I'd like to know the resons why people don't ship Kalladin and Shallen

[king of nowhere]

Kaladin and shallan just don't feel right to me. They respect each other, they bonded in the chasm, but I really don't see them going on in everyday life. It's a feeling more than anything else: sometimees I feel some people are right for each other, and sometimes I feel that they are not. They are completely different people, and unlike elend and vin, who somehow managed to complete each other and felt right to me, they just don't seem to "click". They fit well as good friends, but no more.

Another part of it is kaladin: he has been closing himself for a long time, chasing away people to avoid being hurt when he failed to protect them. even in bridge 4, he is their leader but he always held himself apart. it took him a whole book just to admit adolin is a good person. I don't see him entering a relationship anytime soon. That will likely change in later books, I hope kaladin won't stay grumpy forever.

As for the attraction he shows for shallan after the chasm, well... he's a man in his mid twenties, who had very little interactions with girls previously (they're not very abundant in the military, you know; and in his year as a slave, he probably never even talked to one, except to be ordered), and who suddenly is stuck together with a sweet and pretty girl (I mean, have you seen shallan's picture from the book interior? she's sooooo cute!), they save each other's life, and then he get to hold her for a few hours while they share some deep confidence. Of course he would feel some attraction afterwards. I would react the same, even if rationally i realized it could never work (well, I could actually fit with shallan, but that's not the point). After the first hormonal impact wears down, it would turn to some deep fondness and a strong protective instinct, and I would end up seeing her as a favourite cousin, which is quite close to what kaladin actually does (also, I have a soft spot for sweet girls, for broken-but-not-emo girls, and for frail-looking-but-thougher-than-they-appear girls, so shallan would likely get that reaction from me anyway, without needing any encouragement).

 

On the other hand, I felt shallan and adolin were right for each other from their first interactions. they actually click together.

It's also a common theme in sanderson's books; the girl that don't really fit the courtly stereotype, the boy that don't really fit with the court, they both try to be what they are supposed to be and fail, to discover that they fit better with each other just being what they are; it's happened for vin and elend, for siri and susebron, and for raoden and sarene. maybe brandon will change that, but he always chooses what feels right for the story over what would contradict expectations (if it fits the story and contradict expectations, bonus points)

[Shaggai]

Too cliche. Brandon does the unexpected. For a further analysis, see this link. The most likely ship is actually Kaladin/Axies.

[Kogiopsis she/her]

I'll admit, much of my pushback against Shalladin is that I think it's the most obvious ship - it's the one I would have predicted from the back cover of WoK, and I've read too many bad Young Adult books not to roll my eyes at that kind of predictability.

 

Part of it, though, is that in the interim between WoK and WoR I've spent so much time discussing characterization and shipping with other people that I'm really invested in other alternatives - which is entirely a subjectivity issue, but makes it frustrating to read the clear romantic setup in their WoR interactions.  I feel like both of them have more potential for a truly dynamic relationship with other people - something more than just 'finding someone who sympathizes with past trauma, healing, and becoming a power couple'.  (I'm totally onboard with Kaladin and Shallan having a strong platonic friendship, which could have all of that same emotional healing without the messiness or cliche qualities of a romantic plot.) 

[traceria she/her]

For my part, I was kind of hoping in WoK (you read that right) that Shallan and Adolin would meet at some point and hoped they'd get together even back then. I was tickled when the betrothal idea came up in WoR. That aside, whether those two make it or not, I feel like despite Kaladin and Shallan's bonding, I don't think they'd be good for one another in a romantic sense. I think Shallan is not the right fit for him more than he's not the right fit for her. That's my gut reaction. I'll see if I can figure out why it's telling me that! XD

 

(Edit for spelling)

Edited May 23, 2014 by traceria

[Firiel she/her]

Another reason I'm not a huge fan of Shalladin is something that has been touched on before-- they seem like they would make a good platonic couple.  I suspect that, with Kaladin's obvious attraction to Shallan, the idea of a romantic relationship will be explored, but ultimately, I hope they have a brother/sister relationship.  I am a huge fan of platonic, cross-sex friendships because I loathe the idea that men and women can't be friends, and so often it seems like TV/books/movies support that idea by having everyone sleep with everyone (especially in TV or book series that go on for years).  If they could realize without having to date and break up that they are a great support system for each other platonically, even though they are both attractive young people, I would be tickled pink.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Firiel

[Baine he/him]

 I loathe the idea that men and women can't be friends,

 

That's an actual mindset? Wow.

[Sylergist he/him]

I like the idea of the Adolin Shallan ship for the development opportunities it presents in the next books. Adolin has always been the Golden Child, excellent at dueling, and quickly growing to fill his fathers shoes when he finally steps down. Shallan's coming out as KR, along with Dolinar and Renarin, will force him to adapt to being the least "powerful" in the group. His relationship with Shallan WILL be tested, but I think it will be a good experience for his character. Whether it not it turns out well...that's a different matter. But for the time being I'm hoping this ship keeps sailing.

