Glys is equal parts Honour, Cultivation, and Odium

[Ixthos]

As theories go, this is one I am fairly sure about, but don't have much proof. I think that - for uncorrupted spren - Truthwatcher spren are an equal mixture of Honour and Cultivation, and that Glys has an addition of Odium's investiture equal to the other two, making Glys a unique spren - or currently unique - that represents a link to all the shards currently in the Rosharan system, and these links are interfering with each other, but can eventually be resolved to allow access to the investiture of all the shards in the system.

 

A brief bit of background to this. One thing that I had been bothered by was that Truthwatchers seem more Cultivation than Honour, being associated with plants, healing, etc. And I had wondered if perhaps they were Cultivation spren, rather than a mixture. This didn't feel right, as Surgebinding, while involving cultivating the bond, is clearly more focused on the oaths, and all the spren for surgebinding are mixtures of both Honour and Cultivation. Did that mean that Bondsmiths also are a mixture of Cultivation? I think so, especially if the Nightwatcher also is a Bondsmith's spren. But how to reconcile this with the seemingly more Cultivation orientation of Truthwatchers, Edgedancers, and Lightweavers?

I think the main way this can be reconciled - and this also seems to be the general consensus, or at least parts of it are partially agreed - is that the five orders at the top - corresponding to male heralds - are more aligned with Honour, and the five orders at the bottom - corresponding to female heralds - are more aligned with Cultivation. Or rather, they are all a mixture of Honour and Cultivation, but the bottom orders have more Cultivation added, while the top have less Cultivation. All order are - or at least I hope - a mixture of the two, but Surgebinding is still Honours system, unless it is equally Honour's and Cultivation's. Either way, I suspect that Stonewards and Windrunners have a corresponding ratio of Honour's investiture, and Cultivations, just like Skybreakers and Willshapers, which is more Cultivation than Windrunners and Stonewards, but still strongly Honour. Likewise for Elsecallers and Dustbringers, they have an equal mixture to one another, which contains more Cultivation than Skybreakers and Willshapers. And so on.

However, this does will raise two questions - where do Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers fit in, and how do their ratios correspond to the other orders? There are two possibilities, and those also fit in the two possibilities of how much Honour the bottom orders have, and how much Cultivation the top orders have.

 

The options:

• Option 1: Surgebinding is equally Honour and Cultivation, and; Bondsmiths have more Cultivation than Windrunners and Truthwatchers have more Honour than Edgedancers;
• Option 2: Surgebinding is equally Honour and Cultivation, and; Bondsmiths have more Honour than Windrunners and Truthwatchers have more Cultivation than Edgedancers;
• Option 3: Surgebinding is mainly Honour with some Cultivation, and; Bondsmiths have more Cultivation than Windrunners and Truthwatchers have more Honour than Edgedancers;
• Option 4: Surgebinding is mainly Honour with some Cultivation, and; Bondsmiths have more Honour than Windrunners and Truthwatchers have more Cultivation than Edgedancers;
• (A 5th Option - Bondsmiths actually are unique and don't fit the paradigm - we will ignore this, or factor it into the rest of the theory, which can also include Truthwatchers being unique.)

 

This theory assumes either Option 3 and 4, but also can work with the first. Lets discus this in detail first.

Option 1 assumes that the extreme end orders - those that are primarily of one shard - are Windrunners, Stonewards, Edgedancers, and Lightweavers. They are still a mixture, but Windrunners and Stonwards are mainly Honour, with a little Cultivation. Edgedancers and Lightweavers are mainly Cultivation, but with a little Honour. Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, then, are mainly Honour and Cultivation, respectively, but with a noticeable amounts of the other mixed in. Which would match the idea of Honourspren being named for Honour, and Cultivationspren for Cultivation.

