If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[deacon]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So to clarify my statement on "leaking". This was in reference to using hemalurgy to steal a dead shardblade bond. Inherent to ruin, and hemalurgic spikes is a "loss" of power, a decay. I took the way Brandon responded to mean that the spike would "leak"/decay in power, or lose investiture which is the nature of hemalurgic spikes. I then extrapolated that if the leak of power would slow down the summoning of the blade, then investiture would play a role in summoning of a dead spren over all. So my comment was not to say the spren would "leak". It is the spike that is "leaking", and since a spike steals investiture in various forms (spirit web associated traits), then the leaking to me would be leaking investiture. By extension if the spike leaking investiture would result in the summoning of the dead spren taking longer, then I theorize that a greater amount of investiture could potentially make the summoning come faster, or even restore the spren to life. Hopefully that clarified matters.

edit: i would also like to add, that it is my interpretation of this WoB, that causes me to believe the dead spren are in fact damaged and missing something. But understandably there are multiple interpretations (Calderis's theory foremost among them) that disagree. I have bolded what I consider the pertinent parts below

 

Jerich
Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson
The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich
Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson
It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich
So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich
*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson
Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

 

Added to more of the hemalurgic leaking: Brandon didn't say power either. He said there was leaking specifically in relation to the fact that it would take longer to summon; he specifically said the form of the Blade wouldn't change. Hemalurgy always degrades, it always loses something in the process. In the Mistborn series (treading around spoilers carefully!) what's lost is the trait that's being stolen. It's really important to know that Hemalurgy doesn't only steal investiture. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy/table There are physical traits it can steal, too. Ergo, the logic says, connection is not inherently investiture.

It's the same here: the questioner and Brandon are both talking about the connection/bond to the Blade, not the Blade itself. It's similar to the other topic that's in here, about how gems work with Shardblades. The gem just helps hacks the bond but the Blade itself isn't changed. According to the very question and answer, it's only the bond that's being affected. Power and/or investiture aren't mentioned at all.

Knowing that (1) the spren are what's made of investiture, (2) summoning the dead Blade, Hemalurgy or not, requires Connection (3) Connection is not made of investiture means that more investiture = faster summoning doesn't work. The spren in the dead Blade are certainly damaged, but they aren't losing or gaining investiture when being summoned and dismissed. They're in the same state they've always been since the Recreance. We know this because Brandon said above that even though Hemalurgy would have a decayed bond meaning that it takes longer to summon, the Blade itself is unchanged, it in itself is not more damaged. Connection and investiture are two separate things, here.

(my god, all the words I just had to teach my web browser just in these few paragraphs!)

EDIT: Oh, I got all excited about it but here's WoBs:

Brandon confirming that Connection is not made up of investiture, but is its own separate force and also that spren are comprised of investiture

Spren are investiture, little bits of it that have developed personalities

Here's a fun one: spren CAN take in more investiture and become different - "level up into a higher form of spren" unfortunately the wob goes into so little detail here - god I hope this is expanded on soon

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by deacon

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder

You are still missing my point when it comes to consistency and the distance mechanism. 

I understand perfectly that you're saying that the perpendicularity could have created the different "distance" but there is a problem with that. 

After Dalinar opened the perp, Adolin summoned Maya three times.

10 heartbeats. 

10 heartbeats. 

7.

If the perpendicularity were responsible for the difference, it should be either consistent at 7 across the board, or the first should have been the shortest and they should have gotten successively longer as the perpendicularity was fading. 

Instead, she summons at the normal speed twice and then comes faster when Adolin asks her with a plaintive please. 

Which is why I keep saying it was a choice on her part. A difference of 3 heartbeats can't be blamed on the perpendicularity when it made no difference in the first two instances. 

No problemo, to clarify. You as well as others posited that if the need alone on part of Adolin is what resulted in Maya being summoned faster, than why not when every other shardbearer ever not experience the same thing? Surely they have been in situations of need. I, taking in that information, expanded the concept of the realms becoming closer to include this. I suggested that possibly there was a change in speed normally when great need occurs, just as the WoB says and we agree, the change would be so neglible to go unnoticed. That is why I used the example of the ice cube in a room just above freezing. The ice cube would melt, but would be so slight that it would be unable to be observed with the naked eye unless over a very long period of time. A period of time that a shardbearer in need would not have, nor have the tools at the time to measure. However, if we raise that temperature a bit more, suddenly that melting, that was there before but we just couldn't see, now is apparent. That would then jive with why Adolin was unable to shorten the time summoning in the first two instances while the realm was closer, but was able to the third time. The need potentially always reduced the time to summon, but when the realms were brought together it was just more noticeable in that case. Now to be clear, that is not my own theory. My point is again, we could potentially explain the occurrence with another mechanism.  That is how science works. You posit a theory. You then run a test that confirms the theory. I then see if I can run that test to produce the same results. If I can produce the same results by another means, or cannot reproduce the same results using your means, then the question becomes what is different. Did the test really prove your theory? Or was it due to something outside your theory that was not accounted for? 

