to what we might see in book 2, particularly with regards to Shallan... It will be interesting to see how Dalinar becoming "highprince of war" changes the "setting": in book 1 there has been regular feasting and a good amount of socialising between the various war-camps. With Dalinar putting the camps on a proper war-footing and taking away the "games" of the other highprinces, his camp might be a bit isolated and there will probably be less socialising in general. However, I would certainly expect there to be regular social events - feasts after (successful) major battles would probably be a good idea politically for example.

So when Shallan arrives, maybe she'll be able to enjoy things to start off with since I imagine she'll be spending almost all her time in Dalinar's camp - ie among allies. It will be interesting to see how her peers in Dalinar's camp treat her: Jasnah did get lots of requests for wardship after all, so we can imagine there being a jealous reject or two. Since Shallan's from a foreign country, how will she be treated? Hopefully most will give her the benefit of the doubt and she'll be able to make some new friends. It seems like a good bet she'll be able to get along with Jasnah's mother - maybe we will see all 3 working together regularly?

[FeatherWriter]

I mean, aside from the lack of supporting characters in Mistborn, Sanderson did a great job with Vin and Orene (sp?). Vin subverts a lot of action hero girl tropes. Furthermore, her exploration of her own femininity was never trivialized and was always treated as a matter of identity for Vin. Vin's notions about Orene were also subverted.

I'm assuming you meant Allriane here. The girly, noblewoman Rioter who loves Breeze, right?

Your points about girl's friendships in media is very interesting. It's not something I'd ever thought about. As a writer, I'm always on the lookout for common pitfalls that authors fall into with characters - so I loved reading through your analysis.

I don't think I've ever really had a problem with antagonizing my female characters, but now that I think about it, it is very common in other works. Perhaps that's because I'm a girl, and my closest friends are all girls as well. Writing female friendships is just an extension of my life.

It's saddening that writers miss out on the opportunity to write female friends, there's some really great kinds of relationships to explore here. I hope Brandon handles Shallan's mingling with other girls well. I'd love to get another female lead Shallan's age and have a really good friendship dynamic in the group.

Though I have a feeling Shallan and Syl would get along well too...

[kari-no-sugata]

Actually, Shallan is pretty likely to not get along with the nobles at the Shattered Plains. She has that "all brothers no friends" archetype which is sadly typical of a "cool girl". But, I'd wager most of that animosity will come from Shallan and be subverted as misplaced.

I dont see Shallan fitting into the "cool girl" archetype.

Nan Balat thinks of her as "shy, quiet, delicate" - true in some ways but it seems they never really understood her (also makes we wonder what they know about what happened to their father - would he really think that if he knew she'd killed him?). She's not aloof or tomboyish but not particularly girlish. She seems to be able to get along with people in general readily enough, even if her tongue can be a bit of a problem.

I find it rather hard to categorise her, which is just fine by me in many ways though some times I do wonder how we're supposed to react to her as readers: her remaining family aren't developed enough to make us sympathise with them strongly, so it's hard to "cheer" for her in her plan to steal for Jasnah. Shallan also effectively condemns and judges herself her theft, both before and after. Are we supposed to permanently condemn her too, or forgive her for her immaturity? And what are we to make of her admitting to killing her own father?

She's quite a curious and interesting character yet also frustrating too.

btw, does anyone else get a certain amount of "impending doom" for her brothers? There's this financial crisis they're facing, but also twice a bunch of Ghostbloods have come to visit and threaten them. Might they come to consider Shallan and/or her brothers a threat to be neutralised before too much info about them is leaked?

[Aethling]

You have to remember that Shallan is:

1. A teenage girl-What teenager isn't wierd, prissy, or entitled?

2. She comes from a minor upperclass family.

3. She was protected as the favorite in a family. She would probably faint if someone actually told her to do something herself unless they were from a vastly superior family.

4. She has never been out on her own before.

You put those things together with the stress of being the sole hope for your entire bloodline, and yeah, you are going to get a character that is just a wee bit messed up.

[Yados]

I dont see Shallan fitting into the "cool girl" archetype.

Nan Balat thinks of her as "shy, quiet, delicate" - true in some ways but it seems they never really understood her (also makes we wonder what they know about what happened to their father - would he really think that if he knew she'd killed him?). She's not aloof or tomboyish but not particularly girlish. She seems to be able to get along with people in general readily enough, even if her tongue can be a bit of a problem.

Oh, see, I didn't mean "cool girl" like action hero or tomboy, though sometimes it does mean the latter.

I meant "cool girl" as the girl who has no female friends, who grew up with all brothers and that's what makes her not fit in with girls her age/not like the other girls. Usually female characters identify as it for why they have masculine traits or can do random feats of fighting/car mechanics but its also often used for the sort of socially maladjusted girl who only has guy friends.

