Can all Truthwatchers see the future?

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

Can Renarin see the future because he’s a Truthwatcher, or because Glys is corrupted? Vorin culture says that seeing the future is forbidden, and Hessi (in Mythica) said that was because seeing the future was of Moeltach, the Unmade who causes Death Rattles. I find it hard to believe that the Vorin people would frown upon seeing the future so much if a whole order of their sacred Radiant protectors could do it. If this is an ability that only Renarin can have because of his spren, will he get other special abilities too, or are there perhaps Truthwatcher powers that he doesn’t get?

[RShara she/her]

I would personally say he can see the future because Glys is corrupted. Regular Truthwatchers, I'll bet, can see the present and maybe the past.

[Scion of the Mists]

One of the Truthwatcher gems from the Urithiru Gem Archive reveals that at least one other Truthwatcher was able to see the future:

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

It's unclear what exactly that means.  It could mean that all Truthwatchers can see the future, but then it wouldn't be such a secret.  It could mean that Sja-anat "enlightened" a Truthwatcher spren in the past, but it's thought in the book that that was impossible.  

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

One of the Truthwatcher gems from the Urithiru Gem Archive reveals that at least one other Truthwatcher was able to see the future:

It's unclear what exactly that means.  It could mean that all Truthwatchers can see the future, but then it wouldn't be such a secret.  It could mean that Sja-anat "enlightened" a Truthwatcher spren in the past, but it's thought in the book that that was impossible.  

This is totally my own opinion, and I do not have anything in book to cite to back it up, but I personally have always felt too much is being made of that. I could know friend A and B are horrible for each other, but know if I told them my opinion, they would get pissed, so I keep my mouth shut. They get together, are horrible for each other and then break up. So in that scenario I couldn't tell anyone, couldn't say it, and I foresaw it, all without magic.But that is just my own thoughts.  

Edited February 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

This is totally my own opinion, and I do not have anything in book to cite to back it up, but I personally have always felt too much is being made of that. I could know friend A and B are horrible for each other, but know if I told them my opinion, they would get pissed, so I keep my mouth shut. They get together, are horrible for each other and then break up. So in that scenario I couldn't tell anyone, couldn't say it, and I foresaw it, all without magic.But that is just my own thoughts.  

Yeah this sounds more like the Truthwatcher foresaw it because (s)he was thinking ahead and predicted this outcome, though that does beg the question of why the person can’t talk about it

Edited February 6, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[MountainKing]

Because it's close to future sight. Imagine if you could see and hear everything anywhere, and then you used that to create super predictions.

[Saodar he/him]

5 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

One of the Truthwatcher gems from the Urithiru Gem Archive reveals that at least one other Truthwatcher was able to see the future:

It's unclear what exactly that means.  It could mean that all Truthwatchers can see the future, but then it wouldn't be such a secret.  It could mean that Sja-anat "enlightened" a Truthwatcher spren in the past, but it's thought in the book that that was impossible.  

We know that spren have bonded with two Radiants in the past - an old Radiant and a new one - so is it out of the question that Glys himself has been bonded to someone before?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

1 hour ago, Saodar said:

We know that spren have bonded with two Radiants in the past - an old Radiant and a new one - so is it out of the question that Glys himself has been bonded to someone before?

The real question is whether or not Glys was corrupted the last time he had bonded a Radiant.

[galendo]

7 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

One of the Truthwatcher gems from the Urithiru Gem Archive reveals that at least one other Truthwatcher was able to see the future:

It's unclear what exactly that means.  It could mean that all Truthwatchers can see the future, but then it wouldn't be such a secret.  It could mean that Sja-anat "enlightened" a Truthwatcher spren in the past, but it's thought in the book that that was impossible.  

It's quite possible that all Truthwatchers can see the future even though talking about it is taboo.  Like, maybe since seeing the future is generally of Odium, the people on Team Honor prefer to be very careful about what they say and do.  Especially if there's a chance that they might be wrong.  We know that seeing the future is chancy at best, even for Shards.  So Truthwatchers can probably only "cry wolf" so many times before, well, before it isn't worthwhile any longer.  Even if, some percentage of the time, there actually is a wolf.