14 hours ago, deacon said:

Added to more of the hemalurgic leaking: Brandon didn't say power either. He said there was leaking specifically in relation to the fact that it would take longer to summon; he specifically said the form of the Blade wouldn't change. Hemalurgy always degrades, it always loses something in the process. In the Mistborn series (treading around spoilers carefully!) what's lost is the trait that's being stolen. It's really important to know that Hemalurgy doesn't only steal investiture. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hemalurgy/table There are physical traits it can steal, too. Ergo, the logic says, connection is not inherently investiture.

It's the same here: the questioner and Brandon are both talking about the connection/bond to the Blade, not the Blade itself. It's similar to the other topic that's in here, about how gems work with Shardblades. The gem just helps hacks the bond but the Blade itself isn't changed. According to the very question and answer, it's only the bond that's being affected. Power and/or investiture aren't mentioned at all.

Knowing that (1) the spren are what's made of investiture, (2) summoning the dead Blade, Hemalurgy or not, requires Connection (3) Connection is not made of investiture means that more investiture = faster summoning doesn't work. The spren in the dead Blade are certainly damaged, but they aren't losing or gaining investiture when being summoned and dismissed. They're in the same state they've always been since the Recreance. We know this because Brandon said above that even though Hemalurgy would have a decayed bond meaning that it takes longer to summon, the Blade itself is unchanged, it in itself is not more damaged. Connection and investiture are two separate things, here.

(my god, all the words I just had to teach my web browser just in these few paragraphs!)

EDIT: Oh, I got all excited about it but here's WoBs:

Brandon confirming that Connection is not made up of investiture, but is its own separate force and also that spren are comprised of investiture

Spren are investiture, little bits of it that have developed personalities

Here's a fun one: spren CAN take in more investiture and become different - "level up into a higher form of spren" unfortunately the wob goes into so little detail here - god I hope this is expanded on soon

 

So I read your post and the WoB, and honestly I feel they actually support my theory more than disprove anything. So I will rehash the bullet points of my own theory below, and then go into why I feel those WoB strengthen my theory. I will list the process as assertions, but keep in mind every step is theoretical. 

1. Adolin forms a bond with Maya via an infused gemstone and spending a week or so with her

2. Adolin living the edgedancer qualities, acting honorably, and treating Maya with respect strengthens his Connection with her

3. This strengthened Connection allows her to over time respond more than usual, and summon sooner

4. A bondsmith (considering they can manipulate other radiant's investiture by supercharging their abilties), using the scaffolding that the increased Connection provides, supercharges the bond with investiture, regrowing what is lost, and restores Maya. 

Now to discuss the WoB you included. I have posted them below, highlighting what I feel is the pertinent parts, and then will comment on each in blue

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So, is it possible for a spren to get more Investiture? And if it does, will it kinda level up into a higher form of spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah, it's possible. That is totally possible.

I think that is pretty self explanatory, but all the same I interpret that to say that an increase in investiture does have an effect on spren. That if you could theoretically feed a (by implication) lower spren more investiture and "level" it up to a higher spren, then I think it is most certainly possible to use investiture to heal what was torn out of a dead spren. But that is my own reading of it. 

 

 

Questioner
Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson
Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

So for the same reason for the first WoB, I feel confirming that spren are investiture does nothing to dispute my theory. If anything it supports that additional investiture could potentially heal what was ripped out of them. I would also add that in my opinion, Bondsmiths can jump the hurtle of assigned investiture. Bondsmiths can supercharge other radiants abilities, even though those are the surges of those radiants and we have been told that a radiant cannot use a surge on another radiant that is using a surge because investiture interferes with investiture. Shallan's illusions are hers, yet Dalinar can manipulate them. So too can Hoid, but we are specifically told that that is a power of the bondsmiths, so Hoid in that case is just being Hoid lol. 