A side note to this - if Windrunners and Stonewards are equally of Honour and contain the same amount of Cultivation, what makes them different? It could be that the nature of how the powers mix is important - and this is key further in the theory - which also matches many real world items, where how things are added together is just as important as the amount, or it could be that one has slightly more of Honour than the other, though this would imply adding a little bit of investiture would change them into a new spren, which I doubt. In this model, it also could be that Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are actually equally of Honour and Cultivation, only configured to better match the shard they correspond with - but this does have issues. Still, the Nightwatcher, as a Bondsmithspren, is more of Cultivation than of Honour, or at least appears to be. So perhaps how close the spren is to Honour isn't as important, or the Nightwatcher needs to be reconfigured if it wished to bond a Bondsmith.

Option 2 assumes that the extreme end orders are Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers. Bondsmiths mainly Honour, Truthwatchers mainly Cultivation. But it doesn't explain the Nightwatcher.

Option 3 assumes that there is only one extreme end of alignment to a shard, and that the bottom is actually still more Honour than the top is of Cultivation. It just assumes that the bottom most is actually the Edgedancer and Lightweaver orders.

Option 4, like option 3, assumes that, while the top order is mainly connected to one shard, the bottom is not, and has more Honour than the top order has Cultivation. This is the theory which says that Truthwatchers are equally of Honour and Cultivation.

 

There are still possible problems, though, such as why an Order which looks so clearly to be of Cultivation would in fact be just as much of Honour. The one possibility is that Honour provides a base on which the spren build - or rather, both Honour and Cultivation together form that base, with Honour forming bonds and keeping oaths, and Cultivation progressing those oaths, with the spren then adding its flavour of Honour or Cultivation to the mixture, but a mixture which - based on option 4 - is mainly that of Honour.

So, Lightweavers mainly cultivate themselves, with little "honour", except in accepting truths. Edgedancers cultivate others, mainly the outcasts. Elsecallers are more about information, which cultivates oneself, but with the potential to help others, and Dustbringers serving others - so adding in more Honour. Willshapers are builders and explorers, so still some Cultivation from the explorers, mainly on doing what one wants, but at the same time Cultivating for others, which is a form of honour, and so favouring building from scratch rather than growing from what is present, and Skybreakers cultivate society but to keep to the letter of a code. Stonewards stand firm, keeping to the form of honour that is to keep ones word, not to buckle, and so have little cultivation, while Windrunners protect, selfless but keeping to the idea of honour being a shield for society. Bondsmiths unite, and Truthwatchers heal.

The main point of this is to say that all the orders progress in their oaths in a manner that mirrors both Honour and Cultivation, while also maintaining to a form of Honour or Cultivation which matches an ideal that is more one than the other while still being a part of both.

 

So, that brings us to Glys. I think that his investiture is a perfect mixture, but one that is interfering with itself. For Surgebinding spren, the spren are a mixture of Honour and Cultivation, but which are designed to work together. For Glys, extra investiture has been added, and must be reconciled to the whole. He is connected to all three shards, and I think these connections are interfering with one another, and will continue to do so until Renarin can achieve a balance with him. Honour and Cultivation work together to form Surgebinding, whether on purpose or by accident, whether using something already present and letting it unfold naturally, or using some external force. Glys needs to gain a balance as well, and that will allow access to the full abilities of a Truthwatcher spren, and a voidbinding spren. And possibly even a third system.

 

This makes Glys special, and as my theory on the Knights Radiant having to learn to voidbind says, I think Renarin will gain access to Voidbinding for either one or all levels of Voidbinding - definitely for at least one level, and whether or not the other knights gain voidbinding through corrupted spren or a duel bond, he might gain access to all the levels of voidbinding

 

So, to summarise, Glys - and thus Renarin - are important to the system and the Cosmere because they are an equal mix of the three shards present, and thus might allow Renarin a unique access to the magic of each shard, equal to that of all future knights - a path they all must take or can choose to take or forced to take - or even more so than future knights.

[Eris]

Can I say I love you? 

