Adonalsium

[Weltall]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Same scenario but now I'm holding Ruin and Preservation. It's safe to say that whatever one Intent is in favor of the other opposes. The Ruin in me is all about ending Kel, my Preservation side does not want to kill anything. Maybe I can make a trade-off. I can murder Kel today but must save Vin tomorrow. Or I can get Lessee to kill him. Whatever but I gotta negotiate. 

Because what I know is that these Intents aren't just pushing me, they're pushing against each other too. The Intents are equal in strength so the more they conflict each other the less influence they can exert on me the Vessel.

These two statements are directly opposed to one another. You acknowledge in the first that multiple intents make it hard to act because you're being pulled in different directions and you have to balance them, then turn around and say that more intents would make it easier to act.

Sazed finds it difficult to act because he has two perfectly opposing intents that he's trying to balance. By the logic of your second statement, Preservation and Ruin should be conflicting with each other so much (and with equal strength) that Sazed is only marginally being influenced by them. Which is, you know, not the case. We've also got a WoB that certain combinations of Shards would exert really weird pressures on the Vessel, which tells us that adding more intents to the mix doesn't lessen your problems but just gives you fascinating new ones.

[goody153]

I think the lesson we all learned is that if anybody becomes a vessel go hold something like Endowment where you won't have much issues. Don't hold something like Honor or diametrically opposed shards like Preservation and Ruin or worse try to reassemble Adonalsium (i mean you are already having a hard time with one or a few shards and you want to assemble all 16 wth is wrong with you) xD

But yeah on a serious note. Adding intents won't necessarily make it easy and as others have said it might add even more weirder problems than Sazed is already facing with just two opposite shards.

I think reassembling adonalsium may have to have a certain pattern of what shards a certain vessel should pick up so that the vessel won't have compatibility and handling issues until all 16 are assembled. Not just blindly pick up each. 

Hell it might even requires a really unique vessel considering each vessel may interpret a shard differently. 

It is actually one hell of a rabbithole to even consider reassembling adonalsium

Edited January 21, 2019 by goody153

[Embrisk]

Hm, didn't know that.

[Wander89]

I'm curious to how it works now that some of the Shards are "united", see: Ruin & Preservation. I think the main goal is obviously to reunite the shards but how this is done and by what means; that's the story.

[goody153]

14 minutes ago, Wander89 said:

I'm curious to how it works now that some of the Shards are "united", see: Ruin & Preservation. I think the main goal is obviously to reunite the shards but how this is done and by what means; that's the story.

Honestly i would rather not have that. That would be the most obvious path of the story in the grandest scale which i don't like.

I'd rather it be in the shardlevel on how the story evolves around the shards. Having grandest scale plan/plot doesn't necessarily mean better for the story (alot of manga/anime stories prove that)

[Wander89]

1 hour ago, goody153 said:

Honestly i would rather not have that. That would be the most obvious path of the story in the grandest scale which i don't like.

I'd rather it be in the shardlevel on how the story evolves around the shards. Having grandest scale plan/plot doesn't necessarily mean better for the story (alot of manga/anime stories prove that)

I guess that it would be obvious however I feel like the execution and turning points along the way would be brilliant.

Journey before Destination

I think we have always expected a greater story with sub-stories involved, I'm sure Brandon even said himself that his plan was to have it all come together but I guess plans can change so time will tell.

[+Croaker's Apprentice]

Why does everyone keep saying that Honor and Odium are opposites ? Honor can cause people to get very,very,  indeed murderously, angry ? 

I do love how long we spend drawing meanings out of single words in this Forum...if HBO televise the Cosmere series it really needs to be called "Game of Semantics" 

[Wander89]

47 minutes ago, Croaker's Apprentice said:

Why does everyone keep saying that Honor and Odium are opposites ? Honor can cause people to get very,very,  indeed murderously, angry ? 

