Why I think Sadeas death was right.

[Calderis he/him]

27 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So I guess you've changed your mind to your original post then.

No, I said it was an option, and if it were Jasnah who had been present and acted it almost certainly would have been that route. 

That's not what happened. 

27 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Adolin had a dagger. Sadeas didn't have one. This wasn't a battle of equal power.

Sadeas had two good arms and wasn't exhausted from a battle followed by a quick move. Adolin didn't and was. 

27 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes of course, but we are talking about establishing a kingdom here, we need to establish what it means nationally, otherwise it's only chaos

Adolin being a Kholin in this situation is completely beside the point. And if we're speaking nationally, the Alethi way is well established, and that's might makes right. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Calderis

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

No, I said it was an option

Then I find your original post misleading to what your actual position is. But you know what, it doesn't matter. You are allowed to change your mind.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Sadeas had two good arms and wasn't exhausted from a battle followed by a quick move. Adolin didn't and was. 

I still think an unarmed man is at a disadvantage to a tired one with a dagger. That's why if Sadeas killed Adolin while unarmed it would've actually been in self-defense.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Adolin being a Kholin in this situation is completely beside the point.

No, that's what nepotism is.

 

I'm just saying my opinion on this, you don't have to agree.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Adolin advantage:

Young and Strong

Had dagger

Surprise

Disadvantage

Injured

Bloodied and exausted from battle

Fighting with anger versus experienced opponent

Time

 

Sadeas Advantage:

Fresh

Uninjured

Spoiling for a fight (else why provoke a known hothead with no backup available)

Experienced fighter

The Thrill

Disavantage

Shardblade unsummond

Misjudged ferocity of reaction

 

You can add up the sums however you wish, but in my opinion Adolin was fighting no babe in the woods.  This guy has been on campaign for more than 40 years and knows a thing or 2 about fighting under control else he'd have been dead on some long ago battlefield. And lets face it, the way Adolin attacked was stupid as hell.  He never even thought to summon Maya even though his opponent was a Shardbearer too.  He surprised Sadeas, but Sadeas should have guessed Adolin's reaction and been on his way to summoning Oathbringer just in case.  Sadeas should have been too smart to be in that situation in the first place, or able to take advantage of a stronger but injured opponent, an opponent made stupid by anger.  Sadeas was weaponless.  Defenseless? Not so much.

[galendo]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

This part I don't understand. During OB, no one knew that Adolin was the killer. That is no longer true. If personal external consequences are going to occur, they couldn't have happened until after the end. 

Either Adolin would have to have been found out earlier, or those consequences could not occur until a time we've yet to see. 

Why would consequences coming now that his actions are not totally secret be out of place? 

A couple reasons.  One has to do with narrative flow and plausible consequences; the other has to do with character motivations.

First, as of the end of WoR, what was the most likely way for Adolin to suffer consequences for Sadeas' death?  Either Dalinar would discover it and his sense of honor would require some punishment; or Team Ialai would discover it while investigating her husbands' murder and use the knowledge against Team Dalinar; or Adolin would slip up and incriminate himself, with consequences following.

None of these things happened.

Not only did they not happened, it is no longer plausible that they might happen.  Adolin has confessed to Dalinar, IIRC, and Dalinar's sense of honor was flexible enough to allow his son a get-out-of-murder-free card.  Team Ialai didn't discover evidence linking Adolin to Sadeas in the days when that evidence was fresh and useful, so it's hard to imagine what they could only discover months afterward and nearly as difficult to see how they could effectively use that knowledge against Team Dalinar, since Sadeas' forces publicly turned traitor and were annihilated in the battle for Thaylen City.  If Team Ialai even exists anymore, they can't have much reach or reputation left to them.  As for Adolin slipping up, well, he didn't all of OB, so it's hard to imagine him getting sufficiently lax and careless for the truth to come out when the investigation is no longer even front and center.

So that's my first objection.  My second objection is this: as of the end of OB, who actually knows that Adolin killed Sadeas?  From what I remember, only Adolin, Shallan, and Dalinar.  No one not on Team Dalinar, at least.  None of these characters has any motivation, as of the end of OB, to go public with the information.  So why would they suddenly decide to do so?  It just doesn't make sense.  It's possible that one of them slips up (not really plausible, I think, but theoretically possible), but having it happen during the timeskip would be unsatisfying, and having it happen after the timeskip, at a time and place for it to still be relevant, would feel contrived.

