Yelig-nar is a Rosharan Nightblood

[Pathfinder]

To be clear from onset, the title was written for the sake of brevity. I am not saying Yelig-nar was created like Nightblood. I am not saying Yelig-nar is an awakened blade or was awakened in anyway. I am also not saying Yelig-nar is nightblood when Rosharan investiture is used to create it. 

Ok, now that I established what I am not saying, let me establish what I am saying. Nightblood when wielded consumes investiture. If there is not an outside source (such as the breaths of enemies, or stormlight) nightblood consumes the innate investiture of the wielder till death. When Nightblood is sheathed, there is no investiture consumed/lost. I posit that Yelig-nar functions the same way. First we see Aesudan with Yelig-nar. She swallowed the stone before we see her on screen. During her conversation with Kaladin and Elhokar, she implies that she had bonded Yelig-nar some time ago. When they first approached her, she seemed completely human, just acted oddly. No red eyes, no rock like protrusions. It was only when she began to summon Yelig-nar's power that her eyes began to glow red, and the crystals began to grow. Then we have Amaram. We see him swallow the stone on screen. The glowing red eyes and crystals accelerate far faster than what we saw happen with Aesudan. I posit the reason for this is he not only summoned Yelig-nar's powers, but began to actively use them in combat with Kaladin. I think Odium set up both Aesudan and Amaram to fail knowing that unless you have a means of drawing in outside investiture (such as stormlight), then anytime you activate Yelig-nar and use his powers, it then begins to consume/feed on the individual to fuel said powers. I feel control is needed to not get carried away with using Yelig-nar's powers resulting in it consuming too much too fast, and the user perishing (like when Nightblood is unsheathed and begins feeding). I think the only way to be a "perfect bond" for Yelig-nar is to

1. Either be a fused, radiant, or some other entity with access to investiture for it to consume

2. Be in control of yourself so as to not channel too much of Yelig-nar's power without the amount of investiture to back up to the use. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Nice, seems inline with the text and leads to this speculation:

Vrye + Jezrien's Honorblade + Yelig-nar + ready supply of Voidlight = terrifying, and possibly even Odium's Champion (if Odium is forced into the Contest of Champions ).

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Nice, seems inline with the text and leads to this speculation:

Vrye + Jezrien's Honorblade + Yelig-nar + ready supply of Voidlight = terrifying, and possibly even Odium's Champion (if Odium is forced into the Contest of Champions ).

Thanks!

Hmmm, well Vyre would be able to access stormlight due to the honorblade. If he could also find a way to access voidlight, then having two fuel sources to feed Yelig-nar would truly make him a fearsome opponent as he could use a lot of the abilities with rather impunity. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Quantus]

I like it, there's a certain symmetry to the Overload image. 

That being said I'd like it better if we could find a way to reconcile a few other aspects of Yelig-nar and his whole Gem thing, so lets see if we can come up with something that fits this.  The Gem swallowing mechanic always seemed to most directly mirror two other things: Singer (or any rosharan creature's) Gemhearts and Allomancy.  Gems on Roshar are described by WOB as Lightbulbs screwed directly into the Spiritual Realm, which is why Perfect Gems still Glow even if they arent loosing Stormlight.  The Creatures on Roshar grow their gemhearts as a sort of of Crystallized bleed-through from the Spiritual Realm, which is why they are all chemically perfect (if not always perfect crystals).  And the Gemhearts are the reason Singer can perceive the Rhythms and facilitates the change in Forms, which (and this plays into your observation) they can only do it during a Storm when there is a ready supply of Stormlight.  In light of that, it seemed to be to resemble Allomancy in that you Swallow something and that bonds/Connects you to it enough that, given the right "key" object (metal for Scadrial, Gems for Roshar) it can form a Conduit to a particular Shard's power.  The Gem Growths on Yelig-nar's host might then be more along the lines of excess and/or inefficient use of the Power being Channeled through them, that is defaulting to a sort of uncontrolled, Cancerous Gemheart growth.  Thus without total control of that power it overwhelms.  From there I could see having a secondary Stormlight supply acting as a Balancing force, or perhaps it's more that having a secondary means of Using the Power acts as a pressure relief. 