I do love how long we spend drawing meanings out of single words in this Forum...if HBO televise the Cosmere series it really needs to be called "Game of Semantics" 

Not done this myself but people are drawing parallels to the Good Vs. Evil because these are the two opposing forces in the story. I think people forget that there are other things than direct opposites to "good" or "evil" and are trying to draw comparison to a simplistic hero story when the Cosmere is anything but that.

[Bigmikey357]

10 hours ago, Weltall said:

These two statements are directly opposed to one another. You acknowledge in the first that multiple intents make it hard to act because you're being pulled in different directions and you have to balance them, then turn around and say that more intents would make it easier to act.

Sazed finds it difficult to act because he has two perfectly opposing intents that he's trying to balance. By the logic of your second statement, Preservation and Ruin should be conflicting with each other so much (and with equal strength) that Sazed is only marginally being influenced by them. Which is, you know, not the case. We've also got a WoB that certain combinations of Shards would exert really weird pressures on the Vessel, which tells us that adding more intents to the mix doesn't lessen your problems but just gives you fascinating new ones.

The statements are not opposed. You didn't take into account the primary statement. A Vessel with one Shard acts in accordance with that Shard. It depends on the action you want to take. If you hold 1 Shard you cannot act against its Intent. Full stop. If you hold 2 then the window of action opens a crack. It is difficult to act but not impossible. Like I said, the Intents push against each other as much as the Vessel. That's why the window for action becomes wider the more Shards are added into the mix. Depending on the Shard combos it's not likely that being a Vessel will always be fun with respect to the pressures multiple Shards would exert but that's not within my scope of inquiry. 

Let's give another example. Sazed picked up Ruin alone instead of what becomes Harmony. Era 2 does not happen because Sazed could not have gone against Ruin's imperative to destroy. Preservation without a Vessel to guide the power would offer little resistance. Only by holding both can Sazed act according to his inclinations despite how difficult it is for him to do so.

[ND103]

My two cents worth - there's A WOB out there that the reason the original adonalsium had no issues acting (and he did create the system of Roshar so clearly he could act when he felt like it ) was that it was an infinite being holding infinite power. The limitations of shards and their holders is that it's an infinite power held by a finite being. The power greatly enhances their finiteness, but doesn't make them infinite. So for instance harmony is linked to all ruin in the Cosmere. But he can't access it all because his mind is greatly enhanced but finite. He needs to be actively aware and trying to affect a certain part of ruin in the Cosmere to do so. 

 

A reforged mix of 16 shards would likely not lead to an infinite being, unless it developed it's own consciousness (and I have some crazy ideas about that, a conversation for a different place in time). So if harmony gains all 16 shards, or Dalinar united all shards, it would still be limited due to the finite nature of the holder... At least until they get enhanced to an infinite being. Or until Mr. S directly puts something in canon contradicting it. 

Essentially, even if the sixteen were reunited, they would be limited at least for the short term. 

To pull in an analogy from Sandman, it's not like the endless, where the new dream just takes over as the entity dream having its entire scope. The new Adonalsium would be very different and at least in the beginning, limited in scope...

 

Gonna try looking for the WOBs now unless someone else finds them before me. 

[gokucauthon]

I think the ultimate lead up to the cosmere will be a epic battle between shards.  Towards the end I think a lot of the shards will have new vessels, making them able to "use" their "powers."  In the end, the only way to reform Ando would be to have all shards shattered from this battle. Hopefully the last one alive  is "good" and sacrifices themselves to make it a complete shattering of all shards.  The shards combine into one, with no one vessel, just gaining consciousness over time, and I think Ando will have its memories back.  I think Andos investure was enough that he has plenty of identity left in the cosmere to reform, maybe with some memory lapse kinda like the kandra and how they lose memory when their spike isn't in them for a period of time.  Then of course u would need people to protect this combined investure until it can "mature" back into Ando.  Those would be cool stories, people trying to gain that investure for themselves while team guards it.  Guardians of the Cosmere anyone!!!