Since consequences for Adolin's murder can't happen in both a believable and satisfying fashion, I think it better for them not to happen at all.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

59 minutes ago, galendo said:

A couple reasons.  One has to do with narrative flow and plausible consequences; the other has to do with character motivations.

First, as of the end of WoR, what was the most likely way for Adolin to suffer consequences for Sadeas' death?  Either Dalinar would discover it and his sense of honor would require some punishment; or Team Ialai would discover it while investigating her husbands' murder and use the knowledge against Team Dalinar; or Adolin would slip up and incriminate himself, with consequences following.

None of these things happened.

Not only did they not happened, it is no longer plausible that they might happen.  Adolin has confessed to Dalinar, IIRC, and Dalinar's sense of honor was flexible enough to allow his son a get-out-of-murder-free card.  Team Ialai didn't discover evidence linking Adolin to Sadeas in the days when that evidence was fresh and useful, so it's hard to imagine what they could only discover months afterward and nearly as difficult to see how they could effectively use that knowledge against Team Dalinar, since Sadeas' forces publicly turned traitor and were annihilated in the battle for Thaylen City.  If Team Ialai even exists anymore, they can't have much reach or reputation left to them.  As for Adolin slipping up, well, he didn't all of OB, so it's hard to imagine him getting sufficiently lax and careless for the truth to come out when the investigation is no longer even front and center.

So that's my first objection.  My second objection is this: as of the end of OB, who actually knows that Adolin killed Sadeas?  From what I remember, only Adolin, Shallan, and Dalinar.  No one not on Team Dalinar, at least.  None of these characters has any motivation, as of the end of OB, to go public with the information.  So why would they suddenly decide to do so?  It just doesn't make sense.  It's possible that one of them slips up (not really plausible, I think, but theoretically possible), but having it happen during the timeskip would be unsatisfying, and having it happen after the timeskip, at a time and place for it to still be relevant, would feel contrived.

Since consequences for Adolin's murder can't happen in both a believable and satisfying fashion, I think it better for them not to happen at all.

I believe that this is a case where the author knows what's important to the narrative and what isn't. Most readers saw the Sadeas slaying as a springboard to Adolin revelations, Team Honor conflicts, an entire host of possibilities that we got none of in OB. I've seen a bunch of people in the fandom that admitted to the missed opportunity effecting their enjoyment of the series in a negative way. Even those who were fine with it like myself still felt that disorientation of waiting for the other shoe to drop only it never does.

Brandon is a professional, best selling author. He teaches classes in this crem. If we as readers saw it, it's nearly garanteed that he did. And if he didn't his beta readers surely clued him in on it. So why wouldn't he addreess the issue in OB like we all expected him to? The only thing I could think of is that there is something more important he needs to say about this event or he's going to address it later in a way that's more satisfying than what we have so far. Basically he's setting the payoff up for later than we expected. Being a Robert Jordan superfan and then finishing off the iconic Wheel of Time series, he knows all about pushing payoffs down the line and resolving them in interesting ways. He has the experience to pull it off.

Will we still feel the way we do about the Sadeas incident by the end of 1st half SA, once we have more info? Can you trust Brandon to bring a satisfying resolution to this arc? After making me care about Elkohar, I believe Brandon can do just about anything. Your mileage may vary.

[The Feruchemist]

On 2/16/2019 at 2:04 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Everything Calderis said.

Also, I expect we will see some kind of trial for Adolin in book four. I'm thinking something along the lines of Perin Goldeneyes, where his own sense of honor makes him demand a trial while everyone around him tries to get him to just take an easy way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Renarin become the heir.

I can’t see Adolin demanding a trial. He’s not a man of honor. I can only see him doing this to redeem himself in Dalinar’s eyes. I think he will only try to move past it.

[Jace21 he/him]

6 hours ago, The Feruchemist said:

I can’t see Adolin demanding a trial. He’s not a man of honor. 

Agree with the first, couldn't disagree more with the last.

How are you defining "man of honor"? 