[Odium's_Shard]

7 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

This is totally my own opinion, and I do not have anything in book to cite to back it up, but I personally have always felt too much is being made of that. I could know friend A and B are horrible for each other, but know if I told them my opinion, they would get pissed, so I keep my mouth shut. They get together, are horrible for each other and then break up. So in that scenario I couldn't tell anyone, couldn't say it, and I foresaw it, all without magic.But that is just my own thoughts.  

I mean, I think whilst that is a fair point, it's a case of Chekhov's Gun. The whole point of this forum is we're under the assumption that if BS puts it out there, especially when he doesn't have to, it's meant to tease us. He knows we'll read into it. Whether it can be explained away or not after the fact is up for debate, but this quote is here to provoke:

Quote

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this."

In my mind, this doesn't speak directly to the ability of a Truthwatcher. The likely reason it's forbidden in Vorinism is because it is not of Honor and is not of the abilities of a Radiant. It almost certainly goes against the Ideals of Honor, in that knowing the future and profiteering from it is not honorable.

Instead, it likely indicates (and there's no real reason why this cannot be true) the influence of Odium or another Shard on previous era Radiants. They know that foreseeing the future is a dark Surge, or not of Honor, hence why they must whisper amongst their fellow Radiants when recording their gem.

Instead, we should focus on whether there are other Surges/Orders that have exhibited "corrupted" variants of their powers, or are prone to the influence of non-Honorable intents.

[insert_anagram_here]

I think, a theory has been mentioned before on the forums, that seeing the future is forbidden because it's too risky. as Hoid has warned Shallan as well.

Azure rationalised that Kaladin could've had the vision that Dalinar was in danger "through some tide of Fortune" and that has led to the Realmatic theory that when someone foresee the future it causes ripples of visions to people connected to the Spiritual Realm.

So a TW could see the future, but the enemy would get a 'premonition' of how the KR plan changed because of that knowledge. Its a 'double edged sword' ability that cancels itself, if not used with caution. 

Now I personally think that Sja-anat's corruption adds one more element to that danger, because she might essentially 'highjack' that vision to be something she wants to show, in order to lead a Radiant towards a certain path.

That's why the Vorin religion was established to reject the notion of foreseeing, to protect future generations from making the same grave mistakes. 

[Pathfinder]

10 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

The real question is whether or not Glys was corrupted the last time he had bonded a Radiant.

I think this is a good point. I think the answer is no considering Sja-anat as well as older texts all indicate she never corrupted a radiant spren before. She references that she has never done anything like an oathgate before, and if I recall correctly Hessi's Mythica comments on it being lesser spren. 

10 hours ago, galendo said:

It's quite possible that all Truthwatchers can see the future even though talking about it is taboo.  Like, maybe since seeing the future is generally of Odium, the people on Team Honor prefer to be very careful about what they say and do.  Especially if there's a chance that they might be wrong.  We know that seeing the future is chancy at best, even for Shards.  So Truthwatchers can probably only "cry wolf" so many times before, well, before it isn't worthwhile any longer.  Even if, some percentage of the time, there actually is a wolf.

 

9 hours ago, Odium's_Shard said:

I mean, I think whilst that is a fair point, it's a case of Chekhov's Gun. The whole point of this forum is we're under the assumption that if BS puts it out there, especially when he doesn't have to, it's meant to tease us. He knows we'll read into it. Whether it can be explained away or not after the fact is up for debate, but this quote is here to provoke:

In my mind, this doesn't speak directly to the ability of a Truthwatcher. The likely reason it's forbidden in Vorinism is because it is not of Honor and is not of the abilities of a Radiant. It almost certainly goes against the Ideals of Honor, in that knowing the future and profiteering from it is not honorable.

Instead, it likely indicates (and there's no real reason why this cannot be true) the influence of Odium or another Shard on previous era Radiants. They know that foreseeing the future is a dark Surge, or not of Honor, hence why they must whisper amongst their fellow Radiants when recording their gem.