[Rybal]

A lot of Brandon's stuff has parallelism.

 

I see the triangle of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin repeating the history of Dalinar, Navani, and Gavilar. I think that, regardless of Kaladin's personal feelings towards Shallan, he will step aside for Adolin, who becomes more like a brother to him throughout the book.

 

One of my biggest issues with the Kaladin-Shallan pairing, though, revolves around Syl and Pattern. The cryptics and honorspren just don't get along. I can't see either of them ending up with someone (or their spren) that their associated spren doesn't fully approve of. It would be something akin to the feud between the Montagues and the Capulets.

 

Also, I'm kind of hoping that Brandon decides that Kaladin doesn't necessarily need a love interest in the first quintet. I'd be content with him finding someone between the two halves of the series off-page. For now, he really isn't likely to have a whole lot of time to pursue a relationship, what with his KR duties and all.

[Solomon]

I think everyone is being a little close minded here.
Shallan is obviously being used as the bridge to unite Kaladin and Adolin together.

Two attractive young men who at first loathe eachother, yet as time passes and events force them to unite, they start to bond. And once Adolin endures the heartbreak of Shallan who he was thought to wed, with Kaladin there to comfort him.

Adoldin is formed



Seriously now though. I am a Shallodin shipper, yet I do not mind what events may occur so long as it is enjoyable, amazing writing like within the last two installments. I think they all need some more development before we can truly figure out what would be the best for all three. I just hope my little bridge leader comes out swinging. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Adoldin is formed

You might want to workshop the name. Kadolin maybe?

[wordspren]

1. It's too cliche, too obvious. I'm not a fan of pairing the FMC and the MMC. 

2. I really love the idea of Adolin/Shallan. I can see that going fantastic places.

3. Love triangles... bleh. No. Not a fan. 

 

 

One of my biggest issues with the Kaladin-Shallan pairing, though, revolves around Syl and Pattern. The cryptics and honorspren just don't get along. I can't see either of them ending up with someone (or their spren) that their associated spren doesn't fully approve of. It would be something akin to the feud between the Montagues and the Capulets.

 

I also agree with this.

[Terisen he/him]

One of my biggest issues with the Kaladin-Shallan pairing, though, revolves around Syl and Pattern. The cryptics and honorspren just don't get along. I can't see either of them ending up with someone (or their spren) that their associated spren doesn't fully approve of. It would be something akin to the feud between the Montagues and the Capulets.

 

Maybe Syl and Pattern are like Romeo and Juliet.  They build the bridge between the two.

 

Gah, no.  I sincerely hope we don't go down that type of road.

[kaellok he/him]

 

Pretty sure that Shallan has her own issues she needs to work through, and survival of the apocalypse is something she shares with everyone else on Roshar now.  Just because Kaladin and Shallan are one way now, doesn't mean that they will not change (something i would expect in some of my favorite novels: character growth). 

 

While I agree that Shallan should definitely end up with someone that makes her happy, her own definition or realization of what makes her happy is likely going to change, and you have seen the beginnings of this in WoR as she gets more in touch with her inner feelings.  I would argue that what she needs in conjunction with happiness (a very broad term) is someone who can challenge her in a constructive way.  She doesn't strike me as someone who would accept anything less.  Also, Adolin could just as easily change into someone that Shallan does not like in a romantic sense.  Again, I like my characters dynamic.

 

To respond to your response to my post!

 

First, yes, Shallan has her own issues to work through, but they have not impacted her interpersonal relations in the same way that Kaladin's has.  Case in point, the relationship she and Adolin have.  Or her brothers.  Or Jasnah.  Or the deserters she rescued/redeemed.  For her, the journey from being single to in a caring, committed relationship is going to be much shorter and easier than Kaladin, because she broke in a different way than he did.  I see the character growth happening in both of them, absolutely, but I think it will be easier for Shallan, and so something she might work towards given the end of the world.  Kaladin, on the other hand, especially given his proclivities of wanting to protect everyone, may grow in different ways, that demand sacrifices he is willing to make--that end in him not having any romantic partnership.  Honestly, I'd lay even odds on whether one develops between him and anyone else by the end of Book 5.

 

Right now, Adolin makes her happy, and at the end of WoR we have her actively fighting to make sure that he knows this, and that she's going to keep fighting to make their relationship work.  I like dynamic characters, so long as dynamic doesn't mean "acting against core concepts of the character that we have seen."  Kaladin and Shallan may grow closer (I expect them to do so), and Shallan and Adolin may grow apart; but that's not a change that I want to see.  I can understand that many people want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together; I did, too, in WoK.  Then WoR happened, and Adolin and Shallan just work so well that I want it to continue. 