[Pathfinder]

Not ringing in on whether Sadeas's death was right or wrong, just adding a little more legal context regarding the Alethi system. I believe we like to think that there is a legal and enforceable system in Alethkar by how Dalinar and the people close to him act, but I believe the actual practice is quite different (and I believe there are in book references and WoB that support this. If requested I will be happy to update my post to provide them though at this moment I do not have the chance). With the Alethi, might makes right. Brandon has said you are only a Highprince if you have enough people backing you and agreeing that you are a Highprince. Basically no one disagrees that you are Highprince because you have the forces to back up your claim and crush any opposing. Dalinar could have, and was well within his rights in the Alethi legal system to have killed Sadeas on multiple occasions "honorably" in the Alethi view of the word. One of the earliest examples is when Sadeas insults Dalinar's children (Adolin and Renarin). Adolin begins to summon his blade, but Dalinar stops him. Dalinar then proceeds to elaborate to Sadeas that surely he would not insult his son for that would impinge on Dalinar's honor and call for him to duel Sadeas right then and there. The only reason that did not happen was two fold, 1. Sadeas thought he would lose to the Blackthorn and so took it back and 2. Dalinar knew if he attacked and killed Sadeas, it would turn the two most powerful houses in the kingdom who were united in service of the king against each other, breaking the kingdom apart. But just because Dalinar did not want to see the kingdom fall apart to infighting does not mean doing so would not have been seen as perfectly normal and acceptable by the Alethi. The same exact situation presented itself again after the Tower. Dalinar could have openly stated what Sadeas actually did, and call for his head and attack. Perfectly acceptable and "legal" to the Alethi. Just Dalinar 1. again did not want the kingdom to fall apart and 2. was outnumbered and knew his forces would lose if it came to a fight right then and there. Finally Brandon's own commentary on the aftermath of the kill is that when you are at a certain level, and your dad decides what is legal, you can get away with certain things. Now could Dalinar have a problem with it because of his personal morals and ethics? Could any of the other characters? Sure, that can totally be up to debate. But "legally" as per the Alethi, as long as Ialai cannot put together a strong enough force to stand up against them, then Sadeas's death is "just how things go". Dalinar could say it went down however he wished, and that would be the accepted story. They could even claim Sadeas started it, and Adolin just put him down, and with no one with the power to dispute it, it would become "accepted" as truth just like The Rift and The Tower. Now whether this will change under Queen Jasnah in an effort to reform the Alethi legal system, I cannot say, but as it stands, to me, in light of the Alethi, this was all par for the course. 

 

edit: to add, The Codes are not part of the Alethi legal system. They are ideals to hold to during wartime that although once upon a time might have been enforced, they have no longer. Otherwise all the Highprinces except Dalinar would have been brought up on numerous charges amongst them being

1. being drunk during war time

2. dueling officers during wartime

3. not wearing a uniform

4. not doing any action required of the lower rank (Sadeas not running bridges for instance)

5. abandoning allies (Sadeas at the tower). 

So just because Dalinar holds to the codes, does not mean they apply to the Alethi legal system overall, and seems like they haven't applied for centuries. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Pathfinder

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Finally Brandon's own commentary on the aftermath of the kill is that when you are at a certain level, and your dad decides what is legal, you can get away with certain things.

I agree that this proves, that Alethi society would turn a blind eye to how Adolin killed Sadeas. (Not necessarily Honor himself tho)

What I think wasn't obvious in my previous posts, is that me personally, raised in a modern society's values, would not accept it, and as we, the readership, belong in this reality, I don't think we are supposed to accept it that lightly either. Again, this is my personal opinion. Nobody has to agree with me.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I agree that this proves, that Alethi society would turn a blind eye to how Adolin killed Sadeas. (Not necessarily Honor himself tho)

What I think wasn't obvious in my previous posts, is that me personally, raised in a modern society's values, would not accept it, and as we, the readership, belong in this reality, I don't think we are supposed to accept it that lightly either. Again, this is my personal opinion. Nobody has to agree with me.

No worries. Totally fine with you feeling however you wish regarding Sadeas and his death. Like I said in my post, just adding information regarding the legality alone. Was not posting it directing towards anyone. Totally understand and respect your view. I am not personally ringing in on either side. 