 

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Nothing really needing to bold. To clarify, to me, I feel there is the faux bond, and then there is the Connection between the shardbearer and the dead spren. In my opinion the faux bond is formed when the infused gemstone is placed in the blade, and the connection is formed when they keep the blade around them non-stop during the week. If the gemstone is removed, the blade no longer can be summoned, but the bond+Connection is still present. But without the gemstone it cannot function. You cannot summon the blade. In my opinion, it is the increase of Connection that is insulating the bond further, which is why you get more out of it. In my opinion, the bond itself wasn't rebuilt, or healed. It is like taking electric wires, tying them directly together and putting some electrical tape around it. Could the tape wear away? Yep. If there was a power surge could it potentially cause a fire because of improper insulation? Yep. So you are not going to get the full effect you would have from a properly installed connection, but you might get a little more juice out of it than you would without the insulation. That is what i feel is happening with dead shardblades and Adolin. The bondsmith stepping in with the infusion of investiture, coupled with the guide of the strengthened connection would rebuild/restore what was torn out of Maya, allowing a true radiant bond to occur. So I personally do not feel those WoB disproved anything in my theory. You are of course entitled to interpret them differently, and I wish you luck with your theory!

Edited February 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[insert_anagram_here]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Instead, she summons at the normal speed twice and then comes faster when Adolin asks her with a plaintive please. 

You are making the assumption that Maya is in control of how fast she can be summoned.

As I said before you are forgetting this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

Based on what we know currently about ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember that the characters's perception is very important.

Questioner

So then that's why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Right, it's the exact same reason that Kaladin's forehead wounds don't heal. Because he views himself as having those somewhere deep inside of him and he can't heal until that gets away. And it works for the same reason why in Warbreaker when you bring something to life, your intention rather than really what you say is what matters. It's all about perception.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Because he heard her name, he started believing that she could come sooner and in the urgency of that moment, he 'willed' her to come sooner.

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

You are making the assumption that Maya is in control of how fast she can be summoned.

As I said before you are forgetting this WoB:

Because he heard her name, he started believing that she could come sooner and in the urgency of that moment, he 'willed' her to come sooner.

Hmmm, interesting. So what you are saying is you think that since for Szeth, thinking an honorblade could only be summoned in 10 heart beats limited the honorblade to being summoned in 10 heartbeats to him even though we know it could be summoned sooner, that that could work in reverse resulting in a shardblade being summoned sooner based on belief. That by Adolin hearing Maya's name, Adolin then believed she was something more, like a living spren, and thereby believed she could come sooner, and that is how he was able to will her to come sooner. If I understood what you said correctly, interesting points. Not sure I agree, but I see what you are going for. Hmmm, need to think on this more, will follow up with my thoughts once I form them up better

 

edit: ok I came up with a follow up question. So if what you are saying is the heartbeat number is based on perception, and what the user expects to happen, then how do you explain the 10 heartbeats being a thing to begin with? Is it 10 because the wielders at the time felt 10 was an important number due to the radiants, so that kind of bled into it naturally? Or do you have a separate idea?

Edited February 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[insert_anagram_here]

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That by Adolin hearing Maya's name, Adolin then believed she was something more, like a living spren, and thereby believed she could come sooner, and that is how he was able to will her to come sooner.

1

Yes. He wouldn't even need to believe she was something more, but just the fact that she started listening to him, that would make him believe that she would listen to his plea to appear faster and lead him to summon her faster.

The only difference between the 2nd time he summoned her with 10 heartbeats and the 3rd time with 7 heartbeats, was this bit:

Quote

Something tickled his mind, very faint, like a sigh. A single word: Mayalaran. A . . . name?

 (I pasted the locations from OB e-book in a previous post to clear out the misunderstanding that this indeed happened right before the 7 heartbeats).

So assuming that Perception is the reason behind the 7 instead of 10 heartbeats, the argument would then be why did he hear her name at that point. I'm sure some people would argue that it is a nahel bond (I'm not disagreeing exactly because all theories are welcome, but I'm pointing out that there could be an alternative here) And here is where I would argue that the Bondsmith's Adhession is in effect, probably overpowered by the Perpendicularity.

From the Coppermind:

Quote

Spiritual Adhesion

 

Using the Surge of Adhesion to manipulate spiritual, rather than purely physical forces, a Bondsmith can touch another person and forge a spiritual connection between them. This allows the Bondsmith to temporarily speak whatever languages this other person can speak. Whether the Surgebinder must remain physically close to this other person for the ability to be continually used or if it can transfer any other skill or knowledge is unknown. The power bears a great similarity to other applications of Connection such as duralumin Feruchemy on Scadrial.

 

And we know that Shallan and Dalinar could combine their powers (from the Illuminated maps) so maybe the same is happening between the faux-bond (as you call it) and Adhession.

BTW, that's not the only WoB that mentions that Perception plays a vital role in the magic systems.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

In Shallan, in the beginning and middle of the book it's 10 heartbeats, and in the end of the book it's none...?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The 10 heartbeats is required to revive a dead Shardblade.