Now, of course, Shallan had no friends at all growing up (it seems) so I don't know if she'll fit the trope, but it's just a set up that set off the warning light in my head. We'll see how she's played when she has to deal with other girls her own age.

[Inkthinker]

Sorry, feel like between my K/A shipping (which I knew full well would gain no traction here so I should have given it a wide berth) and my post in that "Is Arangar Homosexual?" thread that I've become the "gay poster."

K/A.... Kaladin... Andolin?

That's... wow. Completely off the rails, but wow. What a pairing. That's practically up there with Sam/Dean shipping (minus the incest angle).

Edited June 29, 2012 by Inkthinker

[Inkthinker]

Her family wasn't going to be poor, they were going to be bankrupt. And if the rest of roshar is anything to judge by, their creditors are going to collect rather violently if they don't have the money. In other words her family's goose is well and cooked without the mines a working soulcaster would provide.

Bear in mind as well (and I'm almost certain that this was explicitly clear in the book) that it's not just about Shallan's family. They're the local lighteyes of wherever (Jah Kaved, but I don't recall what they're in charge of there), which presumably means that they've got lands and such to care for. Being a noble family means being responsible for an exponetially expanded group of people beyond just her immediate relatives. If her family goes under, then so do their retainers, associates, servants, etc. Their territory will be taken over by someone else, quite possibly someone who will be worse for the local darkeyes.

And yes, as mentioned... if they can't pay their debts, they're not going to be exiled to a farm to live in rags. Her family is going to be systematically assassinated. Maybe the women will live... but they might wish they hadn't.

[Inkthinker]

Kaladin's asexuality made me ship Kaladin/Syl....well, at least half-seriously.

Kaladin's hardly asexual, he's had at least two romantic relationships. Both of which ended badly, and he's spent most of Book 1 with a bad case of "everyone who gets close to me dies", which kept him from pursuing any relationships. Not that I recall a lot of opportunities... lately he's been hanging out in a sausage fest, and he's too noble to partake of camp prostitutes (presuming bridge crew are even allowed), so there's been no subject for Kaladin to be romantic involved with.

If he's been seen as "asexual", it's been a matter of circumstance as much as character. I expect that won't last long.

I do wonder if we might get a Tinkerbell moment with Syl/Kaladin at some point. But I don't see them ever being an actual couple. Though Sanderson might surprise us, you can never tell with that guy.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Inkthinker

[kari-no-sugata]

You have to remember that Shallan is:

1. A teenage girl-What teenager isn't wierd, prissy, or entitled?

2. She comes from a minor upperclass family.

3. She was protected as the favorite in a family. She would probably faint if someone actually told her to do something herself unless they were from a vastly superior family.

4. She has never been out on her own before.

You put those things together with the stress of being the sole hope for your entire bloodline, and yeah, you are going to get a character that is just a wee bit messed up.

I presume you're responding to my post talking about her personality.

However, I'd like to direct your attention to these words: "I do wonder how we're supposed to react to her as readers"

That is, I'm not really sure how the author intended us to see her. Kaladin and Dalinar aren't easy to describe in a few words or to pigeon-hole either, but for all their complexity they dont seem particularly difficult to interpret.

Well, it's kinda my problem - bit hard to explain really. I think I mostly get her but some things seem a bit off.

btw, going to your points above: I disagree with you on point 3. You're basically saying she's spoilt, right (or something similar)? It's not like she was doted on (as best as I can tell) but more like "bird in a gilded cage" - very much trapped by her father's arbitrary ideal of a perfect daughter. More like a prisoner to his expectations, hidden away. She seems to have accepted that but also secretly went against him in some small ways. Remember that all her tutors left after a few months citing her father's temper - which is why she had to teach herself a lot of things. She seems quite industrious and does all sorts of studying in her free time. Also, to give a specific counter: early on (page 133) Yalb tells Shallan to try a third time (with Jasnah) - instead of fainting or castigating him for telling her what to do, she counters with probability theory.

[Yados]

K/A.... Kaladin... Andolin?

That's... wow. Completely off the rails, but wow. What a pairing. That's practically up there with Sam/Dean shipping (minus the incest angle).

Hah, I remember that post!

I don't really ship, but I do listen to my girlfriend go on and on about how amazing the John/Sherlock ship is from BBC's Sherlock. But then that's entirely fair because it's a pretty amazing ship and is obviously half the point of the whole show despite what some writers and producers might claim.