[galendo]

23 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I believe that this is a case where the author knows what's important to the narrative and what isn't. Most readers saw the Sadeas slaying as a springboard to Adolin revelations, Team Honor conflicts, an entire host of possibilities that we got none of in OB. I've seen a bunch of people in the fandom that admitted to the missed opportunity effecting their enjoyment of the series in a negative way. Even those who were fine with it like myself still felt that disorientation of waiting for the other shoe to drop only it never does.

Brandon is a professional, best selling author. He teaches classes in this crem. If we as readers saw it, it's nearly garanteed that he did. And if he didn't his beta readers surely clued him in on it. So why wouldn't he addreess the issue in OB like we all expected him to? The only thing I could think of is that there is something more important he needs to say about this event or he's going to address it later in a way that's more satisfying than what we have so far. Basically he's setting the payoff up for later than we expected. Being a Robert Jordan superfan and then finishing off the iconic Wheel of Time series, he knows all about pushing payoffs down the line and resolving them in interesting ways. He has the experience to pull it off.

Will we still feel the way we do about the Sadeas incident by the end of 1st half SA, once we have more info? Can you trust Brandon to bring a satisfying resolution to this arc? After making me care about Elkohar, I believe Brandon can do just about anything. Your mileage may vary.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say -- I think Brandon is a great author, probably in contention for the greatest fantasy writer today -- but I find this sort of argument displeasing for two reasons.  First, because it entirely kills debate.  One person says something like, "I don't think X should happen because of A, B, and C" and another person comes back and says "I'm sure the author knows better than you."  Which is probably true; but it doesn't really address issues A, B, or C.

The second reason I find this sort of argument unsatisfying is because I can think of several places where it just didn't hold.  I can think of several revelations and plot threads that I think were handled...suboptimally, shall we say, in Mistborn (first trilogy), in The Reckoners, and especially in Warbreaker, and even in Stormlight.  Since this is the Stormlight sub-forum, I'll mention only my primary Stormlight instance where I feel the explanation falls short: that of the Recreance.  I maintained before OB that Brandon had painted himself into a corner and that a good resolution would be impossible; and while he did a much better job of it than I had expected, I still find the explanation to be unbelievable as given.  So however good an author Brandon is, I definitely don't think that he's beyond mistake or critique.  Though I suppose your mileage may also vary.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Not ringing in on whether Sadeas's death was right or wrong, just adding a little more legal context regarding the Alethi system. I believe we like to think that there is a legal and enforceable system in Alethkar by how Dalinar and the people close to him act, but I believe the actual practice is quite different (and I believe there are in book references and WoB that support this. If requested I will be happy to update my post to provide them though at this moment I do not have the chance). With the Alethi, might makes right. Brandon has said you are only a Highprince if you have enough people backing you and agreeing that you are a Highprince. Basically no one disagrees that you are Highprince because you have the forces to back up your claim and crush any opposing. Dalinar could have, and was well within his rights in the Alethi legal system to have killed Sadeas on multiple occasions "honorably" in the Alethi view of the word. One of the earliest examples is when Sadeas insults Dalinar's children (Adolin and Renarin). Adolin begins to summon his blade, but Dalinar stops him. Dalinar then proceeds to elaborate to Sadeas that surely he would not insult his son for that would impinge on Dalinar's honor and call for him to duel Sadeas right then and there. The only reason that did not happen was two fold, 1. Sadeas thought he would lose to the Blackthorn and so took it back and 2. Dalinar knew if he attacked and killed Sadeas, it would turn the two most powerful houses in the kingdom who were united in service of the king against each other, breaking the kingdom apart. But just because Dalinar did not want to see the kingdom fall apart to infighting does not mean doing so would not have been seen as perfectly normal and acceptable by the Alethi. The same exact situation presented itself again after the Tower. Dalinar could have openly stated what Sadeas actually did, and call for his head and attack. Perfectly acceptable and "legal" to the Alethi. Just Dalinar 1. again did not want the kingdom to fall apart and 2. was outnumbered and knew his forces would lose if it came to a fight right then and there. Finally Brandon's own commentary on the aftermath of the kill is that when you are at a certain level, and your dad decides what is legal, you can get away with certain things. Now could Dalinar have a problem with it because of his personal morals and ethics? Could any of the other characters? Sure, that can totally be up to debate. But "legally" as per the Alethi, as long as Ialai cannot put together a strong enough force to stand up against them, then Sadeas's death is "just how things go". Dalinar could say it went down however he wished, and that would be the accepted story. They could even claim Sadeas started it, and Adolin just put him down, and with no one with the power to dispute it, it would become "accepted" as truth just like The Rift and The Tower. Now whether this will change under Queen Jasnah in an effort to reform the Alethi legal system, I cannot say, but as it stands, to me, in light of the Alethi, this was all par for the course.