Does any of that jive with how you are picturing this?

 

Side Note: What did the crystals look like in each case?  Im curios if they at all reflected the type of gem swallowed, or something else.

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I like it, there's a certain symmetry to the Overload image. 

That being said I'd like it better if we could find a way to reconcile a few other aspects of Yelig-nar and his whole Gem thing, so lets see if we can come up with something that fits this.  The Gem swallowing mechanic always seemed to most directly mirror two other things: Singer (or any rosharan creature's) Gemhearts and Allomancy.  Gems on Roshar are described by WOB as Lightbulbs screwed directly into the Spiritual Realm, which is why Perfect Gems still Glow even if they arent loosing Stormlight.  The Creatures on Roshar grow their gemhearts as a sort of of Crystallized bleed-through from the Spiritual Realm, which is why they are all chemically perfect (if not always perfect crystals).  And the Gemhearts are the reason Singer can perceive the Rhythms and facilitates the change in Forms, which (and this plays into your observation) they can only do it during a Storm when there is a ready supply of Stormlight.  In light of that, it seemed to be to resemble Allomancy in that you Swallow something and that bonds/Connects you to it enough that, given the right "key" object (metal for Scadrial, Gems for Roshar) it can form a Conduit to a particular Shard's power.  The Gem Growths on Yelig-nar's host might then be more along the lines of excess and/or inefficient use of the Power being Channeled through them, that is defaulting to a sort of uncontrolled, Cancerous Gemheart growth.  Thus without total control of that power it overwhelms.  From there I could see having a secondary Stormlight supply acting as a Balancing force, or perhaps it's more that having a secondary means of Using the Power acts as a pressure relief. 

Does any of that jive with how you are picturing this?

 

Side Note: What did the crystals look like in each case?  Im curios if they at all reflected the type of gem swallowed, or something else.

Interesting. So little point of clarity, from what I understand gems that develop in the native fauna are not perfect. They still need to be cut. It is the cut that determines if they are perfect gemstones. I think the gem growths that appear as Yelig-nar consumes is a by production of his investiture consumption, like how Nightblood gives off black smoke heavier than air. The description implies to me that the crystal structure is actually replacing the body as it is consumed. As to the reason for swallowing the gemstone, I do agree that I feel it is a channel for Yelig-nars power to enter the physical realm. 

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Interesting. So little point of clarity, from what I understand gems that develop in the native fauna are not perfect. They still need to be cut. It is the cut that determines if they are perfect gemstones. I think the gem growths that appear as Yelig-nar consumes is a by production of his investiture consumption, like how Nightblood gives off black smoke heavier than air. The description implies to me that the crystal structure is actually replacing the body as it is consumed. As to the reason for swallowing the gemstone, I do agree that I feel it is a channel for Yelig-nars power to enter the physical realm. 

All I meant is that they are chemically perfect, meaning that they have no impurities like the mined ones do (here or on Roshar); they have Flaws, but no Impurities. They are not necessarily perfect in terms of Crystalline structure, which along with Cut determines how well they hold Stormlight, as you say. 

Quote

Questioner

Are gemhearts, the gems in those chemically identical to mined [gem] stones?

Brandon Sanderson

*clarification* They are very similar. Not 100% chemically identical, they are far more pure for one thing. You would call them the same substance, but you would say, "Wow, this gem has no impurities." They may have flaws, but no impurities. Meaning, in a lot of gemstones the colors waver and vary as they different minerals come in, and things like that, and so what makes a--

Questioner

So it's just a pure ionic bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Footnote:    
Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

My understanding of Nightbloods smoke is that is the one instance where he actually looses Investiture, being the Corrupted and consumed Breaths he eats out of people.  It cam e up recently when talking about how the limits of he absorbs Investiture, Id previously thought he didnt actually ever loose any, just sucked it in like a black hole.  Excellent point about how the Crystal is actively replacing organs, I feel like there should be more implication there, with the host still mostly functioning while becoming this Crystal Golem, but Im not sure what it would be yet.