I totally agree with what you say about the orders being more of honour or cultivation. Though what you say of Glys is very interesting because of the concept of Unity which seems to be a theme of the stormlight series. If glys is a mixture of the three shards and is battling with them in his form, it becomes a metaphor: allegory? for what is happening on Roshar. Therefore, your theory’s outcome does make sense and would explain a lot ....

but I’ll be honest, your beginning explanation was too clunky to understand or maybe I’m too tired to understand  (it’s 2.30am) 

[+Ark1002]

Wow. You actually spent the time to make something I've had bouncing around in the back of my head for a while, and yours is way better and more expansive then mine ever was going to be

[Ixthos]

@Eris and @Ark1002 Thanks! :-D

 

Eris, you may of course say you love me, and I reciprocate platonically :-P Also, sorry about the confusing initial part - I have a drive to order things and make them logical, to establish the groundwork of what I hope to say, but I also tend to write in a stream of consciousness, thinking of and addressing possible alternative examples or arguments preemptively. Sorry if that broke the flow - either way, thank you for reading :-)

Ark1002, good to know this is something others have been wondering about too and I wasn't just imagining things :-) Truthfully I just wanted to get this out there so I could focus on other things :-P Glad you like it!

[Eris]

@Ixthos I was on another thread and I had a thought that maybe your genius brain and superior knowledge could see if it could be possible. Do you think that spren that share surges look similar? or a somewhat related? Like a bondsmith and a honour spren are similar as least with the stormfather and honour spren. And apparently Ym's spren, a truthwatcher, had vine like features on it or something like that. Does that fit with your theory? 

[Ixthos]

@Eris I think that they do, but with a caveat - are we referring to how the spren look in Shadesmar, the physical realm, or both, and are we also talking about the lesser spren - like windspren - which resemble surgebinding spren - like Honourspren - or the surgebinding spren, or both?

 

In all cases I think there is a general similarity between spren which share a surge - the Truthwatcher spren and Cultivationspren resemble plants, which ties to the surge of Progression, but Cultivation spren lean towards plant-like crystal growth - Abrahsion, so smooth crystals - while Truthwatcher spren look like growing light, which leans towards the surge of Illumination, which they share with Cryptics, which have a shape that could resemble a ripple, being fractal - and, of course, Cryptics are next to Inkspren, associated with the idea of logic, so a mathematical base for their shape would also be implied. This also ties to the essence they are associated with, as Cultivationspren are crystal, Truthwatcher spren are plant, and Cryptics are blood, or rather, non-oil fluids, and they flow over surfaces when travelling, and their shape could be considered a ripple. And, of course, windspren and Honourspren appear like ribbons of wind, or rather, can appear as ribbons of wind. 

 

In general, I think that the physical manifestation the surgebinging spren (and the lesser spren relate to them) take resembles their essence, along with a relation to their surge, and so yes, spren of neighbouring types look similar, though leaning in different ways, kind of like how plants and crystals are similar in that they grow (Progression), and metals and stone are similar in how they are firm (Cohesion), and oils and non-oils are similar in that they flow (Transformation) :-)

 

I posed a topic a while back covering some of this, see here, though be aware it is a long post, and the area of interest is in the spoilered section, mainly covered in the bolded sections below each of the surges and their descriptions.

[Calderis]

Here's how I see it. 

Surgebinding is Honor's system, intended to be accessed through the honorblades. 

The orders themselves are a hack of that system devised by the spren, after all Tanavast himself says that the Radiants were a surprise. The Nahel spren are all a mixture, with Bondsmiths being closest to Honor (at least in the case of the Stormfather. I think the individual nature of bondsmith spren make this inconsistent), while Truthwatchers are closest to Cultivation. 

This has no more bearing on Surgebinding being Honors system than the Fused accessing that same system through a hack that runs on both access and Fuel via Odium. 

I think that Truthwatcher spren are skewed towards Cultivation. Not equal. 

[Ixthos]

@Calderis I wouldn't be surprised if you are right, but I think that it is more likely that surgebinding is mainly Honour, and the surges accessed then depending on how much like Honour or how much like Cultivation a spren is, and so the substrate that is the bond makes Truthwatcher spren have more Honour in them than might otherwise be implied.