You're partly right in that the Alethi system is such that "might makes right", but you're also neglecting the very real rights that Alethi citizens have.  You need look no farther than Lirin and Roshone to see examples of this.  Roshone has all the power -- he's a lighteyes, and the people of Hearthstone support him -- but he can't simply punish Lirin directly or steal back the spheres.  Lirin outright states that he would win an inquest, and Roshone doesn't call him on it.  Similarly, when Roshone is nominating volunteers for Aramam's army, he can't nominate Kaladin because it's against the law.  After he nominates Tien instead, Aramam asks him to reconsider; but Roshone cites the law as justification and the decision stands.

Or for another example, since you mentioned Sadeas: do note that Sadeas pays his bridgemen slaves a diamond chip a day.  Why?  Because it's the law that slaves have to be paid.  Sadeas has hundreds of slaves at least, and perhaps thousands, so it's not like this is chump change.  You say that highprinces can just ignore the law if they wish -- and to a certain extent this is true; just look at Elhokar and Roshone -- but there are laws, and the highprinces do have to follow them even if they're inconvenient.  There is a "legal and enforceable system in Alethkar".  Just because kings and highprinces are powerful enough to be able to circumvent it on occasion -- much like our own judicial system in real life -- does not mean that there are not real punishments for real crimes, assuming the evidence can be mustered.

So IMHO, you're right when you say that no justice will stick to Adolin for Sadeas' murder because there're no witnesses and little evidence; but you're wrong when you claim that there wouldn't have been dire consequences had Adolin summoned his Shardblade and slain Sadeas before a score of highranking witnesses in that scene where Sadeas insults him and Renarin.  The Alethi would not have taken that as "business as usual", they'd almost certainly have executed Adolin for it.  (There has never been a case in three books where one Alethi just straight-up kills another in public and gets away with it.  There isn't even an on-screen instance of it happening in a duel, though Adolin's challenge to Sadeas makes clear that, at least in certain and exceedingly formalized circumstances, such can happen.  But remember that it took an exceptional display of prowess and a royal boon to obtain.)  Alethi justice isn't always perfect, especially between persons of disparate class; but it is present, and cannot be completely neglected by anyone.  Not even kings and highprinces.

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, galendo said:

You're partly right in that the Alethi system is such that "might makes right", but you're also neglecting the very real rights that Alethi citizens have.  You need look no farther than Lirin and Roshone to see examples of this.  Roshone has all the power -- he's a lighteyes, and the people of Hearthstone support him -- but he can't simply punish Lirin directly or steal back the spheres.  Lirin outright states that he would win an inquest, and Roshone doesn't call him on it.  Similarly, when Roshone is nominating volunteers for Aramam's army, he can't nominate Kaladin because it's against the law.  After he nominates Tien instead, Aramam asks him to reconsider; but Roshone cites the law as justification and the decision stands.

Or for another example, since you mentioned Sadeas: do note that Sadeas pays his bridgemen slaves a diamond chip a day.  Why?  Because it's the law that slaves have to be paid.  Sadeas has hundreds of slaves at least, and perhaps thousands, so it's not like this is chump change.  You say that highprinces can just ignore the law if they wish -- and to a certain extent this is true; just look at Elhokar and Roshone -- but there are laws, and the highprinces do have to follow them even if they're inconvenient.  There is a "legal and enforceable system in Alethkar".  Just because kings and highprinces are powerful enough to be able to circumvent it on occasion -- much like our own judicial system in real life -- does not mean that there are not real punishments for real crimes, assuming the evidence can be mustered.