 

Check out This WOB about the thematic intent of Nightblood as a Chained Monster rather than a Weapon, I feel like it supports your general line of thinking:

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood

Nightblood's name, by the way, is supposed to sound kind of like the names of the Returned. I played with various different ways for his powers to manifest. I liked the idea of him driving those who hold him to kill anyone nearby. It seemed to work with the concepts that have come before—a kind of unholy, sentient mix of Stormbringer and the One Ring.

The strangest thing about him is the idea that his form isn't that important. The sheath is like a binding for him, keeping his power contained. So drawing him out isn't like drawing a regular weapon, but rather an unleashing of a creature who has been kept chained.

Once that creature is unleashed, he becomes a weapon—even if he's unleashed only a little bit. The sheath itself turns into a weapon, twisting those around it. You don't need to stab someone with Nightblood to kill them; smashing them on the back with the sheath works just as well. It will crunch bones, but beyond that, merely touching them with the sheath when the smoke is leaking can be deadly.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 7, 2011)

 

 

 

 

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

All I meant is that they are chemically perfect, meaning that they have no impurities like the mined ones do (here or on Roshar); they have Flaws, but no Impurities. They are not necessarily perfect in terms of Crystalline structure, which along with Cut determines how well they hold Stormlight, as you say. 

My understanding of Nightbloods smoke is that is the one instance where he actually looses Investiture, being the Corrupted and consumed Breaths he eats out of people.  It cam e up recently when talking about how the limits of he absorbs Investiture, Id previously thought he didnt actually ever loose any, just sucked it in like a black hole.  Excellent point about how the Crystal is actively replacing organs, I feel like there should be more implication there, with the host still mostly functioning while becoming this Crystal Golem, but Im not sure what it would be yet.

 

Check out This WOB about the thematic intent of Nightblood as a Chained Monster rather than a Weapon, I feel like it supports your general line of thinking:

 

 

 

 

Ah, now I see. Sorry I misunderstood

Thank you. I think the individual still being able to exist even as it is being consumed is a means to prolong yelig-nar's feeding, and mirrors nightblood though I am not sure if we ever saw someone wield the blade without a means of drawing in stormlight.......wait! Szeth did before he bonded a spren! He used nightblood very quickly, but he was able to take out the blade, kill the warden and sheathe it once more all while being drained (I believe his arm gets paler as result if I remember correctly). 

[+Invocation]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

(I believe his arm gets paler as result if I remember correctly). 

It left streaks up his arm, yes.

I now have an interesting question: if you gave Amaram while fully under Yelig-nar's influence Nightblood, would Nightblood feed on Yelig-nar before Yelig-nar could feed on the corrupted Investiture within Nightblood?

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Invocation said:

It left streaks up his arm, yes.

I now have an interesting question: if you gave Amaram while fully under Yelig-nar's influence Nightblood, would Nightblood feed on Yelig-nar before Yelig-nar could feed on the corrupted Investiture within Nightblood?

Lol, in this case I don't think it would work out the way you are going for. I think they would both feed directly on Amaram till Amaram goes poof. Once Amaram no longer existed, Yelig-nar's connection to the physical realm ceases so nightblood couldn't feed on him, and since nightblood can't swallow the gemstone to give Yelig-nar an anchor to feed from, yelig-nar couldn't feed on nightblood. It would be interesting to see who would win the eating contest if they could eat each other, but I do not think it is possible to set up such a scenario. lol

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol, in this case I don't think it would work out the way you are going for. I think they would both feed directly on Amaram till Amaram goes poof. Once Amaram no longer existed, Yelig-nar's connection to the physical realm ceases so nightblood couldn't feed on him, and since nightblood can't swallow the gemstone to give Yelig-nar an anchor to feed from, yelig-nar couldn't feed on nightblood. It would be interesting to see who would win the eating contest if they could eat each other, but I do not think it is possible to set up such a scenario. lol

Storms. I thought I might have found the perfect solution to two of Roshar's problems right there.

[deacon]

That's a really cool idea actually. Umm... I mean, like Yelig-nar is technically a mini-mini-Shard (splintering off of Odium and all that). Isn't Nightblood kinda similar in that he has lots and lots of Shard power? 