 

I agree with most of the rest of your comments, especially as you seem to be in the 'text-based ship' camp (which is a good place to be!) rather than the 'this is what I really wish would happen ship' camp (which is also a good place!). 

[Guest]

A lot of Brandon's stuff has parallelism.

 

I see the triangle of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin repeating the history of Dalinar, Navani, and Gavilar. I think that, regardless of Kaladin's personal feelings towards Shallan, he will step aside for Adolin, who becomes more like a brother to him throughout the book.

 

 

I do not like the idea of a parallel between Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan and Dalinar/Galivar/Navani. I understand that may be where Brandon goes, but it still makes me uncomfortable. Why should Kaladin (or Adolin for that matter) relive the exact same love triangle Dalinar was once stuck with? I do not think it would add to the story. I do not like the idea of Kaladin stepping down for Adolin. I would rather have Kaladin and Shallan realizing their story is not a love one and have them become friends. The three of them together (Kal, Shallan, Adolin) would then make the infernal trio composed of husband, wife and best friend to both.

 

And I also really want to see Adolin and Shallan have a child with a weird hair color sometimes in the second half of SA Especially since I believe Adolin would make an amazing dad and I really want to see him with kids

 

 

Right now, Adolin makes her happy, and at the end of WoR we have her actively fighting to make sure that he knows this, and that she's going to keep fighting to make their relationship work.  I like dynamic characters, so long as dynamic doesn't mean "acting against core concepts of the character that we have seen."  Kaladin and Shallan may grow closer (I expect them to do so), and Shallan and Adolin may grow apart; but that's not a change that I want to see.  I can understand that many people want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together; I did, too, in WoK.  Then WoR happened, and Adolin and Shallan just work so well that I want it to continue.

 

True enough. Shallan is the one who refuses to let her Radianhood get in the way of her relationship with Adolin. He is the one who is not so sure how to behave and she more or lest take things into her hands. In fact, Shallan has pretty much always been the one to initiate intimate contact between them. I wonder if this had to do with her being Veden? Don't we have a quote about Veden being less prude then Alethki? Also, I recalled Shallan mentioning how she was bothered by Adolin running eyes and how she decides to "cure" that by becoming irresistible......... Each time they are together, it seems Shallan jumps on him, Adolin blushes, Shallan makes a dirty joke, Adolin blushes some more, Shallan gets tired and kiss him, Adolin melts into her. So yeah, for now, I'd say she is still within the Adolin ship.

 

I absolutely love them together too    I love how Shallan is the one who seems to be driving the relationship and not Adolin has one would have expected. I love how Adolin is in awe of her and I love how Shallan does not dismissed Adolin by thinking he is stupid due to his lack of education (or interest in education). She gives him a chance and she plays teacher which, surprisingly, Adolin reacts quite well to.

[king of nowhere]

I think everyone is being a little close minded here.

Shallan is obviously being used as the bridge to unite Kaladin and Adolin together.

 

 

What? kaladin will carry her on his shoulders and slam her down between two plateaus?

[Kogiopsis she/her]

You might want to workshop the name. Kadolin maybe?

 

That's what the Tumblr fandom uses.  We're pretty good at portmanteau names over there, if I do say so myself.  (not that this stopped me from misspelling my own shipname for months - though I blame Feather for that, sort of, since I only portmanteau'd it in response to Shallarin...)

Actually, for reference - the most common portmanteau names we use are as follows:

Kaladin + Adolin = Kadolin

Kaladin + Renarin = Kalarin

Kaladin + Shallan = Shalladin

Shallan + Adolin = Shadolin

Shallan + Renarin = Shallarin

Shallan + Jasnah = Shasnah

Adolin + Renarin = Adorin (that one gets used both for the platonic and the less so, because it's so cute.)

Obviously what names you use for ships are up to you, but if you're looking for content across the internet chasm those are the terms most likely to yield results.

 

 

A lot of Brandon's stuff has parallelism.

 

I see the triangle of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin repeating the history of Dalinar, Navani, and Gavilar. I think that, regardless of Kaladin's personal feelings towards Shallan, he will step aside for Adolin, who becomes more like a brother to him throughout the book.