So IMHO, you're right when you say that no justice will stick to Adolin for Sadeas' murder because there're no witnesses and little evidence; but you're wrong when you claim that there wouldn't have been dire consequences had Adolin summoned his Shardblade and slain Sadeas before a score of highranking witnesses in that scene where Sadeas insults him and Renarin.  The Alethi would not have taken that as "business as usual", they'd almost certainly have executed Adolin for it.  (There has never been a case in three books where one Alethi just straight-up kills another in public and gets away with it.  There isn't even an on-screen instance of it happening in a duel, though Adolin's challenge to Sadeas makes clear that, at least in certain and exceedingly formalized circumstances, such can happen.  But remember that it took an exceptional display of prowess and a royal boon to obtain.)  Alethi justice isn't always perfect, especially between persons of disparate class; but it is present, and cannot be completely neglected by anyone.  Not even kings and highprinces.

So I will tailor my responses in paragraphs to sync up with yours. I am only replying to the portion you directed at me

Except Sadeas is not Roshone. As in Sadeas is not a lower light eyes. He is a highprince. And regardless it still validates the Alethi world view. Lirin has enough money and influence that he could challenge Roshone and back it up. Roshone has fallen from grace, and does not have as much clout as he would normally. We can use Roshone regarding how he was in Alethkar. There were silversmiths that got in the way. He arranged it using his influence to get them removed. They lacked the clout or resources to defend themselves or stand up, and so they rotted in jail. Roshone was only punished because of Dalinar, and even then the punishment was lenient because of Roshone's connections. Again, when you have the backing, when you have the clout, what you say goes. 

Actually unless you can provide a reference in the book, from what I recall the reason they paid the bridgemen what they did, was so they could spend it on whoring and drink to keep them complacent. Same reason for the structure of punishment. Keep the bridgemen beaten down, but not so much that they would completely give up. Convince them that at least running a bridge they might die. If you made living normally even worse, then the bridgemen would end up wanting to die. Even then some do anyway. Actually from what I have read, the legal system mainly applies to the lower half. There are constant border skirmishes between the highprince lands, with no penalty acted upon the highprinces for it. I believe it was Ruthgar (or some other highprince with an R name) that was planning of possibly returning to Kholinar to consolidate his power, which worried Dalinar that he would plot to take over because he was next in line after the Kholins. He was conflicted on whether to let him go back, in an effort to get everyone to return to Kholinar, but at the same time was worried about leaving him unwatched. My point is, there are accepted "laws" that everyone pretends to follow, but if they break, as long as they arrange it where they outmaneuvered their opponent, they "win". The grand tradition of the Alethi thrill of the contest. Frankly based on their legal system, if you had a problem with a highprince, and that highprince had the backing of 7 other highprinces, how are you going to lock him up? Literally, with what army?

To clarify, I was not speaking of justice. At no point did I say no justice will stick to Adolin. That is something you all can feel free to debate. My only reason for writing what I did was to provide some context to the legal state of the Alethi. You can feel however you wish about it, and Sadeas's death. Just that was not what my comment was regarding. I am not taking either side. I only stated on the laws. "Justice" regarding Adolin is an entirely different matter that I do not have an opinion on. Now as to how legally the Alethi would have responded had Adolin summoned his blade and killed Sadeas, my question would be at what point in the books did that happen? If it happened in Way of Kings, then the kingdom would have fallen apart as the highprinces took sides and went to war. If it was as of Words of Radiance, again kingdom would have fallen apart as the highprinces took sides, and the Kholins having a weaker army at that time would have lost. If you are talking Oathbringer after the Sadeas princedom lost most of their army, as well as the Alethi lacking for a home except for Urithiru which is under Kholin sovereignty, as well as Jasnah being their queen, then I would say the Kholins win. Ialai lost most of her allies, and her army. She cannot currently field a response. 

Hopefully that clarified my post. I am not talking about justice at all. 

 

edit: if you would refer to page 227 of Way of Kings, this is what Dalinar said

"Sadeas. Surely I did not just hear you openly - before the king - call my son usless. Surely you would not say that, as such an insult would demand that I summon my Blade and seek your blood. Shatter the Vengeance Pact. Cause the king's two greatest allies to kill one another. Surely you would not have been that foolish. Surely I misheard."