Questioner (paraphrased)

But he wasn't dead the whole time.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He wasn't.  But perception-- all magic systems in the Cosmere are based on perception-what you think you can do. For instance, Kaladin can't get healed because he sees himself as having a wounded forehead with the scars and that can't vanish because his perception is in the way.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

4

Edited February 12, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes. He wouldn't even need to believe she was something more, but just the fact that she started listening to him, that would make him believe that she would listen to his plea to appear faster and lead him to summon her faster.

The only difference between the 2nd time he summoned her with 10 heartbeats and the 3rd time with 7 heartbeats, was this bit:

 (I pasted the locations from OB e-book in a previous post to clear out the misunderstanding that this indeed happened right before the 7 heartbeats).

So assuming that Perception is the reason behind the 7 instead of 10 heartbeats, the argument would then be why did he hear her name at that point. I'm sure some people would argue that it is a nahel bond (I'm not disagreeing exactly because all theories are welcome, but I'm pointing out that there could be an alternative here) And here is where I would argue that the Bondsmith's Adhession is in effect, probably overpowered by the Perpendicularity.

From the Coppermind:

And we know that Shallan and Dalinar could combine their powers (from the Illuminated maps) so maybe the same is happening between the faux-bond (as you call it) and Adhession.

BTW, that's not the only WoB that mentions that Perception plays a vital role in the magic systems.

Ah, gotcha. So then the order would be:

1. Dalinar brought realms together

2. super charged adhesion area of effect

3. Adolin hears Maya's name

4. Adolin wills her to summon faster

 

Ok, interesting theory. Did you see my follow up question about how you think 10 heartbeats became a thing to begin with? When normal people started to figure out how to bond dead shardblades originally. I could see how 10 being a big thing in their culture could play into that. I was wondering if that was your line of thinking as well, or you had an alternative explanation in line with your theory. 

[insert_anagram_here]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, interesting theory. Did you see my follow up question about how you think 10 heartbeats became a thing to begin with? When normal people started to figure out how to bond dead shardblades originally. I could see how 10 being a big thing in their culture could play into that. I was wondering if that was your line of thinking as well, or you had an alternative explanation in line with your theory.

3

I haven't got any solid theory on that.

If you want to go into my complete tin foil territory:

Spoiler

Maybe ten heartbeats were needed in the past but since Honor's death, they are not needed anymore. Maybe it has something to do with the Ten Essenses in one's body as a focus (they correspond to body parts as well). Maybe it has something to do with the number of planets on the Rosharan system (if they act like a sort of 'firewalls' that protect Roshar). The last one is completely tinfoil with a tiny windmill on top.

3

But what I think should be somehow connected is the recurring theme on Roshar that knowledge gets lost between generations. Societal norms, particularly of Vorin origin, restricted reading and writing to Ardents. Even women have their own written language, disconnected by the glyphs, so this difference in language probably denotes that they 'restarted' the written process independently at some point. So I have a hunch that Hierocracy played its role in hiding all the 'unnecessary' information, whatever their (Ishar maybe?) motives were.

[Calderis]

If that were the case, then why were shardblades ever required ten heartbeats to summon at all? 

In the beginning, everyone would have expected them to be instant, just like they were for the Radiants. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

21 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I haven't got any solid theory on that.

If you want to go into my complete tin foil territory:

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe ten heartbeats were needed in the past but since Honor's death, they are not needed anymore. Maybe it has something to do with the Ten Essenses in one's body as a focus (they correspond to body parts as well). Maybe it has something to do with the number of planets on the Rosharan system (if they act like a sort of 'firewalls' that protect Roshar). The last one is completely tinfoil with a tiny windmill on top.

3

But what I think should be somehow connected is the recurring theme on Roshar that knowledge gets lost between generations. Societal norms, particularly of Vorin origin, restricted reading and writing to Ardents. Even women have their own written language, disconnected by the glyphs, so this difference in language probably denotes that they 'restarted' the written process independently at some point. So I have a hunch that Hierocracy played its role in hiding all the 'unnecessary' information, whatever their (Ishar maybe?) motives were.

Hmmm, so that possibly being a piece of information confused or lost over time. Ehhh I feel like that is a stretch but I do no have anything conclusive to back that up. As to Honor's death playing into it, not sure how Honor dying would result in removing a limit on shardblades when his death seems to limit honorblades more. The 10 essences is an interesting thought! Let me know know when you have further developed your theory on that. I would be interested in reading it!

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If that were the case, then why were shardblades ever required ten heartbeats to summon at all? 