Instead, we should focus on whether there are other Surges/Orders that have exhibited "corrupted" variants of their powers, or are prone to the influence of non-Honorable intents.

Well Brandon has written in red herrings before to keep the readers guessing. So just because it is interpreted one way, does not mean that is the only way just because it was written. I have a response for all of the truthwatcher futurists below

edit: one more thing about because it was written it can't be a red herring. Let's look at the placement. People have been wondering if something was up with Renarin's spren since Words of Radiance. The placement of the recording is before it is revealed that Glys was corrupted. I take it as a means to keep the readers guessing all the way up to the final reveal. To cause readers to wonder that other truthwatchers could have seen the future, so Renarin must be a "normal" truthwatcher and nothing is wrong with his spren. Till it is revealed that his spren is in fact corrupted and strongly alluded to that his future sight is due to that corruption. 

9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I think, a theory has been mentioned before on the forums, that seeing the future is forbidden because it's too risky. as Hoid has warned Shallan as well.

Azure rationalised that Kaladin could've had the vision that Dalinar was in danger "through some tide of Fortune" and that has led to the Realmatic theory that when someone foresee the future it causes ripples of visions to people connected to the Spiritual Realm.

So a TW could see the future, but the enemy would get a 'premonition' of how the KR plan changed because of that knowledge. Its a 'double edged sword' ability that cancels itself, if not used with caution. 

Now I personally think that Sja-anat's corruption adds one more element to that danger, because she might essentially 'highjack' that vision to be something she wants to show, in order to lead a Radiant towards a certain path.

That's why the Vorin religion was established to reject the notion of foreseeing, to protect future generations from making the same grave mistakes. 

So my big thing is, if all truthwatchers can see the future, and we have every indication that Renarin has been doing so for some time, then why have we not see Stump do the same thing? We know she is a truthwatcher. She has been surgebinding for sometime. Also I will add Ym. Neither of them saw Nale coming for them long before he arrived. I will add further it is only Renarin who is listed on Taravangian's Diagram in black when Odium appears and extrapolates. It is confirmed by Brandon that the reason for this is because of Renarin's future sight. So if Renarin's future sight can cause an atium like effect to Odium's vision, then why not every other truthwatcher, especially when we have seen one bonded and regularly using her surges?

edit: and it can't be because she hasn't "advanced enough yet" to use lightweaving to see the future, because Renarin has stated he has trouble lightweaving for some time. He is only able to use it (we think) against the thunderclast alllllll the way at the end of the book. So he has been doing his future deal long before understanding/knowing how to use lightweaving

Edited February 7, 2019 by Pathfinder

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Neither of them saw Nale coming for them long before he arrived

I admit I haven't read Stump's or Ym's parts as much as I's like in order to contribute, so I'll have to come back to this sometime later.

But from the top of my head, could it be that Nale, since he is invested, felt some 'tides of Fortune' (or even has someone doing this for him) and that's why he knew where the Truthwatchers were and hunted them down, in the first place?

And I still think the argument that " hasn't "advanced enough yet" still stands because it's a different ability to use Progression, another to use Illumination and another to use the combination of the two.  ( Edit: Shallan has trouble with Transformation but she was 'affixing' illusions on Pattern since the beginning of OB. )

Also, I don't think we can be sure that Renarin's future sight is a 'proper' one if Glys is corrupted right? Couldn't Sja-anat's interference basically 'fake' it?

On Sja-anat, from Coppermind:

Quote

“ Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants. They spoke extensively of her ability to corrupt spren, though only "lesser" spren—whatever that means. ”

— From Hessi’s Mythica, page 89^[1]

 

If it's only 'lesser' spren why would Radiants fear her so much? @Pathfinder

Edited February 7, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
Added the bid about Shallan

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I admit I haven't read Stump's or Ym's parts as much as I's like in order to contribute, so I'll have to come back to this sometime later.