So duels to the death over insults even between highprinces are most definitely accepted. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 2/16/2019 at 11:33 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

I'm not saying Moash didn't have a right to his anger, I think he was targeting the wrong person. Elkohar was negligent in putting those oldsters in prison and forgetting about them, certainly true. But Roshone engineered the entire mess. He knew the people personally. He asked the favor of an inattentive king. He decided he had to get rid of his business competition by any means. If Moash should have had passionate hatred for any body, it should have been Roshone.

The King claimed that authority. He may have abused it, but it happened on his orders.
If he chooses to heed advice that choice includes taking the responsibility. He did not delegate power. He thought he could rule directly. His choice, his fault.

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

The King claimed that authority. He may have abused it, but it happened on his orders.
If he chooses to heed advice that choice includes taking the responsibility. He did not delegate power. He thought he could rule directly. His choice, his fault.

Which is why I didn't have an issue with Moash until OB. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Just now, Calderis said:

Which is why I didn't have an issue with Moash until OB. 

Why actually? If you put a price on a man's head, you lose the right to complain if he signs up with your enemies. Nor had Kaladin grounds to complain. He agreed. What did he expect?
Sometimes principles collide. Yet I must say that the Vorin lands are ruled by an oppressive aristocracy under religious pretenses. The Darkeyes have every right to rise up and kill aristocrats.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

We aren't talking about a court of law in this case. We are talking about a man seeking vengeance for a wrong done to his people. The King can take responsibility for the act all he wants but the fact is he was duped. And again Moash can be mad at whoever he wants because emotions aren't rational. But if it were me in his shoes, Roshone gets the Shardblade in the neck. I'll let someone else knock off dumb chull Elkohar

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Just now, Bigmikey357 said:

And again Moash can be mad at whoever he wants because emotions aren't rational.

True. Moash has a revolutionary streak.

Just now, Bigmikey357 said:

But if it were me in his shoes, Roshone gets the Shardblade in the neck. I'll let someone else knock off dumb chull Elkohar

Only? Blade dead extremeties. And how long does it take to die from a bladedead gut?

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

If someone did to me what Sadeas did to Kholin and Co, I would murder them, by any means, without hesitation or remorse. Adolin was completely justified.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

10 hours ago, galendo said:

On 2/17/2019 at 3:25 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

 

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say -- I think Brandon is a great author, probably in contention for the greatest fantasy writer today -- but I find this sort of argument displeasing for two reasons.  First, because it entirely kills debate.  One person says something like, "I don't think X should happen because of A, B, and C" and another person comes back and says "I'm sure the author knows better than you."  Which is probably true; but it doesn't really address issues A, B, or C.

The second reason I find this sort of argument unsatisfying is because I can think of several places where it just didn't hold.  I can think of several revelations and plot threads that I think were handled...suboptimally, shall we say, in Mistborn (first trilogy), in The Reckoners, and especially in Warbreaker, and even in Stormlight.  Since this is the Stormlight sub-forum, I'll mention only my primary Stormlight instance where I feel the explanation falls short: that of the Recreance.  I maintained before OB that Brandon had painted himself into a corner and that a good resolution would be impossible; and while he did a much better job of it than I had expected, I still find the explanation to be unbelievable as given.  So however good an author Brandon is, I definitely don't think that he's beyond mistake or critique.  Though I suppose your mileage may also vary

Look, no author is perfect and some story lines will appeal to some readers more than others. I didn't intend for the argument I made to kill debate. My intention was to say that this particular storyline isn't finished, that more repercussions are forthcoming. I'm confident in this because Brandon is no novice, he sees what we see. So if he didn't resolve this plotline in OB he must have a darn good reason. I was saying don't be so hasty to judge this move as a misstep. I'm willing to withhold judgement until we see complete details. Of course if the issue isn't addressed until book 10 or something crazy like that then that would be a kind of mistake in itself.

Actually this is the same argument I have regarding the Recreance. We don't have the full explanation yet so it's hard to judge based on incomplete information. But you may get to the end of the series and find that Brandon dropped the ball in your eyes. That's fine too. Lemme give an example of something I didn't think worked at first then totally did, and an example of something that didn't work for me at all.

