Dalinar's climax in book 5 - Pious and Guiding, Just and Confident, and the letters

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

I've got a theory on Dalinar's climax in the climax of the fifth book, the book which originally would have been the Bondsmith book, but which is now the Skybreaker book. A book which could have themes of pious and guiding, and of justice and confidence. A book which will involve the authors of the Oathbringer letters ...

 

This theory will make a lot more sense if you've read the Cosmere, and if you know who wrote the letters in Oathbringer, but you don't need to know that. I've posted this theory in part elsewhere, usually as part of other topics, especially those covering other Cosmere stories and what I think will happen throughout the entire Cosmere main books - mainly here, and be aware, it has Cosmere spoilers - but I will state this particular part here, as it ties directly to the climax of Stormlight's first half, and to Dalinar's role, the role of a Bondsmith, the role of the order associated with divinity. And a book about the traits of a Bondsmith, and a Skybreaker. This is a single point from that post expanded into a more full explanation.

 

There are three beings on Roshar, or rather, were three beings, with one splintered, which the population worship. The letters were written by ... peers, shall we say, of them. Peers who can reach out from where they are and affect Roshar. Peers alluded to in role and relationship with Honour, Cultivation, and Odium. Without getting into spoilers for other series, focusing only on the nature of Bondsmiths, I think Dalinar - a Bondsmith, associated with Honours power but also with the beings Honour is a peer with - will make an appeal to them to help, that Odium is breaking the rules established, and they are bound to stop him, or to help the Knights. And so ten peers to Cultivation and Odium will reach out across space - as Oathbringer pointed out there is life on other planets - and either kill or weaken Odium, enough that Dalinar and the other main characters can become the equivalent of Heralds, maybe even using the Herald's Honourblades, and contain not the Fused, but Odium himself, or whoever takes up Odium if Odium is killed by the others. So the law will be achieved, with confidence, by a pious man asking for help and guiding the attack of others against an enemy who is breaking the rules.

... Also, in the years while they fight and contain the enemy, either Rayse or whomever takes him up (*cough cough* Moash), Roshar will invent space ships to explore their local region, as far as the gas giants, with book ten involving them exploring further, but that is for another topic.

 

Also, while we are on the topic, I think that Dalinar will survive until the end of the series, and together with ten other characters take up a combination of Honour and either all or parts of either Cultivation, Odium, or both, but I've already discussed this before.

[+Invocation]

19 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

And so ten peers to Cultivation and Odium will reach out across space - as Oathbringer pointed out there is life on other planets - and either kill or weaken Odium

I don't think they'd do that. The ones that could, won't, and ones that would don't have the experience needed to do so, in addition to the fact that any who do attempt what you say would have to focus on Roshar, exposing themselves to a strike from the very being they are attempting to damage, saying nothing of the oath these peers took upon gaining their power (which some have already broken, and at least one is not bound to it). It sounds simple in theory, but the peers wouldn't probably work well together anyway, not enough to not get nabbed by Odium and, in the process, mess up Roshar immensely. 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

13 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I don't think they'd do that. The ones that could, won't, and ones that would don't have the experience needed to do so, in addition to the fact that any who do attempt what you say would have to focus on Roshar, exposing themselves to a strike from the very being they are attempting to damage, saying nothing of the oath these peers took upon gaining their power (which some have already broken, and at least one is not bound to it). It sounds simple in theory, but the peers wouldn't probably work well together anyway, not enough to not get nabbed by Odium and, in the process, mess up Roshar immensely. 

Fair points, but I mean they could reach out from the spiritual realm, attacking collectively - or interfering collectively - through a domain which reaches everywhere, and which (Cosmere spoilers:)

Spoiler

if a single shard can use to attack any other by itself, without its focus present, Odium would have done so. But they can't use their full strength away from where they are, they can only use some of their strength to affect distant areas.

 

Also, exhibit A:

Quote

It is a pity about Aona and Skai, but they were foolish--violating our pact from the very beginning.

[...]

If Rayse becomes an issue, he will be dealt with. 

And so will you.

 

Finally, the letters have consistently shown Wit trying to get help against Odium. As the link in the first page shows, their have been references in the books in the Stormlight Archives how Odium has been wounded before and won't risk provoking drawing out forces who could hurt him, how there is life on other planets and more beings like Honour and Odium, and the explicit references that there is an oath they all took which if they break means they are free to be attacked. Dalinar is about being pious and guiding, and the "others" will only act against someone who broke the rules, acting in justice and with confidence. Dalinar could guide them, and appeal to them.