But from the top of my head, could it be that Nale, since he is invested, felt some 'tides of Fortune' (or even has someone doing this for him) and that's why he knew where the Truthwatchers were and hunted them down, in the first place?

And I still think the argument that " hasn't "advanced enough yet" still stands because it's a different ability to use Progression, another to use Illumination and another to use the combination of the two.

Also, I don't think we can be sure that Renarin's future sight is a 'proper' one if Glys is corrupted right? Couldn't Sja-anat's interference basically 'fake' it?

On Sja-anat, from Coppermind:

If it's only 'lesser' spren why would Radiants fear her so much? @Pathfinder

No problemo

I could buy that in so far as given Nale's use of a larkin, he clearly has knowledge and access to means the average person does not have in order to dispatch surgebinders. I don't think this is one such case, but I do acknowledge it is a very real possibility with precedent to back it up. 

I still disagree here because as per Renarin, for most of even Oathbringer, he wasn't able to make illumination work, nonetheless combine the two. So if the logic is that the future sight of the truthwatchers involves illumination alone, or a combination of illumination and regrowth, then Renarin should not be able to do it, because he spent three entire books (Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer), not knowing how to use illumination at all, and yet he saw the future throughout all three books. 

Theoretically yes, though I do not think so considering there is a singer song that literally says there is a void form for seeing the future, and that is moeloch's (an unmade) entire schtick. So I would think it is less the corruption copying the future sight, and more the corruption is allowing access to the future sight that normally is only a purview of voidform.

So I love that you quoted that, because it just caused me to come up with a theory I am going to post a new thread for. If we assume what the Mythica said is true, and originally only "lesser" spren could be corrupted, then why did radiants fear her? Potentially because lesser spren is what shardplate is made from! (I state that realizing the jury is still out on whether or not shardplate is made of lesser spren). This could prevent or cause problems with summoning shardplate for radiants in battle. This theory literally just came to me so there is a lot of roughness to it. i will think on it more, and see if I can add more to it and then post a thread for it. 

[insert_anagram_here]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I still disagree here because as per Renarin, for most of even Oathbringer, he wasn't able to make illumination work, nonetheless combine the two.

I'm not really disagreeing here tbh as I don't think I've got all the information down to have that much of a strong opinion. Just throwing counter arguments for the sake of discussion challenge (sorry!)

Shallan has trouble with Transformation but she was 'affixing' illusions on Pattern since the beginning of OB, so maybe a KR doesn't need to master both Surges in order to combine them for small amounts of time? Um, I can't remember how much in control Renarin is of his 'future sight', could it be that he managed to get a few visions by chance?

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I love that you quoted that, because it just caused me to come up with a theory I am going to post a new thread for.

Haha, glad to be of help, I'm curious what the Shard has to say about this.

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm not really disagreeing here tbh as I don't think I've got all the information down to have that much of a strong opinion. Just throwing counter arguments for the sake of discussion challenge (sorry!)

Shallan has trouble with Transformation but she was 'affixing' illusions on Pattern since the beginning of OB, so maybe a KR doesn't need to master both Surges in order to combine them for small amounts of time? Um, I can't remember how much in control Renarin is of his 'future sight', could it be that he managed to get a few visions by chance?

Haha, glad to be of help, I'm curious what the Shard has to say about this.

No worries lol

Personally I do not see "affixing" illusions to pattern nor objects as a partial use of transformation, but that is my own interpretation of the abilities. i think we do not see her use an actual combination of the two till near the end of Oathbringer where her illusions begin to take on physical substance, and Jasnah comments on how she thinks Shallan is doing exactly that. Renarin received visions in Words of Radiance multiple times (I believe the count is 4 or 5? Each time for each time the writing was shown, and then again when the everstorm was about to appear at the end of Words of Radiance. Then we know he saw Jasnah killing him, Dalinar turning evil, and Teft showing up. That is three additional times. So that is 8 times we officially(ish) know of. We have no idea how many other times he has done so that we have not seen. Renarin has had visions enough times that he knows what to look for/when it is coming. 

Lol, thanks, just need some times to frame my thoughts a bit before I post it.