Kaladin had my teeth on edge for nearly the entirety of WOR. Not trusting Dalinar. Not trusting Lighteyes. Trusting that cremhole Moash and not outting him as he turns traitor. And every time I thought he's about to turn the corner here comes Amaram to piss on the parade. If I had thrown the book away after the prison chapter I'd have missed out on a truly epic ending. And I had to realize that ending isn't as effective without him having been drug through the mud over and over.

Something that didn't resonate with me? The ASK triangle wrap up. While I think Shallan picked the right dude, the way Brandon closed it out felt rushed to me. After all the angst and build-up, the resolution was anticlimactic. 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We aren't talking about a court of law in this case. We are talking about a man seeking vengeance for a wrong done to his people.

We are also talking about that, but not only. Moash wanted revenge. And he is not the only case. Adolin pulled of what Moash only tried. Sylphrena almost died. Pattern had no issue. Why?

Adolin confessed his action, let's be neutral, to a Knight Radiant, who is bound by an oath. As is his father. Hence there is the question of how that plays out in the eyes of spren bound to Honor's principles to an extent. And it looks to me as if Spren have no problem with murdering people in revenge. Sylphrena had this issue because Kaladin had promised to protect Elhokar. Is that because she is Honorspren or would all spren see it that way?

[Vissy]

Honorspren see things differently than other spren. Certain spren would likely approve of Adolin's actions while others would not, just like with people. I doubt Kaladin is going to have a massive issue with it.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Vissy

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

6 hours ago, Vissy said:

Honorspren see things differently than other spren. Certain spren would likely approve of Adolin's actions while others would not, just like with people. I doubt Kaladin is going to have a massive issue with it.

Remember. Sadeas victimized Kaladin too. 

Kaladin almost killed Syl due to an Oath conflict.

What Adolin does wouldn't affect Dalinar's or Kaladin's Oaths.

Adolin kills Sadeas as much for neutralizing a future threat as for revenge for past deeds.

[Karger he/him]

On 2/16/2019 at 3:26 PM, galendo said:

My main problem with this argument:

 If you think that Sadeas should have been assassinated for the greater good, then it seems you're also arguing that Ehlokar should have been assassinated for the greater good.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong.  But it seems weird to me to have so many people be in favor of Adolin murdering Sadeas when they are simultaneously against Moash murdering Elhokar.

That is not the same at all.  First of all Moash tried to kill Elhokar during the time he was sworn to defend him.  Second of all Elhokar tried multiple times to be a better person and a better king.  He unbent his pride and asked for Kaladin's help and he swore himself to his uncle's cause despite his uncle owing fealty to him.  While he was not a good king incompetence cannot be a flaw worthy of a death sentence.  He also even before his radiant journey did learn his lesson about treating people like he treated Moash's grandparents as evidenced by the fact that Dalinar insistently knows what Kaladin is talking about when Kaladin mentions it.  (It even has a name!) Moash also turns down Kaladin's suggestion that he legally take action against Roshone with Dalinar.

Sadeas on the other hand was actively and maliciously trying to kill people for a personal vendetta and was a real and present danger to the entire planet. I think their might be a tiny difference between killing someone who might just cause the apocalypse and killing someone cause you happen to be angry about how incompetent that someone was several years ago.

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Karger
update

[Karger he/him]

18 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If someone did to me what Sadeas did to Kholin and Co, I would murder them, by any means, without hesitation or remorse. Adolin was completely justified.

I sympathize but do not think I agree.  Emotions may not be rational as has been noted many times above however that does not make the honorable or right.  Yes what Sadeas did was terrible and yes many people would agree that you have the right to exact retribution.  I must still say "Journey before destination" you can't do something wrong just to get something right.  Yes Sadeas should be punished for his actions but the purpose of a punishment is so that others know the consequences of similar behavior it is not so that you can feel better because the person that angered you is now dead.  Just because he should be punished does not give you the right to punish him.

[Vissy]

Who cares who has the "right"? It's an arbitrary concept that can be given to you after the fact, or not. Adolin did the only right thing at the time. It's an apocalypse, and there's a guy who doesn't care about it because they're too salty and bitter about losing a personal power struggle that has already become meaningless.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Vissy