Regardless of shipping, I'm interested to see if Adolin and Kaladin have a lot of scenes together next book. They seem like they'd be good foils and have a lot of friendship potential if they could get over their obvious differences.

That the set up could also breed sexual tension is merely a bonus.

Also:

Huh, my "tropes that get in the way of female friendships in fiction" post got down-repped. Did I offend someone?

[kari-no-sugata]

Bear in mind as well (and I'm almost certain that this was explicitly clear in the book) that it's not just about Shallan's family. They're the local lighteyes of wherever (Jah Kaved, but I don't recall what they're in charge of there), which presumably means that they've got lands and such to care for. Being a noble family means being responsible for an exponetially expanded group of people beyond just her immediate relatives. If her family goes under, then so do their retainers, associates, servants, etc. Their territory will be taken over by someone else, quite possibly someone who will be worse for the local darkeyes.

When bankruptcy hits, one would imagine the creditors taking any and all assets they could get, stripping the estates bare and anything they legally owned. That would have a big effect on the local economy even if the new owners were nice and friendly - instead I'd imagine them raising taxes and doing everything else to squeeze money out of the place.

The situation seems quite similar to Wax's (from The Alloy of Law) in many ways, though I dont remember the side effects on those outside the immediate family were explicitly laid out in Shallan's case.

There's not much detail in the books about House Davar - according to Nan Balat's interlude, it's in south western Jah Keved, near the Horneater Peaks (with her solid red hair, I suspect Rock will take a shine to Shallan, presuming they meet). There's also a comment about the house being ancient, but not much more than that.

There's only one real quote I could find about what could happen, from page 72:

There was nobody to turn to. Her family, mostly because of her father, was loathed even by its allies. Highprince Valam - the brightlord to whom to family gave fealty - was ailing, and no longer offered them the protection he once had. When it become known that her father was dead and her family bankrupt, that would be the end of House Davar. They'd be consumed and subjugate to another house.

They'd be worked to the bone as punishment - in fact, they might even face assassination by disgruntled creditors.

On page 113, Shallan describes her family's estates as "isolated, backcountry". There's a suggestion that marble had been mined in the past when it says her father had fabricated new ones. Apart from that, no indication that I remember that they were anything other than generic minor landowners.

[Aethling]

He encourages her to do something. I can see that type of response. I was thinking more if she went to an area that did not give lighteyes the same level of respect and expected someone to pour her wine, clean her room, or make her bed, that type of stuff. She has been doted on by her family and been around servants for her entire life.

As a more modern example. Say an English nobleman came over to the US and went to a small southern town and expected that everyone would do as he says and serve him just because he is used to that level of respect back home. I can almost guarantee that he would be shocked by the response if he just pulled someone off the street and ordered them to haul his luggage or get him his food/drink. At the very least, he would hear language his ears had probably never heard before. At the worst, he may be running for his life if he pulled off the wrong person. To me, Shallan still has the aristocratic veneer, but it is gradually being eroded by her situation. Still, I do not doubt she would expect darkeyes in the warcamp to kowtow.

[kari-no-sugata]

Kaladin's hardly asexual, he's had at least two romantic relationships. Both of which ended badly, and he's spent most of Book 1 with a bad case of "everyone who gets close to me dies", which kept him from pursuing any relationships.

Just a bit

But yeah, there was Laral (daughter of local lord) who ended up marrying (we presume) the replacement lord (fat, middle-aged near cripple)... and some woman from his slave days though I can't seem to find the reference (was very brief and vague though I think) but it seems she died in a failed escape attempt or something.

With everything that he's been through, I tend to imagine Kaladin having a mental age of 40

Not that I recall a lot of opportunities... lately he's been hanging out in a sausage fest, and he's too noble to partake of camp prostitutes (presuming bridge crew are even allowed), so there's been no subject for Kaladin to be romantic involved with.

Seems bridge crew are allowed (or at least not banned):

Page 215: The crew would like that; they could spend payday losing their spheres on gambling or whores, perhaps forgetting for a short time the miserable lives they lived.

But yeah, all his time/energy/money was going on mere survival.... and I doubt whores would have given him any solace.

If he's been seen as "asexual", it's been a matter of circumstance as much as character. I expect that won't last long.

I do wonder if we might get a Tinkerbell moment with Syl/Kaladin at some point. But I don't see them ever being an actual couple. Though Sanderson might surprise us, you can never tell with that guy.

Hmm, Tinkerbell moment huh. Rather hard to imagine. Though on a related note, imagine Kaladin having some romance while having Syl looking over his shoulder...

[Windrunner]

But yeah, there was Laral (daughter of local lord) who ended up marrying (we presume) the replacement lord (fat, middle-aged near cripple)... and some woman from his slave days though I can't seem to find the reference (was very brief and vague though I think) but it seems she died in a failed escape attempt or something.