In the beginning, everyone would have expected them to be instant, just like they were for the Radiants. 

Lol great minds think alike. I inquired that above. Though I would add as per WoB, learning about summoning shardblades was stumbled upon by accident. The gemstone was treated as just ornamentation originally, and because shardblades were easy to steal, it became practice to keep them around/on you at all times, which would lead to the bond occurring by happen stance. I think 10 could potentially come out of the cultures belief structure seeing 10 as important (ten radiants, or as @insert_anagram_here mentioned 10 essences) so maybe they connected the shardblades to the radiants and unconsciously connected 10? I agree the 10 connection is pretty loose though. Do you have any ideas on why the 10 heart beats could have been a thing based on perception? Try to reason a way it could work?

[Calderis]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Do you have any ideas on why the 10 heart beats could have been a thing based on perception? Try to reason a way it could work?

Honestly no. Almost all instances of 10 that we are aware of are variants, not sequences. 

10 Heralds, 10 orders, 10 essences, 10 polestones. 

The only 10 I can think that has anything to do with a sequential order which could translate to the passage of time has nothing to do with Honor or Cultivation. The 10 "levels" of Voidbinding, of which we know nothing. 

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Honestly no. Almost all instances of 10 that we are aware of are variants, not sequences. 

10 Heralds, 10 orders, 10 essences, 10 polestones. 

The only 10 I can think that has anything to do with a sequential order which could translate to the passage of time has nothing to do with Honor or Cultivation. The 10 "levels" of Voidbinding, of which we know nothing. 

Hmmmm if it is regarding sequences, could the ten planet orbits ordered sequentially away from the sun count?

edit: to add, the heralds are each ascribed a number, or a number is named after them, whichever that may be. Could the number in that case have to do with the sequential order of them agreeing to the oathpact? Are there any theories on that on the 17th shard?

Edited February 12, 2019 by Pathfinder

[insert_anagram_here]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

If that were the case, then why were shardblades ever required ten heartbeats to summon at all? 

In the beginning, everyone would have expected them to be instant, just like they were for the Radiants. 

1

I don't understand if you are placing this question as a counter argument here, but if you are it doesn't matter. Your guess is as good as mine. Finding a scenario how this could've happened doesn't make the argument 'everyone thinks they needed ten heartbeats to summon Shardblades' true. It's already true because it's in the books. Shallan thinks she needs ten heartbeats even if she didn't and Sanderson explained it. It's because of Perception.

52 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As to Honor's death playing into it, not sure how Honor dying would result in removing a limit on shardblades when his death seems to limit honorblades more.

Well, I meant that it could've been a necessisity when Honor was still alive, but after his death that restriction was removed.

*dons the special tin foil hat with that little windmill on top*

Spoiler

I always wondered why the Heralds abandoned their Honorblades. Could it be that by breaking the Oathpact, just by rejecting Honor, a significant power was lost along with the blades? Plates perhaps? Since oaths seem to be something of Honor, maybe there could've been ten Oaths (or Ideals) that held the Heralds, that needed to be said or thought in order for Honor to allow plates to materialize, maybe we just never witnessed that part of their powers. (It was called an Oathpact afterall)

Now we know that the Radiant process was copied from the Heralds and for people that were merely observing them, I'm assuming some sort of scholars that passed down that knowledge later on, they observed and concluded that 'a pause of a few heartbeats must be a prerequisite for their power to materialize' while the Heralds were waiting for their plates to materilize. So maybe that detail was recorded down at this point, maybe it was even an actual prerequisite for Radiants as well, before Honor died.

Fast forward Oathpact broken, Recreance, Hierocracy, the historical time where anything connected to the Heralds and the number ten is revered. Insidentally whatever knowledge outside the Vorin beliefs is 'lost'.

At some point we know they discovered (or maybe even re-discovered) that they could bond Dead Shardblades by using gems. How would they discover this exactly? Researching old texts and experimenting. So they found some old text saying 'a pause of a few heartbeats must be a prerequisite for their power to materialize' (even if the necessary time is just as little as whatever resticts the deadeye spren on Shadesmar). When the experiment worked, they concluded that 'heartbeats are indeed needed, and even ten, just like the Heralds themselves!' just to apply those Vorin beliefs in that text.

Far fetched, right?

6

 

[CrazyRioter]

There were likely very very few if any dead Shardblades around before Honor's death and the Recreance.

[Calderis]

@insert_anagram_here

Perception can act as a limiter, making an honorblade or a live sprenblade take 10 heartbeats when it shouldn't... But you can't make something happen that isn't possible simply because you believe it to be so. 