 

You know, I've seen this idea around these forums a lot and I've never quite understood the rationale behind it.  What parallelism Brandon's work does have is rarely that literal/repetitive, and in this case that love triangle would be quite the plot tumor, especially since Dalinar and Navani have both commented on how bad a situation the first triangle was for everyone involved.  Brandon doesn't really go for the kind of frustrating, fatalistic dramatic irony of characters getting themselves into a situation readers have already seen gone sour.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Kogiopsis

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

@DeployParachute: what I meant was that she is not looking for love. She just admitted to killing her father which is going to take a long time to even begin to heal, let alone heal. Therefore she doesn't want someone who can love her but someone who can provide immediate political and financial stability for herself and her family, admittedly she is on the way to doing that herself but I believe that Adolin would be more reliable and quicker than herself. Even if she doesn't commit to the relationship within the next few books, I believe that she will keep her options open and in doing so will see how good Adolin would be for her. He will be someone she can tell her secrets to and who will keep her confidence whilst also understanding the reasons behind her action. He basically did the same thing as her with Sadeas, killed to keep his family safe, I believe he will tell her about that first giving her a reason to divulge her own secrets causing a bond to form between them. Kaladin on the other hand provides no such stability, and he would also fail as an emotional support. He is still to closed minded about Lighteyes and he isn't very empathetic towards others. He is quite selfish in that regard. Every time something happens to him he instantly blames others, as though everyone is out to get him and him alone ( example anytime he talks in meetings and they look at him because a bodyguard should gaurd not talk, he thinks 'boo-hoo it's because I'm a DARKEYES isn't it.' Then when he gets imprisoned same thing, ' I didn't do anything wrong, it's because they are oppressing me!' )

So no, I don't believe she will develop a relationship for 'love' but for stability, which will develop into an emotional bond and later love. All with Adolin. If Adolin ever turns 'evil' I believe that Shallan will bring him back on track with a declaration of love/marriage.

Sorry if it's rambly.

Edited May 24, 2014 by CrystalBodies

[DeployParachute]

 

As for the attraction he shows for shallan after the chasm, well... he's a man in his mid twenties, who had very little interactions with girls previously (they're not very abundant in the military, you know; and in his year as a slave, he probably never even talked to one, except to be ordered), and who suddenly is stuck together with a sweet and pretty girl (I mean, have you seen shallan's picture from the book interior? she's sooooo cute!), they save each other's life, and then he get to hold her for a few hours while they share some deep confidence. Of course he would feel some attraction afterwards. I would react the same, even if rationally i realized it could never work (well, I could actually fit with shallan, but that's not the point). After the first hormonal impact wears down, it would turn to some deep fondness and a strong protective instinct, and I would end up seeing her as a favourite cousin, which is quite close to what kaladin actually does (also, I have a soft spot for sweet girls, for broken-but-not-emo girls, and for frail-looking-but-thougher-than-they-appear girls, so shallan would likely get that reaction from me anyway, without needing any encouragement).

 

On the other hand, I felt shallan and adolin were right for each other from their first interactions. they actually click together.

It's also a common theme in sanderson's books; the girl that don't really fit the courtly stereotype, the boy that don't really fit with the court, they both try to be what they are supposed to be and fail, to discover that they fit better with each other just being what they are; it's happened for vin and elend, for siri and susebron, and for raoden and sarene. maybe brandon will change that, but he always chooses what feels right for the story over what would contradict expectations (if it fits the story and contradict expectations, bonus points)

 

Hmm, interesting thoughts on Kaladin and his lack of exposure to women during his soldiering days as well as his hormone levels, but I would have to disagree on a few points.  

1. While women may not be abundant as fighters in a military, they certainly play a role, both as wives, scribes, sisters, and daughters.  Kaladin would certainly have had his fair share of interactions with such.  And let's not forget the probably biggest group of women that soldiers during wartime spend most of their time (and money) on: whores.  They are a staple in war camps and campaigns, as Brandon mentions many times.  And though we don't know a whole lot about her, we do know that Kaladin had already had some level of physical intimacy with Tarah.

 

2. Kaladin, during the course of WoK and WoR never struck me as not being in control of his hormones.  In the warcamps especially, he has plenty of visual exposure to women, but doesn't seem to have any problems not letting his thoughts be derailed.  With regards to Shallan, in WoR, Kaladin actually finds her completely repulsive initially, as she represents everything he has nurtured within himself to hate.  I give you, some text for reference:

 

 

Words of Radiance, Ch 44 One Form of Justice, p504

"Not bad," Yake said, following Kaladin's gaze.

"Not bad at what?" Kaladin asked, trying to figure out what the woman was doing.

"Not bad looking, Captain," Yake said with a laugh. "Storms! Sometimes, it seems the only thing you think about is who has to be on duty next."

Nearby, Syl nodded emphatically.

"She's lighteyed," Kaladin said.

"So?" Yake said, slapping him on the shoulder, "A lighteyed lady can't be attractive?"

"No." It was simple as that.

 

Shallan certainly is not the first attractive woman to cross Kaladin's path, and he has already formed an opinion of her attractiveness that he carries with him down into the chasm scene.  It is only after, after, she states so clearly their shared feelings on pain and crushing sorrow (and smiling despite all of it) that he even begins to see her in a different light.  My point being is that Kaladin isn't attracted to Shallan in the chasm scene because he's suffering from a case of uncontrollable raging hormones, but because he has started to see qualities in her and her personality that he finds appealing and worthy of his attraction.  