I'll just pop in here to add some facts. The name of the second woman is Tarah. She did not die in an escape attempt, Kaladin met her in Amaram's army after the death of Tien. He was in a period of obsession over learning to master the spear, so he wouldn't ever fail to protect someone again. She managed to coax him back to some level of normalcy. Kaladin says that his failure with her was "different" from all his others, leading to a possible romantic failure rather then death on her part. Hope this doesn't sound condescending at all, the only reason I know anything is because I literally just read this part like two days ago.

[kari-no-sugata]

He encourages her to do something. I can see that type of response. I was thinking more if she went to an area that did not give lighteyes the same level of respect and expected someone to pour her wine, clean her room, or make her bed, that type of stuff. She has been doted on by her family and been around servants for her entire life.

As a more modern example. Say an English nobleman came over to the US and went to a small southern town and expected that everyone would do as he says and serve him just because he is used to that level of respect back home. I can almost guarantee that he would be shocked by the response if he just pulled someone off the street and ordered them to haul his luggage or get him his food/drink. At the very least, he would hear language his ears had probably never heard before. At the worst, he may be running for his life if he pulled off the wrong person. To me, Shallan still has the aristocratic veneer, but it is gradually being eroded by her situation. Still, I do not doubt she would expect darkeyes in the warcamp to kowtow.

There does seem to be a protocol for lighteyes dealing with servants which Shallan seems to observe and respect. She also seems to respect those who who perform their duty well. She doesn't seem to consider that all darkeyes are automatically servants - I can't think of any line that gives such an impression. I dont know what she would do in your hypothetical example - she might just wander around looking for a master-servant rather than ask random darkeyes. It's entirely possible her adventurous tongue could get her into trouble, but I dont think that's what you're suggesting here.

We dont see her dealing with darkeyes much but consider this quote from page 67:

She'd had to get used to gentle flirtation from the sailors. They were never too forward, and she suspected the captain's wife had spoken to them sternly when she'd noticed how it made Shallan blush. Back at her father's manor, servants - even those who had been full citizens - had been afraid to step out of their places.

Though she finds this flirtation uncomfortable, this passage suggests she didn't do anything to object to it - even though she wasn't used to it at all. If she excepted all darkeyes to kowtow to her every wish she would have ordered them to stop, surely. She seemed to have spent 6 months on a ship of semi-pagan darkeyed sailors she'd never met before and got along fine with them - they seemed to like her.

On the other hand, she didn't deal with the book merchant very nicely - though she was frustrated with his tone and her meeting with Jasnah so shouldn't consider this to be her default behaviour. Also notice that she regrets her attitude immediately.

Shallan is certainly not "enlightened" though. But I think she's better than you suggest.

If there's one guy at the Shattered Plains who would react badly to being treated like a generic servant by a snooty lighteyes it would be Kaladin - despite Dalinar, I'm pretty sure he still has his general disdain for lighteyes. They're pretty much guaranteed to meet: will Shallan help Kaladin get out his prejudices or entrench them? I suspect sparks may fly either way

[Morsk]

Huh, my "tropes that get in the way of female friendships in fiction" post got down-repped. Did I offend someone?

I miss-clicked it, and I can't find a way to undo it. I was sort of hoping no one would notice. :\ Sorry about that. I'll just go upvote something else...

[kari-no-sugata]

I'll just pop in here to add some facts. The name of the second woman is Tarah. She did not die in an escape attempt, Kaladin met her in Amaram's army after the death of Tien. He was in a period of obsession over learning to master the spear, so he wouldn't ever fail to protect someone again. She managed to coax him back to some level of normalcy. Kaladin says that his failure with her was "different" from all his others, leading to a possible romantic failure rather then death on her part. Hope this doesn't sound condescending at all, the only reason I know anything is because I literally just read this part like two days ago.

Thanks.

Some searching helped me narrow things down. There is a reference to Tarah on p874 and p880.

Maybe the slave I was thinking of was Nalma (p770) though there seems to be no indication of that person's gender.

[Aethling]

Sailors have always been special cases as they tend to go all over and crews can be made up of different nationalities, especially in fantasy. I can just imagine them trussing her up if she tried to boss them around though, and she probably knew that.

I do not think she is a bad character. She is just young, inexperienced, and used to getting her way due to being spoiled. Kaladin is approximately her age group, at least it appeared that way to me, and he has been hardened by years of war. One she gains experience, she will probably mellow out and become a favorite character, unless Sanderson takes her down the same road that Egwene went down in that she became MORE obnoxious and entitled the more she experienced.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Aethling