Saying that the ten heartbeat limit on all shardblades is because of perception is a very very different statement than saying that Shallan and Szeth's perception made something unnecessary happen. 

I've seen nothing anywhere that says that the ten heartbeat limit on shardblades in general is one of perception. 

[CrazyRioter]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@insert_anagram_here

Perception can act as a limiter, making an honorblade or a live sprenblade take 10 heartbeats when it shouldn't... But you can't make something happen that isn't possible simply because you believe it to be so. 

Saying that the ten heartbeat limit on all shardblades is because of perception is a very very different statement than saying that Shallan and Szeth's perception made something unnecessary happen. 

I've seen nothing anywhere that says that the ten heartbeat limit on shardblades in general is one of perception. 

I agree. Perception does matter in the Cosmere, more than in real life, but there are hard limits on how things work that cannot be bypassed by believing it hard enough.

Syl's comments are pretty clear that the delay is a consequence of the state of the dead spren. Admittedly, Syl is not perfectly knowledgable, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary it's best to take her comments seriously.

Edited February 13, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[deacon]

7 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No problemo, to clarify. You as well as others posited that if the need alone on part of Adolin is what resulted in Maya being summoned faster, than why not when every other shardbearer ever not experience the same thing? Surely they have been in situations of need. I, taking in that information, expanded the concept of the realms becoming closer to include this. I suggested that possibly there was a change in speed normally when great need occurs, just as the WoB says and we agree, the change would be so neglible to go unnoticed. That is why I used the example of the ice cube in a room just above freezing. The ice cube would melt, but would be so slight that it would be unable to be observed with the naked eye unless over a very long period of time. A period of time that a shardbearer in need would not have, nor have the tools at the time to measure. However, if we raise that temperature a bit more, suddenly that melting, that was there before but we just couldn't see, now is apparent. That would then jive with why Adolin was unable to shorten the time summoning in the first two instances while the realm was closer, but was able to the third time. The need potentially always reduced the time to summon, but when the realms were brought together it was just more noticeable in that case. Now to be clear, that is not my own theory. My point is again, we could potentially explain the occurrence with another mechanism.  That is how science works. You posit a theory. You then run a test that confirms the theory. I then see if I can run that test to produce the same results. If I can produce the same results by another means, or cannot reproduce the same results using your means, then the question becomes what is different. Did the test really prove your theory? Or was it due to something outside your theory that was not accounted for? 

I am previously aware of the scientific method, yep. 

My responses I think are going to overlap with things already said, but that is life in a discussion forum.

Well, the idea that there was a change of summoning speed is not based on anything. In three books, it has not been touched on and nothing we've seen or heard of in the books has suggested that the ten heartbeats can be circumvented, until Maya. 

• People's hearts beat faster when in battle and in need (dat adrenaline~), but this is not new to the function of Shardblades. This is business as usual. This is not new to the Perpendicularity. It's still ten heartbeats, even if the heart is beating faster because of adrenaline or urgent need.
• An increase in investiture does not make dead Shardblades summon faster; it has not been noted in any of the books so far. It's still always ten heartbeats. Even in the Perpendicularity, everyone else who used Shardblades summoned them in the normal 10 heartbeats, and in the Battle of Thaylen, just about everyone was in urgent need.
• If Adolin was able to summon it faster the third time because of need but no one else who was in need could do that, then it can't be because of an effect in the area.

Being aware that this is only an example guess to you, still, here's an example response.

Quote

1. Adolin forms a bond with Maya via an infused gemstone and spending a week or so with her

2. Adolin living the edgedancer qualities, acting honorably, and treating Maya with respect strengthens his Connection with her

3. This strengthened Connection allows her to over time respond more than usual, and summon sooner

4. A bondsmith (considering they can manipulate other radiant's investiture by supercharging their abilties), using the scaffolding that the increased Connection provides, supercharges the bond with investiture, regrowing what is lost, and restores Maya. 

Already, I feel it's important to note this is already mostly the main theory I see going around. A combination of Adolin living the oaths, Maya starting to stir - whatever we think exactly that means - and a non-zero amount of people think the Bondsmith abilities are going to help. I personally don't care one way or the other if Bondsmith abilities are involved somehow, just that it doesn't make sense that the Bondsmith powers are the main/only facilitator here.

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, is it possible for a spren to get more Investiture? And if it does, will it kinda level up into a higher form of spren?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah, it's possible. That is totally possible.

I think that is pretty self explanatory, but all the same I interpret that to say that an increase in investiture does have an effect on spren. That if you could theoretically feed a (by implication) lower spren more investiture and "level" it up to a higher spren, then I think it is most certainly possible to use investiture to heal what was torn out of a dead spren. But that is my own reading of it. 