 

Adolin, on the other hand, knows next to nothing about Shallan's inner self.  They have shared some kisses, some lighthearted conversation, and a poop joke.  Call me old fashioned, but I do not see this as indicative of a meaningful relationship where both parties have begun to understand each other.  In fact, Shallan snapping at Adolin over him wanting to protect and shelter her made me realize just how little he actually knows the real her.  Something that she could remedy by opening up to him, certainly, but she is holding herself back.  Why?  Why share with Kaladin, and not with Adolin?  (this is your chance for a rebuttle  )

 

I like the idea of the Adolin Shallan ship for the development opportunities it presents in the next books. Adolin has always been the Golden Child, excellent at dueling, and quickly growing to fill his fathers shoes when he finally steps down. Shallan's coming out as KR, along with Dolinar and Renarin, will force him to adapt to being the least "powerful" in the group. His relationship with Shallan WILL be tested, but I think it will be a good experience for his character. Whether it not it turns out well...that's a different matter. But for the time being I'm hoping this ship keeps sailing.

 

Oh this ship is sailing, and it will certainly shape their characters significantly over the next books.  I feel like Adolin has the most to gain from this ship (and it's ultimate sinking) in terms of his character development.  The prince is about to be tormented like he's never been tormented before.  Find that man a boom box with a Peter Gabriel 8-track so he can hold it over his head outside Shallan's window!

 

A lot of Brandon's stuff has parallelism.

 

I see the triangle of Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin repeating the history of Dalinar, Navani, and Gavilar. I think that, regardless of Kaladin's personal feelings towards Shallan, he will step aside for Adolin, who becomes more like a brother to him throughout the book.

 

I don't necessarily subscribe to the belief that Brandon will touch upon the parallelism between the potential current love entaglement and Dalinar, Navani, Gavilar, but if anything, I believe it wouldn't be parallel, it would be completely opposite (perpendicular maybe?).  Shallan choosing not what was "safe" like Navani did, but instead following her heart.  Adolin, as he currently is, is safe.  Shallan can predict her feelings towards him, manage them according to her expectations.  With Kaladin, she cannot, and it both scares and excites her.

 

To respond to your response to my post!

 

First, yes, Shallan has her own issues to work through, but they have not impacted her interpersonal relations in the same way that Kaladin's has.  Case in point, the relationship she and Adolin have.  Or her brothers.  Or Jasnah.  Or the deserters she rescued/redeemed.  For her, the journey from being single to in a caring, committed relationship is going to be much shorter and easier than Kaladin, because she broke in a different way than he did.  I see the character growth happening in both of them, absolutely, but I think it will be easier for Shallan, and so something she might work towards given the end of the world.  Kaladin, on the other hand, especially given his proclivities of wanting to protect everyone, may grow in different ways, that demand sacrifices he is willing to make--that end in him not having any romantic partnership.  Honestly, I'd lay even odds on whether one develops between him and anyone else by the end of Book 5.

 

Right now, Adolin makes her happy, and at the end of WoR we have her actively fighting to make sure that he knows this, and that she's going to keep fighting to make their relationship work.  I like dynamic characters, so long as dynamic doesn't mean "acting against core concepts of the character that we have seen."  Kaladin and Shallan may grow closer (I expect them to do so), and Shallan and Adolin may grow apart; but that's not a change that I want to see.  I can understand that many people want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together; I did, too, in WoK.  Then WoR happened, and Adolin and Shallan just work so well that I want it to continue. 

 

I agree with most of the rest of your comments, especially as you seem to be in the 'text-based ship' camp (which is a good place to be!) rather than the 'this is what I really wish would happen ship' camp (which is also a good place!). 

 

Hey, thanks for responding to my response.  Allow me to respond again in turn 

 

Ultimately, I don't think any relationship involving Kaladin will have much of a shelf life.  I am currently under the belief that Kaladin is Fleet (and not just in the sense of how he ran as far as he could to protect Elhokar, but still survived), but more in the sense that he will, ultimately, be dead by the end of the first 5 books.

 

You bring up a great point that Shallan seems very eager to continue fighting for her relationship with Adolin.  I, however, would ask why?  Why fight so hard for this relationship?  I certainly don't know why she does, and I doubt she does either.  She certainly has demonstrated trouble knowing her own heart at times.  She does find many qualities that she likes in Adolin ("He's kind, noble, and genuine"), and of course very attractive.  Certainly a good start for potential lovers, but will it grow into something more, something deeper?  It could, but I do not believe so.  Shallan's passions have always seem to lie in her pursuit of her scholarship and knowledge, and after WoK, her quest to help stop the voidbringers from returning.  Ensuring her betrothal to Adolin only seemed to me like a means to her being able to pursue those ends, a means that is no longer necessary by the end of WoR.  So again, why fight so hard for it?  Does she feel so committed to the idea of a betrothal to Adolin that she can't even contemplate choosing something different for herself (like being single even)?