[Ripheus23]

Maybe there's a Nightblood analog per Shardworld, a Shardbane so to speak. So, take Nightblood, bind Yelig-nar's crystal to him, inscribe Aons for evil on him, etc. and so forth and ZAM there's your Big Shardbad.

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, deacon said:

That's a really cool idea actually. Umm... I mean, like Yelig-nar is technically a mini-mini-Shard (splintering off of Odium and all that). Isn't Nightblood kinda similar in that he has lots and lots of Shard power? 

Kind of, but Nightblood has multi-Shardic chunks of Investiture, including apparently a sizeable helping of Ruin's Investiture (sizeable as in it's more than the background bit in everything).

 

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe there's a Nightblood analog per Shardworld, a Shardbane so to speak. So, take Nightblood, bind Yelig-nar's crystal to him, inscribe Aons for evil on him, etc. and so forth and ZAM there's your Big Shardbad.

That...sounds like a really bad idea.

[Quantus]

14 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol, in this case I don't think it would work out the way you are going for. I think they would both feed directly on Amaram till Amaram goes poof. Once Amaram no longer existed, Yelig-nar's connection to the physical realm ceases so nightblood couldn't feed on him, and since nightblood can't swallow the gemstone to give Yelig-nar an anchor to feed from, yelig-nar couldn't feed on nightblood. It would be interesting to see who would win the eating contest if they could eat each other, but I do not think it is possible to set up such a scenario. lol

This is similar to a thought I had about Nightblood's impact on a Radiant, and for Yelig-nar I think it might depend on how much control he has over the Bond in question, and whether he can sever it at will the way a Spren can the Nahel Bond.  When Nightblood has no other sources of power he begins feeding on the investiture that comprises their own Spiritweb.  The Nahel Bond is literally merging/Connecting the spiritwebs of the Radiant and their Spren, which I would think puts the Spren at risk of getting sucked in by Nightblood if it came to that, though they can consciously End the bond at any time (and so have the option to break it in self-preservation).  For Yelig-Nar, if the Gem is facilitating a similar Bond, he might be able to sever it and run away before he got caught up in Nightblood's feeding frenzy.  Buuut, if it works more like a Gemheart and Singer Form, then he's actually contained within the Gem&crystal growth on the physical plane (the way the Spren of Singer Forms are, or the Spren in Fabrials), then when the Host went Poof the Unmade would as well.

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, deacon said:

That's a really cool idea actually. Umm... I mean, like Yelig-nar is technically a mini-mini-Shard (splintering off of Odium and all that). Isn't Nightblood kinda similar in that he has lots and lots of Shard power? 

I think the terminology in this case is a splinter, but I couldn't say with 100 percent certainty so don't quote me lol. 

12 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe there's a Nightblood analog per Shardworld, a Shardbane so to speak. So, take Nightblood, bind Yelig-nar's crystal to him, inscribe Aons for evil on him, etc. and so forth and ZAM there's your Big Shardbad.

So what you are basically going for is Galactus Devourer of Worlds lol. 

10 hours ago, Invocation said:

That...sounds like a really bad idea.

Lol I concur. 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

This is similar to a thought I had about Nightblood's impact on a Radiant, and for Yelig-nar I think it might depend on how much control he has over the Bond in question, and whether he can sever it at will the way a Spren can the Nahel Bond.  When Nightblood has no other sources of power he begins feeding on the investiture that comprises their own Spiritweb.  The Nahel Bond is literally merging/Connecting the spiritwebs of the Radiant and their Spren, which I would think puts the Spren at risk of getting sucked in by Nightblood if it came to that, though they can consciously End the bond at any time (and so have the option to break it in self-preservation).  For Yelig-Nar, if the Gem is facilitating a similar Bond, he might be able to sever it and run away before he got caught up in Nightblood's feeding frenzy.  Buuut, if it works more like a Gemheart and Singer Form, then he's actually contained within the Gem&crystal growth on the physical plane (the way the Spren of Singer Forms are, or the Spren in Fabrials), then when the Host went Poof the Unmade would as well.

Hmmm, that is an interesting question. Is the housing for Yelig-nar an only on switch for it? Does it act as a prison while housed within till the person dies? Hmmm, my only thought so far is no, because we have seen the gemstone used and it is not a perfectly cut gemstone which is required to trap the unmade The Thrill. So I think theoretically Yelig-nar could end the effect if it so chooses, but referencing the Thrill is the best I can come up with to go on, and that is pretty loose. 