 

I think it is important to formalise this particular part of what you have said - that there is a difference between the surges, and surgebinding.

Are the surges an actual property of the Cosmere - that is, a physical reality, a law that applies to the physical, cognitive, and spiritual - or a perception of physical reality, something which is grounded in the Cosmere through Roshar, and applies to other worlds only in the context of a cognitive construct accessed offworld via the spiritual, a way of accessing physical laws to achieve particular results. As Brandon implies here, it is the former, but I suspect it is more of a mixture of the two, as the cognitive can impact the spiritual and physical in the Cosmere, and so is the former because of the latter. Either way, there is something very important in that quote. The pertinent extract bolded, and key points within that underlined:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Gravity, as a fundamental law, is a surge, or became a surge - that is, something which can be accessed magically as a fundamental force - because it is perceived to be one. Surgebinding allows access to the surges, and the Fused have access to the surges, but surgebinding is of both Honour and Cultivation. The surge of gravitation isn't Honour, but Windrunners accessing the surge of gravitation do so through Surgebinding, which is of Honour. And of Cultivation.

 

Now, lets focus on this part - if you described Surgebinding, but not the Surges, how would you describe it, and based just on that description, which shard do you think it applies to, or which shards does it connect to, and which more strongly? I think a complete and accurate summary of Surgebinding is: 

1. forming a bond to a spren (initiated by the spren),
2. making progressive oaths,
3. keeping those oaths, and; 
4. through making and keeping those oaths cultivating the bond.

Of those four points, all four tie to Honour, and the second and fourth tie to both Honour and Cultivation.

Honour made the Honourblades, which access the surges, but do they count as surgebinding? Just because they access paired surges, which I think there is a quote how the pairing is natural, doesn't make them surgebinding, any more or less than the Fused accessing individual surges makes the Fused surgebinding.

I think that Surgebinding - and not just Surgebinding, but also the bond - is a substrate the knights and their spren have access to, and the type of spren, based on their composition and personal belief, alter that substrate, but that substrate is still naturally primarily Honour. Maybe Truthwatcher spren are naturally entirely Cultivation, but once they start to form a bond they combine with parts of Honour spiritually, forming the bond and cultivating it like any other surgebinding spren.

 

Now, I have a theory about how the Fused access to the surges - in short, it is a single type of Voidbinding, each fused only able to use it in a limited way, the same type - though in this case, expanded, that Amaram had when bonding to Yelig-nar, just as I think that the Midnight Essences - or rather, forming them - is another type of voidbinding, and so forth. And I agree that there is a difference between surges and surgebinding, and, simply mentioning Ashyn, I think we will be seeing more unique access to surges from other stories. But I believe surgebinding to be mainly Honour, while still being of Cultivation as well, but to a lesser extent.

 

[Edit] Also, this link about how the original knights radiant were more Honour, 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Ixthos

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

• forming a bond to a spren (initiated by the spren),
• making progressive oaths,
• keeping those oaths, and; 
• through making and keeping those oaths cultivating the bond.

And herein lies the problem. The Nahel bond grants access to Surgebinding, but it is not Surgebinding. The Honorblades also grant Surgebinding, and as I have said repeatedly elsewhere I also think that the Fused are Surgebinding. Neither of these things involve spren or oaths or development. 

The things you say are true of the Nahel Bond, but the bond is not Surgebinding. Surgebinding is manipulation of the Surges in the forms that we are familiar with. 

Voidbinding also uses the Surges per the Voidbinding chart in the back of tWoK. Same Surges, different system, and I absolutely think that's what Renarin's "windows" are. Voidbindings Illumination. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Calderis

[Ixthos]

@Calderis I don't have a copy of Oathbringer open at the moment, so I can't quote the passage, but do you remember the scene where Yelig-nar was mentioned as giving access to the surges? I think - and this needs to be checked, and I also agree it isn't definitive either way, as it is based on what the characters think - that it is described as giving access to the surges, not surgebinding. Do fabrials use surges or surgebinding?