 

Phew lots of questions, long post, and it is late.  I'll stop boring you with my ramblings for now...

Edited May 24, 2014 by DeployParachute

[DeployParachute]

@DeployParachute: what I meant was that she is not looking for love. She just admitted to killing her father which is going to take a long time to even begin to heal, let alone heal. Therefore she doesn't want someone who can love her but someone who can provide immediate political and financial stability for herself and her family, admittedly she is on the way to doing that herself but I believe that Adolin would be more reliable and quicker than herself. Even if she doesn't commit to the relationship within the next few books, I believe that she will keep her options open and in doing so will see how good Adolin would be for her. He will be someone she can tell her secrets to and who will keep her confidence whilst also understanding the reasons behind her action. He basically did the same thing as her with Sadeas, killed to keep his family safe, I believe he will tell her about that first giving her a reason to divulge her own secrets causing a bond to form between them. Kaladin on the other hand provides no such stability, and he would also fail as an emotional support. He is still to closed minded about Lighteyes and he isn't very empathetic towards others. He is quite selfish in that regard. Every time something happens to him he instantly blames others, as though everyone is out to get him and him alone ( example anytime he talks in meetings and they look at him because a bodyguard should gaurd not talk, he thinks 'boo-hoo it's because I'm a DARKEYES isn't it.' Then when he gets imprisoned same thing, ' I didn't do anything wrong, it's because they are oppressing me!' )

So no, I don't believe she will develop a relationship for 'love' but for stability, which will develop into an emotional bond and later love. All with Adolin. If Adolin ever turns 'evil' I believe that Shallan will bring him back on track with a declaration of love/marriage.

Sorry if it's rambly.

 

Never apologize for "rambly".  "Rambly" is like a second language of mine.

 

So I don't know whether I would agree that Shallan's pain over having to kill her father automatically puts her in a mindset where she doesn't want to be loved. though your point that she's more focused on seeking political and financial security could answer my constant question as to why she is still so set on pursuing the betrothal with Adolin.  Regardless, you've given me some good perspective to reflect on.

 

Also, by the end of WoR, all three of the characters have killed someone in order to protect someone close to them, be it family or close companions, so I don't see how that particular argument can be used as a factor for differentiation between Kaladin's compatability vs Adolin's compatability.  Also, to your assertion that Adolin will be someone that she can tell her secrets to and be accepted, that may come to be the case, but it doesn't put him any further ahead of Kaladin in that regard.  We have in the text a scene where Shallan shares this particular dark secret with a certain someone, and he immediately accepts her decision and respects her for her strength in having to have made it.  Again, a wash when it comes to comparing the two.  And i think that Shallan found Kaladin to be very emotionally supportive during that scene, otherwise, why would she feel comfortable enough to reveal anything to him.  She had a need to reveal it to someone, and after hearing his story, sensed in him a person who could empathize with her.  If that isn't providing emotional support, I don't know what is.

 

And Kaladin not being empathetic to others?  His hatred for lighteyes aside, Kaladin is one of the most empathetic characters in the books.  His ability to read and connect with others is what makes him such a damnation good leader.  His compassion for them and the deep seated feelings of pain and loss when he fails them is all part of a character that very much cares for people.  I honestly don't see how you have concluded Kaladin to be this selfish un-empathetic person, but everyone reads things differently I suppose.

 

I will certainly grant you that Kaladin's...moodiness...during WoR is annoying and frustrating at times.  You know, I know, we all know that not all lighteyes are bad.  I mean, we have the privilege of being inside the heads of all our other favorite lighteye characters.  Kaladin has no such privilege, and can only base his opinions on his past experiences, which have been pretty horrific for one so young.  I may have found parts of his inner monologue concerning lighteyes to be whiny at times, but I feel like I understood why he felt that way.  His major story arc in WoR was about moving past his prejudices to the point where he could recognize the Third Ideal for what it was.  He demonstrated growth in this area, and it looks promising that he is ready to move past it.  

 

I dunno, now I'm feeling a bit rambly, so I'll end it there.  Good discussion though.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

@DeployParachute: Perhaps I have been harsh with him but I still stand by what i say. Even with the chasm scene I don't think that he will fully understand her reasoning behind it, his Oaths pretty much prohibit that sort of behaviour, and I may be putting too much of my own experience into the book but it has been my experience that people who find it difficult to understand the motives of others, ( this is displayed by Kaladin in numerous scenes in both books with the battle scenes where he questions the purpose of the bridge men even though i got their purpose as soon as i read about them ( canon fodder not saying I am smarter just more able to see someone else's side ), and pretty much every scene with him and a lighteyes.) They are only really able to judge others by their own personally morality code, that they hold at that point in there life, and his new morality code, the third oath of the wind runners is “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” with this information I don't think he will be able to condone her actions whereas Adolin will. so I can't see Shallan being comforted by Kaladin, instead I see her opening up to him, he will then naturally recoil at the brutality she displayed ( also IIRC he has never killed anyone in cold blood like that, war doesn't count because battlefields are different to houses ), she will see this as a rejection, which it is even if he got over it, she will then go to Adolin, hopefully he has told her what he did, they both have a bit of a cry become each others emotional support, not a love interest, which will then, as they grow, change into romantic feelings. 