[Gasper]

Each of the Unmade serve a purpose in Odium's army, Yelig-Nar seems like an easy way to cause alot of damage really quickly. He is a tactical nuke, not a multimegaton monster designed to wipe out cities. I think that Yelig-Nar is meant to deal with people like Kaladin and Adolin, as in bullet sponge kind of deal with. Yelig-Nar is meant to absorb massive amount of damage from a surgebinder and still be able to function long enough to take out said surgebinder and deal a morale blow to the humans.  

[+Oltux72]

1. On 2/5/2019 at 7:07 PM, Pathfinder said:

   I think the only way to be a "perfect bond" for Yelig-nar is to

   1. Either be a fused, radiant, or some other entity with access to investiture for it to consume

   2. Be in control of yourself so as to not channel too much of Yelig-nar's power without the amount of investiture to back up to the use. 

   3. Be an Alumium Gnat. When you start feeling rocky, you burn some aluminium.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1. 3. Be an Alumium Gnat. When you start feeling rocky, you burn some aluminium.

Hmmmm, honestly I am not sure how to respond to this. At first I went potentially true, but doesn't aluminum just wipe out whatever kinetic investiture is inside you? So you would be wiping yourself of any stores that Yelig-nar could have fed on, resulting in him feeding directly on you. That does call into question though does what Yelig-nar do by feeding on you count as kinetic investiture? If so, then I think it would just destroy the housing, ultimately stopping him from further feeding on you, but I think you would still die depending on how far the crystals have progressed in replace your body/organs. If however what Yelig-nar isn't kinetic investiture, because he is feeding on yours to fuel his powers that you use, then burning aluminum would potentially accomplish nothing. 

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Hmmmm, honestly I am not sure how to respond to this. At first I went potentially true, but doesn't aluminum just wipe out whatever kinetic investiture is inside you? So you would be wiping yourself of any stores that Yelig-nar could have fed on, resulting in him feeding directly on you. That does call into question though does what Yelig-nar do by feeding on you count as kinetic investiture? If so, then I think it would just destroy the housing, ultimately stopping him from further feeding on you, but I think you would still die depending on how far the crystals have progressed in replace your body/organs. If however what Yelig-nar isn't kinetic investiture, because he is feeding on yours to fuel his powers that you use, then burning aluminum would potentially accomplish nothing. 

Allomantic aluminum does more than just wipe kinetic Investiture, as the metals in an Allomancer's stomach are definitely not kinetic Investiture.  

[Pathfinder]

44 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Allomantic aluminum does more than just wipe kinetic Investiture, as the metals in an Allomancer's stomach are definitely not kinetic Investiture.  

It wipes them out when they are being actively burned. Same thing with feruchemical stores. WoB say you could be a leecher and wipe out a feruchemical metal mind, but only while it is being actively tapped. 

edit: currently looking for the WoB I am referring to so I do not make a liar out of myself lol

edit2: some interesting WoB in the same vein that I found while I am pulling up the WoB I referred to

 

FirstRyder
Could Aluminum be used to protect a Surgebinder from a larkin?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes.

havoc_mayhem
Would a larkin be able to steal Stormlight from a surgebinder wearing Shardplate? Any comments on whether Shardplate or aluminium would be more effective protection?

Brandon Sanderson
Getting through both would be relatively equal--with the problem being that Shardplate is powered by investiture, which the larkin could feed on. So aluminum is better in that specific case.

(that says to me he assumed the person was referring to covering themselves in aluminum, not burning it, since a surgebinder was the one referenced

 

Questioner
What would happen if a Leecher touched Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson
*nervous laughter* If a Leecher touched Nightblood the Leecher would be dead. That would not end well.

Questioner
For the Leecher.

Brandon Sanderson
For the Leecher.

(this I think answers what would happen if Nightblood and Yelig-nar could actually eat each other lol)

 

edit: Ok this is a WoB in the direction of what I am looking for, but not the one I meant yet. See below:

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of...am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike.

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Pathfinder