That's what I meant when I said there was no detail to it, though I'd love more on this. Anyone can make any kind of guess they want because it's so broad and vague, so in my opinion, it needs further reasoning to be used in an argument. Still a very fun WoB.

Quote

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson
Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

So for the same reason for the first WoB, I feel confirming that spren are investiture does nothing to dispute my theory. If anything it supports that additional investiture could potentially heal what was ripped out of them. I would also add that in my opinion, Bondsmiths can jump the hurtle of assigned investiture. Bondsmiths can supercharge other radiants abilities, even though those are the surges of those radiants and we have been told that a radiant cannot use a surge on another radiant that is using a surge because investiture interferes with investiture. Shallan's illusions are hers, yet Dalinar can manipulate them. So too can Hoid, but we are specifically told that that is a power of the bondsmiths, so Hoid in that case is just being Hoid lol. 

Bondsmiths being used don't dispute your theory, either, because Bondsmiths can 100% affect the power of Connection. It's just that Connection is not investiture, and they work differently. Connection isn't going to follow the same rules as investiture. 

Your opinion that Bondsmiths can jump the hurtle of assigned investiture is a risky one and I don't think there's enough of a foundation there. Dalinar has affected the powers' of people he already knows - he personally has Connection with Shallan - and affecting the connection of dead Blades that never belonged to him is still completely unknown territory. We've never seen the Bondsmith powers affect a third-party relationship - ie. the kind of personal only-two-allowed-here relationship that is a Radiant and their spren/Shardbearer and their Shardblade. So while I'm saying I don't think it's ruled out, I also think there's not anything to support it, either. 

That tends to be my philosophy. It's my experience that "the lack of opposing evidence to the theory" is not the same thing as "evidence that supports the theory". Of course everyone is allowed to theorize and play in the space Brandon made, but after a lot of frustrations in the past, I am never going to support a theory whose strongest argument is just that it's possible. Otherwise, I'll never get through the gaps in between SA books.

Quote

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Nothing really needing to bold. To clarify, to me, I feel there is the faux bond, and then there is the Connection between the shardbearer and the dead spren. In my opinion the faux bond is formed when the infused gemstone is placed in the blade, and the connection is formed when they keep the blade around them non-stop during the week. If the gemstone is removed, the blade no longer can be summoned, but the bond+Connection is still present. But without the gemstone it cannot function. You cannot summon the blade. In my opinion, it is the increase of Connection that is insulating the bond further, which is why you get more out of it. In my opinion, the bond itself wasn't rebuilt, or healed. It is like taking electric wires, tying them directly together and putting some electrical tape around it. Could the tape wear away? Yep. If there was a power surge could it potentially cause a fire because of improper insulation? Yep. So you are not going to get the full effect you would have from a properly installed connection, but you might get a little more juice out of it than you would without the insulation. That is what i feel is happening with dead shardblades and Adolin. The bondsmith stepping in with the infusion of investiture, coupled with the guide of the strengthened connection would rebuild/restore what was torn out of Maya, allowing a true radiant bond to occur. So I personally do not feel those WoB disproved anything in my theory. You are of course entitled to interpret them differently, and I wish you luck with your theory!

I've already said that Connection and investiture are different. If a Bondsmith is involved, it can't be investiture. They are not the same thing and have different rules. Bondsmiths might be able to affect the Connection between Blade and bearer, but investiture wouldn't affect Connection. You'd have to ignore all the WoBs about the nature of investiture and Connection to say that investiture could be used to fix a broken Connection. To use your metaphor, that'd be like placing two broken cords (damaged Connection) next to each other, sending electricity (investiture) through both, and then saying that the cord is now whole. Connection and investiture are two different things. The Connection between the bearer and Blade IS the bond between the bearer and Blade. I've just been using them interchangeably; perhaps I assumed people reading would understand I meant they were the exact same thing.

But Bondsmiths would be involved in the future; we haven't seen a Bondsmith powers affecting Adolin and Maya's bond in the books.

[Ryu Hatsu]

Imagine the implications if she revives? I mean, what does that do to the Oathpact and the spren involvement? I personally think that she could/would make things incredibly hard for the group due to her potential trauma, but it would make for an interesting twist! I love the fact that she engaged, that changes everything. And I always root for Adolin, because you just have to, even Kal does. Hahaha

[CrazyRioter]

12 minutes ago, Ryu Hatsu said:

Imagine the implications if she revives? I mean, what does that do to the Oathpact and the spren involvement? I personally think that she could/would make things incredibly hard for the group due to her potential trauma, but it would make for an interesting twist! I love the fact that she engaged, that changes everything. And I always root for Adolin, because you just have to, even Kal does. Hahaha

I would expect her to be trying as hard as she could to be helpful for Adolin's sake if nothing else, and I would expect her to know things that would be helpful enough to outweigh any issues caused by her trauma. It'd expect issues in that regard to be interpersonal in nature.