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Ixthos
Clarified spoilered section detail, and expanded last section

[+Invocation]

15 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

there is an oath they all took which if they break means they are free to be attacked.

Odium hasn't actually broken that oath. He's not on Roshar. He's centered on Braize. Thusly, he is not free to attack, seeing as he has not harmed Cultivation, now that she is technically the only one on Roshar. He nabbed Honor first, and that was justified by the fact that he and Big C stayed together, even if they didn't see it that way. I believe this is partially the reason why Rayse hasn't been dealt with already.

15 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Fair points, but I mean they could reach out from the spiritual realm, attacking collectively - or interfering collectively - through a domain which reaches everywhere, and which (Cosmere spoilers:)

 

I'm pretty sure doing what you're suggesting requires the focal point to be near the target, otherwise Big Bad Broken Boy would haven't have needed to chase that one (You know who I'm talking about, the potentially power-hungry one) through the vacuum or to visit Sel and cause issues there to deal with Aona and Skai.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Invocation
forgot a sentence

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

Just now, Invocation said:

Odium hasn't actually broken that Oath. He's not on Roshar. He's centered on Braize. Thusly, he is not free to attack, seeing as he has not harmed Cultivation, now that she is technically the only one on Roshar. He nabbed Honor first, and that was justified by the fact that he and Big C stayed together, even if they didn't see it that way.

I'm pretty sure doing what you're suggesting requires the focal point to be near the target, otherwise Big Bad Broken Boy would haven't have needed to chase that one (You know who I'm talking about, the potentially power-hungry one) through the vacuum or to visit Sel and cause issues there to deal with Aona and Skai.

I know, but I'm suggesting either he will break a rule - on purpose or perhaps accidentally - and thus be open to attack, or Dalinar can appeal to them to follow the spirit of their agreement, rather than the ... letter ;-) :-P

I think we actually agree on that one - we don't know enough about them yet, but I have a theory about shards and moons which speculates that ones power is strongest where their feet are, so like lifting a heavy box if you place your feet under it you can leaver it up better, but affecting a more distant place is harder, like trying to lift a heavy box when it is a metre away. I think that what is happening is that it isn't feasible to attack someone distant by yourself, as they can fend off the attacks which are relatively weak, but if several people attack together, you are fighting both multiple assaults and their collective strength - from lots of weak attacks - is stronger than you are. Also, Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

There are possibly ten intact shards around who aren't Odium and aren't Cultivation - Endowment, Autonomy, Ruin, Preservation (technically still two separate shards, but if together maybe another shard has been split?), and six others which aren't named. Ten seems to be a rather significant number, so it also could match the idea of ten fighting together, like the ten orders.

 

[RShara she/her]

I think that doing so would bring the greater cosmere into far more focus than Brandon currently wants to happen in Stormlight, even in the back five. The grand finale isn't meant to happen until Mistborn Era 4, which will be hundreds of years after SA.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think that doing so would bring the greater cosmere into far more focus than Brandon currently wants to happen in Stormlight, even in the back five. The grand finale isn't meant to happen until Mistborn Era 4, which will be hundreds of years after SA.

I don't mean to keep referring to the Cosmere spoiler topic link in the first post, but I actually addressed that in that topic. Basically, Stormlight Archives is already a conflux book, with Awakening alluded to, Aethers, the metallic arts, life on other planets, the letters, and the hints about Wit. It is possibly to say that there is life on other planets (said in Oathbringer), forces which could hurt Odium (said in another book in the Stormlight Archives), and explicit letters and conversations by shards about them and their relationship to one another.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

I know, but I'm suggesting either he will break a rule - on purpose or perhaps accidentally - and thus be open to attack, or Dalinar can appeal to them to follow the spirit of their agreement, rather than the ... letter ;-) :-P

Ah, yes, my bad, I misunderstood.

1 minute ago, Ixthos said:

I think we actually agree on that one - we don't know enough about them yet, but I have a theory about shards and moons which speculates that ones power is strongest where their feet are, so like lifting a heavy box if you place your feet under it you can leaver it up better, but affecting a more distant place is harder, like trying to lift a heavy box when it is a metre away. I think that what is happening is that it isn't feasible to attack someone distant by yourself, as they can fend off the attacks which are relatively weak, but if several people attack together, you are fighting both multiple assaults and their collective strength - from lots of weak attacks - is stronger than you are. Also, Cosmere spoilers:

 

That is a very good comparison. If Odium weren't so experienced with dodging attacks and returning them, I'd say that would work.