 

I don't want to mention other Cosmere stories at the moment - this is in the Stormlight section - but to make reference to a story that hasn't been finished yet:

Spoiler

The floating cities on Ashyn - which are also inverted, or at least each side gravity points to the city - likely uses gravity, possibly in the form of a surge.

 

Now, whether or not the above example is using the surge of gravity, or affecting the fundamental force without that filter, the quote above notes, gravity isn't Honours, just how it is accessed. I see where you are coming from, that surgebinding gives us the familar form of using gravity, but how do you differentiate the surge of gravity from surgebinding?

 

Also, the voidbinding picture doesn't use the symbols for the surges - it has rotational symmetry. Those are not "surges", they are "voids", and I suspect they do match the surges, but are not them. I think, for example, that it is more accurate to say it is the void of illumination that is used to see the future, or perhaps to communicate through mirrors.

 

Surgebinding is how you access the surges, through bonds, as the quote notes, it is through the lens of Honour and Cultivation. The bond is of Honour, so clearly it forms a bond based on Honour with the spren and the knight. I doubt an Unmade can use that same channel to grant the surges, but I think it is implied, both by the quote and by the fact that the Unmame grant voidbinding - or can grant it - that it can grant surges through one of the voids.

 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Ixthos

[Calderis]

@Ixthos and I think that Rosharans would refer to any magic as Surges, the same way the refer to all sentient splinters as spren.

The Surges in the voidbinding chart are the exact same Surges altered to have rotational symmetry. Same surge, different expression. 

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Surgebinding is how you access the surges, through bonds, as the quote notes, it is through the lens of Honour and Cultivation. The bond is of Honour, so clearly it forms a bond based on Honour with the spren and the knight. I doubt an Unmade can use that same channel to grant the surges, but I think it is implied, both by the quote and by the fact that the Unmame grant voidbinding - or can grant it - that it can grant surges through one of the voids.

It wouldn't be the same. Just as the spren and the honorblades or, if I'm correct, the Fused access them in the same way. But it's still the same expression. Whereas Renarin's Illumination is very different. 

I think, so far, Renarin is the only voidbinding we've seen at all. 

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Do fabrials use surges or surgebinding?

They use Surges to mimic Surgebinding. Just as the could use the same Surges to mimic Voidbinding. 

Quote

Questioner

Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

source

I also think that it could manipulate gravity in ways that neither of them. Do on their own. The Chasmfiends gemhearts are basically organic fabrials doing their own thing. 

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Now, whether or not the above example is using the surge of gravity, or affecting the fundamental force without that filter, the quote above notes, gravity isn't Honours, just how it is accessed. I see where you are coming from, that surgebinding gives us the familar form of using gravity, but how do you differentiate the surge of gravity from surgebinding?

The "surge of Gravitation" is any manipulation of gravity, at least in the way that I think that Rosharans would describe it. Surgebindings use if Gravitation is anything Kaladin and Szeth do using Surgebinding. 

Voidbindings manipulation of that surge has, again in my opinion, yet to be seen. 

Mistborn spoilers. 

Spoiler

Brandon says that Roshar has three main magic systems. Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and Fabrials. 

I think that these should be as different as the three Metallic Arts. Allomancy and Feruchemy use the same metals, with different expressions, just as I think Surgebinding and Voidbinding use the Surges differently. 

Hemalurgy seemingly grants the same powers as the others, but Hemalurgy isn't actually the powers themselves, it's the theft. It's most akin to the mimicry of Fabrials in this. 

Different systems function differently. If it appears to be the same system. Mechanically, it's most likely the same system. 

 

[Eris]

6 hours ago, Ixthos said:

@Eris I think that they do, but with a caveat - are we referring to how the spren look in Shadesmar, the physical realm, or both, and are we also talking about the lesser spren - like windspren - which resemble surgebinding spren - like Honourspren - or the surgebinding spren, or both?