And I think it would absolutely have a huge effect on spren relations with humans particularly if she and Adolin could find the time to travel through Shadesmar and talk to them. Admittedly, Adolin is going to have a lot of demands on his time.

[Ryu Hatsu]

6 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I would expect her to be trying as hard as she could to be helpful for Adolin's sake if nothing else, and I would expect her to know things that would be helpful enough to outweigh any issues caused by her trauma. It'd expect issues in that regard to be interpersonal in nature.

And I think it would absolutely have a huge effect on spren relations with humans particularly if she and Adolin could find the time to travel through Shadesmar and talk to them. Admittedly, Adolin is going to have a lot of demands on his time.

I couldn’t agree more. I know that there’s definitely a desire for some spren to bond, and her actions displayed this. As Syl and Pattern have both explained, they are less themselves when unbound. 

[CrazyRioter]

Just now, Ryu Hatsu said:

I couldn’t agree more. I know that there’s definitely a desire for some spren to bond, and her actions displayed this. As Syl and Pattern have both explained, they are less themselves when unbound. 

It's not that they are less themselves, they need a bond to think in the PR, and a bond also allows for some degree of change and growth beyond what is usually possible.

[insert_anagram_here]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I've seen nothing anywhere that says that the ten heartbeat limit on shardblades in general is one of perception. 

Well, I didn't say that there isn't a hard limit. It's roughly as much time as a deadeye spren would need in order to be summoned in the corresponding location in the Cognitive, of the Shardbearer in the Physical (in a normal case at least). But the fact that it has to be perceived as 'exactly ten heartbeats' could be a Vorin belief attributed later on to that discovery, coinciding roughly with the actual fact. In general, explaining natural phenomena with superstition isn't something unheard of for religions, it's part of what makes people believe them in the first place.

As CR said, there weren't many cases of Dead Shardblades pre-Recreance so that only adds strength to the possibility of a 'misunderstanding'. By the time they needed to understand how dead Shardblades worked, Radiants were already gone.

Edit: I only presented the 'Vorin misunderstanding' theory as a possible explanation as to how the perception of 'ten heartbeats need' came to be established because @Pathfinder asked. I'm not here to convince anyone of this specific theory(I've only thought it up just last night) but my point is that there could be any other reason as to how 'ten heartbeats' has become an idea as a prerequisite, even if it isn't exactly like that.

The fact that perception matters is proven both in-book and with WoBs.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis]

I find it far more likely that the ten heartbeat limit is the natural boundary, as when shardblades first became summon able for a gem bond, the only record of any kind of summoning should have been from the radiants themselves. 

And has already been covered in this thread, the distance mechanic is based off of the speed of light, so unless you and your blades spren are on different worlds the difference in summon length should be negligible. 

We know that in the event of a continuous flow pacemaker, a shard bearer would sense something other than the heartbeats, but I'm willing to bet the general time frame would be much the same. 

[insert_anagram_here]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And has already been covered in this thread, the distance mechanic is based off of the speed of light, so unless you and your blades spren are on different worlds the difference in summon length should be negligible. 

I never understood what speed of light has to do with this mechanic, so it was never even part of my argument.

Not sure what your point is with the WoB you provided, it only proves that the 'ten heartbeats' is a :

Quote

Just as blind people dream differently from people without visuals, I feel a shardbearer without a pulse would end up having another method of representing the way their soul reaches toward a dead shardblade and summons it. But it would vary based on the individual.

2

Edit: BTW I edited my previous post, not sure if you read that bit.

Edited February 13, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I never understood what speed of light has to do with this mechanic, so it was never even part of my argument.

You said this. 

30 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Well, I didn't say that there isn't a hard limit. It's roughly as much time as a deadeye spren would need in order to be summoned in the corresponding location in the Cognitive, of the Shardbearer in the Physical (in a normal case at least).

But per this WoB it's based off the speed of light. So regardless of where the spren is on Roshar, the time difference is going to be so small as to be unnoticeable. 

And the bit about the ten heartbeats being a representation... Is exactly my point. A different representation could occur and would still require a similar time frame in order to summon the spren. 

[CrazyRioter]

The vast vast majority of the summoning time is just the process of 'waking up' the dead spren just enough to summon them. The distance is irrelevant under normal circumstances.