Spoiler

Brandon has said Ruin and Preservation are now more likely to drop together than seperate, though you could force them to drop separately for now (that'll probably change as Ruin and Preservation's powers get more used to being together. To form 10, Honor might reform enough to constitute being a Shard again. 10 is his number, after all.

 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Ah, yes, my bad, I misunderstood.

That is a very good comparison. If Odium weren't so experienced with dodging attacks and returning them, I'd say that would work.

  Hide contents

Brandon has said Ruin and Preservation are now more likely to drop together than seperate, though you could force them to drop separately for now (that'll probably change as Ruin and Preservation's powers get more used to being together. To form 10, Honor might reform enough to constitute being a Shard again. 10 is his number, after all.

 

Guess we will have to see what happens :-) I think this is all being hinted at, but if Honour is reformed in the first five to lead the attack that could be cool :-) I think that is only going to happen in the last book or second last though :-P Either way, I'm interested in what Brandon will do

[+Invocation]

Just now, Ixthos said:

Guess we will have to see what happens :-) I think this is all being hinted at, but if Honour is reformed in the first five to lead the attack that could be cool :-) I think that is only going to happen in the last book or second last though :-P Either way, I'm interested in what Brandon will do

I agree wholeheartedly. The lives and the deaths will be exciting. The journey will be the best part of getting to the destination. I hope my strength lasts to see the end and weakness does not overcome me.

Also, let me just state for the record, we probably won't see what Brandon has planned coming.

[Karger he/him]

Even if all 10 other shards did want to fight Odium I am not sure that they would be much good at it.  Almost none of the shards have shown any capacity at teamwork so they would likely get in each others way.  Also what are the likes of Endowment, Harmony, and Cultivation going to do against Odium they are not exactly combat oriented shards the way Rayse is.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Karger I don't think you would interfere with each other in an attack, due to how I think the attack would work. I think that the shards compose the spiritual, so you can't dodge an attack, only block it. And if several attacked different parts together, it gets harder to block them all - it might even be that they can't harm him, but incapacitate him, prevent him from doing other things while Dalinar and the others work together to finish him or more fully lock him into a prison. Basically, they can all attack independently, and as they are each targeting a different part they wouldn't be stepping on one another's attacks, or even if they target the same spot, they would only add to the attack, so being ripped apart with more strength behind it. Also, Dalinar would be guiding them, or getting them to agree to cooperate.

 

With regards to their ability to harm, Vin held Preservation and attacked Ruin, Harmony contains Ruin, Cultivation can knock something down in order to build something up - pruning - and Endowment is to give something, even if it isn't something you wanted.

[Karger he/him]

Vin only held Preservation for a few minutes hours at most and her entire life was literally composed of moments that preservation designed to teach her that it was possible to protect by killing.  Her interpretation of the shard would actually probably be something more like protection.  Pruning grows back eventually and it tends to make the pruned individual stronger so count that out.  We have no idea what Endowment is up to or if they are up to anything.  Harmony from my understanding sees himself as a guiding force not a combative one so his direct combat application is highly limited.  These are not exactly members I want on my God Seal team 6.

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Karger For pruning I am also referring to removing thorns and parasites. Cultivation requires destroying things which would harm what you are growing. And as I said, Harmony contains Ruin, so it still could play a factor. Either way, shards can act outside their role if it serves their role, just as Ruin can build something if it can use it to break even more things.

[Karger he/him]

Ruin hates to do that and Harmony using him to much could unbalance the shard.  The point of Harmony is to maximize free will by giving little nudges not smashing evil people.  Cultivation was unable to kill Odium even with Honor and her side and I don't think having Harmony and Endowment will change that.  

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

16 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ruin hates to do that and Harmony using him to much could unbalance the shard.  The point of Harmony is to maximize free will by giving little nudges not smashing evil people.  Cultivation was unable to kill Odium even with Honor and her side and I don't think having Harmony and Endowment will change that.  

Not just those three, but all the remaining ones. And Ruin didn't hate to build, if he did then he wouldn't have worked with Preservation when there were many other things to ruin. Either way, the main point is that if they can be convinced Odium is violating the agreement, then, as the writer said "he will be dealt with".