 

In all cases I think there is a general similarity between spren which share a surge - the Truthwatcher spren and Cultivationspren resemble plants, which ties to the surge of Progression, but Cultivation spren lean towards plant-like crystal growth - Abrahsion, so smooth crystals - while Truthwatcher spren look like growing light, which leans towards the surge of Illumination, which they share with Cryptics, which have a shape that could resemble a ripple, being fractal - and, of course, Cryptics are next to Inkspren, associated with the idea of logic, so a mathematical base for their shape would also be implied. This also ties to the essence they are associated with, as Cultivationspren are crystal, Truthwatcher spren are plant, and Cryptics are blood, or rather, non-oil fluids, and they flow over surfaces when travelling, and their shape could be considered a ripple. And, of course, windspren and Honourspren appear like ribbons of wind, or rather, can appear as ribbons of wind. 

 

In general, I think that the physical manifestation the surgebinging spren (and the lesser spren relate to them) take resembles their essence, along with a relation to their surge, and so yes, spren of neighbouring types look similar, though leaning in different ways, kind of like how plants and crystals are similar in that they grow (Progression), and metals and stone are similar in how they are firm (Cohesion), and oils and non-oils are similar in that they flow (Transformation) :-)

 

I posed a topic a while back covering some of this, see here, though be aware it is a long post, and the area of interest is in the spoilered section, mainly covered in the bolded sections below each of the surges and their descriptions.

You are a very intelligent person and I'll look at your thread you posted a link to because I only noticed that when I was on my own thread discussing truthwatcher spren. You post very interesting topics. Keep up the good work. 

[Ixthos]

On 1/2/2019 at 1:24 AM, Calderis said:

@Ixthos and I think that Rosharans would refer to any magic as Surges, the same way the refer to all sentient splinters as spren.

I see where you are coming from, but remember they also have the old magic, called magic, they don't say the shardblades - which I think they believe are divine, just as the powers are divine - are using surges. I think they think of the surges as a natural part of reality - a natural set of forces - and that anything which isn't a surge is magic. So far, they haven't encountered anything other than the Old Magic which could be called magic by them, or they knew to be magic, like Azure's abilities.

 

A few parts of your quote I am going to shift to the end of this, as they all touch on an idea I want to address near the end of this.

 

Quote

It wouldn't be the same. Just as the spren and the honorblades or, if I'm correct, the Fused access them in the same way. But it's still the same expression. Whereas Renarin's Illumination is very different. 

I think, so far, Renarin is the only voidbinding we've seen at all. 

[...]

Voidbindings manipulation of that surge has, again in my opinion, yet to be seen. 

Maybe you are right, and if Brandon has said that voidbinding hasn't shown up yet my argument might be wrong - but I don't think he has said it hasn't shown up. I think Unmade voidbind all their powers, and the surges are different from voids, and Fused use a void to access a surge. Until we learn more, it will be difficult to make a fully solid argument, as much of this is speculation. And I appreciate your arguments on this, I just disagree with them, as you disagree with this one.

 

Quote

They use Surges to mimic Surgebinding. Just as the could use the same Surges to mimic Voidbinding. 

This isn't what Brandon said, he was answering the question, he didn't propose the term "surge of voidbinding", and the questioner actually changed what they said when speaking - they actually backed up and said stages. Fabrials can mimic surgebinding, but that doesn't mean they are surgebinding, only using the surges. In world, has anyone said the Fabrials are surgebinding, or rather do they say, are using a surge?

 

Quote

[...]

The Surges in the voidbinding chart are the exact same Surges altered to have rotational symmetry. Same surge, different expression. 

[...]

I also think that it could manipulate gravity in ways that neither of them. Do on their own. The Chasmfiends gemhearts are basically organic fabrials doing their own thing. 

[...]

The "surge of Gravitation" is any manipulation of gravity, at least in the way that I think that Rosharans would describe it. Surgebindings use if Gravitation is anything Kaladin and Szeth do using Surgebinding. 

[...]

Mistborn spoilers.