[Guest]

Why?  Why share with Kaladin, and not with Adolin?  (this is your chance for a rebuttle  )

 

Phew lots of questions, long post, and it is late.  I'll stop boring you with my ramblings for now...

 

Because, in the chasm, she had nothing to lose by sharing with Kaladin and she has everything to lose by sharing with Adolin. Adolin is a prince, how will he react to her trouble past? Her station already is problematic as she is from a minor impoverish house, why add the murder of her parents to the lot? She must be terrified about Adolin finding out!

 

She does not share with Kaladin because it is Kaladin and she does remain secretive with Adolin because it is Adolin, she does it because in one case she was in a life or death situation and her NOT telling had terrible consequences....

 

I would also add she did not have a decent chance to share with Adolin just yet. She may get it in the next book as Adolin goes down and start having issues of his own.

[Guest]

 They are only really able to judge others by their own personally morality code, that they hold at that point in there life, and his new morality code, the third oath of the wind runners is “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” with this information I don't think he will be able to condone her actions whereas Adolin will.

 

Why wouldn't Adolin understand? Why would he condone her actions? He just killed Sadeas out of anger! Adolin has always been very good at reading and understanding people, much unlike Kaladin who needs to be pushed by Syl in order to just see some good into a lighteye.

 

I think you misjudge Adolin here. Shallan's revelations may come as a shock to him, but I do believe he can move past that. He loves her and he knows she is a good person deep down. Besides, Adolin will feel bad enough for what he did, I doubt he will find the strenght to judge her.

[kari-no-sugata]

She does not share with Kaladin because it is Kaladin and she does remain secretive with Adolin because it is Adolin, she does it because in one case she was in a life or death situation and her NOT telling had terrible consequences....

Eh, what consequences? I don't see anything forcing her to go into the detail she did.

[DeployParachute]

@DeployParachute: Perhaps I have been harsh with him but I still stand by what i say. Even with the chasm scene I don't think that he will fully understand her reasoning behind it, his Oaths pretty much prohibit that sort of behaviour, and I may be putting too much of my own experience into the book but it has been my experience that people who find it difficult to understand the motives of others, ( this is displayed by Kaladin in numerous scenes in both books with the battle scenes where he questions the purpose of the bridge men even though i got their purpose as soon as i read about them ( canon fodder not saying I am smarter just more able to see someone else's side ), and pretty much every scene with him and a lighteyes.) They are only really able to judge others by their own personally morality code, that they hold at that point in there life, and his new morality code, the third oath of the wind runners is “I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right.” with this information I don't think he will be able to condone her actions whereas Adolin will. so I can't see Shallan being comforted by Kaladin, instead I see her opening up to him, he will then naturally recoil at the brutality she displayed ( also IIRC he has never killed anyone in cold blood like that, war doesn't count because battlefields are different to houses ), she will see this as a rejection, which it is even if he got over it, she will then go to Adolin, hopefully he has told her what he did, they both have a bit of a cry become each others emotional support, not a love interest, which will then, as they grow, change into romantic feelings. 

 

Ok, I don't know really where to begin...so I guess I'll start with Kaladin not catching on to the purpose of the bridgemen.  Again, we as the reader have the benefit of knowing the big picture as painted for us by Brandon.  Heck, while bridge 4 is practicing the side carry, we have the whole Gaz/Lamaril scene in which they discuss the purpose of bridgemen: "Bridgement aren't supposed to survive.  They are bait."  I don't really blame Kaladin for not picking up on it sooner because unlike us, the reader, he is not equipped with all the facts, only his perspective guides him.

 

Again, I politely disagree about Kaladin finding it difficult to understand the motives of others.  The books are full of him correctly assessing the motives of others.  He was able to sense that Gaz was desperate for money without even knowing the details and offered a bribe.  He began understanding why his fellow bridge members were so despondent, because he took his own experience and feelings he felt at the chasm suicide scene and was able to put together a strategy for bringing them all back from the edge.  He understands Szeth's motives for doing the things he does, and throws it back in his face as complete garbage.  TLDR; I don't think you can use Kaladin not realizing the purpose of the bridge crews as the sole evidence for his not being able to understand others motivations when the text is full of instances where he is most certainly capable of doing so.

 

With regards to Kaladin being able to understand Shallan's actions in killing her father.  I feel a reoccurring theme in some posts arguing similar positions as yours seem to be comparing what Adolin would do upon hearing this information versus what Kaladin would do upon hearing it.  You state that Kaladin wouldn't be able to understand why Shallan or anyone would do something like that.  The problem with this argument is that we know exactly how Kaladin feels about it.  First, he is obviously the only person she has told outside her family, and second we are inside his head when she does it.  Let's go to the text:

 

 

Words of Radiance, ch 74  Striding the Storm, p 877 hardback

"And I strangled him as he lay on the floor, watching me, unable to move.  I killed my own father..."

He didn't prod her, though he wanted to know.  Needed to know.

...

What would he have done, if his father had been like the abusive, hateful man Shallan described? If his mother had died before his own eyes? What would he have done if, instead of living off Tien's light, he had been required to bring light to the family?

He listened with wonder.  Storms.  Why wasn't this woman broken, truly broken?  She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade, and a spear like that could still be as sharp a weapon as any.  He preferred one with a score or two on the blade, a worn handle...

...

Marks like those were signs of strength

...

She continued talking, speaking of the night-also during a storm-when she'd poisoned, then murdered her father.

Almighty above.  This woman was stronger than he'd ever been.

 

I'm sorry, but the text just does not support your argument that Kaladin wouldn't understand Shallan or her motivations, because we have a whole page inside his head where we can claim with 100% certainty that he does.  Now I know you have your hopes for Adolin and Shallan, and I respect that, and it could still go that way.  But when shaping your arguments, don't let that prejudice cause you to ignore the facts as they are..  Whether Kaladin's acceptance Shallan killing her father can lead to a romantic relationship between the two is still up for debate.  The fact that he has accepted her for it is not.

 

Because, in the chasm, she had nothing to lose by sharing with Kaladin and she has everything to lose by sharing with Adolin. Adolin is a prince, how will he react to her trouble past? Her station already is problematic as she is from a minor impoverish house, why add the murder of her parents to the lot? She must be terrified about Adolin finding out!

 

She does not share with Kaladin because it is Kaladin and she does remain secretive with Adolin because it is Adolin, she does it because in one case she was in a life or death situation and her NOT telling had terrible consequences....

 

I would also add she did not have a decent chance to share with Adolin just yet. She may get it in the next book as Adolin goes down and start having issues of his own.

 

Good points.  My counterargument would be that why tell Kaladin if she is so afraid of Adolin finding out?  She and Kaladin are as safe as they can be at this point, and Shallan has had this powerful confidence that she is going to survive this chasm, and even has to force a bit of that optimism into him in order to get him off the back of the chasmfiend and climbing the cliffside to the alcove.  And Kaladin is the captain of Dalinar's personal guard!  Wouldn't she consider the possibility that he may take it very seriously that there is someone who murdered her own father close to the family he is sworn to protect?  Telling him could potentially be as risky as telling Adolin himself.  How can she be sure that Kaladin won't take it to the Kholins as is his duty.  We know he wouldn't but she doesn't.

 

Also not sure what the "terrible consequences" would have been had she not shared, could you elaborate?  I'll certainly agree that the measure of danger accelerated Kaladin and Shallan to the point that they could share such things, a point at which Adolin and Shallan may take a longer time to reach, but I disagree that Shallan would have shared with just anybody.  I mean, put some other male character in Kaladin's place, would she still have felt comfortable enough to share?  Would she still share if it had been say...Gaz she was clutching to?  Renarin?  Dalinar?  Lopen? (ok, maybe Lopen).  During this scene, she has no intention initially of sharing, but it is Kaladin himself, and his story she insisted on hearing from him that drew her own demons out into the open.  

 

Why wouldn't Adolin understand? Why would he condone her actions? He just killed Sadeas out of anger! Adolin has always been very good at reading and understanding people, much unlike Kaladin who needs to be pushed by Syl in order to just see some good into a lighteye.

 

I think you misjudge Adolin here. Shallan's revelations may come as a shock to him, but I do believe he can move past that. He loves her and he knows she is a good person deep down. Besides, Adolin will feel bad enough for what he did, I doubt he will find the strenght to judge her.

 

Maxal, just want to point out that I think you may have misinterpreted CrystalBodies post, as you both are effectively arguing the same points and on the same side.  

Edited May 24, 2014 by DeployParachute

[Guest]

Maxal, just want to point out that I think you may have misinterpreted CrystalBodies post, as you both are effectively arguing the same points and on the same side.  

 

You may be right. I was disturbed when I wrote my last messages. Kids

 

Edit: Woh.... I wrote a really long message and I just noticed I must have accidentally deleted it. damnation.

Edited May 24, 2014 by maxal