 

Spoiler

I disagree with this analogy for the reason of powers - while pewter stores strength in Feruchemy, and senses for tin, and similarly pewter when burnt provides physical enhancement in Allomancy and tin enhances all of an allomancers senses, it is in general incorrect to say that an Allomancer using a metal is the equivalent of a Feruchemist using that metal, or a spike made from that metal. All the physical metals are used for physical things in all three, all mental metals are mental in all three (aside from warmth), and all enhancement metals seem to apply to spiritual, but hybrid and temportal are different rules. Iron when used allows for pulling on metal, and it probably applies to a similar ability to adjust how much the ground pulls on a feruchemist (simplifying this, true), and maybe human strength ties to that same structure, but one doesn't say that it is the "surge of iron" used in all three, if you will forgive my mixing of Rosharan terms in. Rather, I think that the pattern in iron can be used by allomancers to form a connection to Preservation, and that same connection can be used to store weight, but can also be used to store human strength. Human strength doesn't match the ability to pull on metal.

 

Basically, you don't say "I used iron", and expect people to know what you meant. You say "I used Feruchemical iron", or "Allomantic iron", or "Hemalurgic iron".

Going back to Roshar, If, for example, the surge of division can be used to burn something, and the surge of division - using your terms - can be voidbound to make objects invisible because it divides light striking it, is it still a surge? Rather, I would argue, it is a similar concept - dividing something - but used differently, and not accessible to someone who has complete control of the surge, any more than someone with complete control of the surge of division when used in voidbinding could use it to burn something - see below.

I think we might be using different terms here, maybe we mean the same thing or have the same idea but are describing them differently - I see there as being voids that match surges. Surgebinding binds surges. Voidbinding would not affect surges, but rather their void equivalents. I see it like if someone could control electrons, does that mean they could control positrons? Are electrons positrons? Avoiding the idea of positrons and electrons being the same thing moving backwards in time, I would say no - they are similar, can do similar things, but also are opposites, and things behave inversely. Or, if someone could sense white holes, and someone else could also sense black holes, is that the same thing?

 

Lets quickly make up a magic: "I grant you the Sense of Love!" "I grant you the Sense of Fear!" "I grant you the Projection of Love!". Love can be both Sensed and Projected. Sense can apply to both Love and Fear. You don't use the Sense of Love to Project Love, you use the Projection of Love, with Love having two parts.

 

Perhaps this is semantics, but to summarise what I see as the difference: If Kaladin could control gravity completely, do anything with the surge of gravity that gravity can do, would he be able to voidbind gravity, or would voidbound gravity do something unrelated to physical or spiritual? Is voidbound gravity actually something which doesn't produce a gravitational effect, but rather a force similar to gravity but distinct from it?

Maybe we mean the same thing, but I think surges and voids are paired, are part of the same whole (that is, gravity is both a surge and a void, and the surge of gravity is only part of gravity), and Voidbinding is binding the void corresponding to gravity, rather than the surge corresponding to gravity. When someone says gravity, it could mean surge or void. The life on Roshar can use the surge of gravity to decrease their weight, but none can use the void of gravity. Surges are an expression of the forces, and voids are a different expression.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Ixthos
Clarified a sentence, and changed "fear" to "love"

[Calderis]

@Ixthos

Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

No, you wouldn't say "I used iron" because there is a need to differentiate between the different systems which all use the same metals. Because Metal is Scadrial's magical focus. 

I believe, mainly because of the voidbinding charts altered expression of the Surges, that the Surges themselves are Roshar's focus. Just as the Foci for Nalthis and Sel are Commands and Forms respectively. 

Multiple systems using the same focus should function similarly but different. Tin is a prime example. Allomantically enhances senses. Stores senses. Steals senses. Same focus, three different systems, three similar yet very different expressions. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. But in case you haven't seen it, I've argued quite adamantly that... 

 

[Ixthos]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Ixthos

Mistborn Spoilers

  Hide contents

No, you wouldn't say "I used iron" because there is a need to differentiate between the different systems which all use the same metals. Because Metal is Scadrial's magical focus. 

I believe, mainly because of the voidbinding charts altered expression of the Surges, that the Surges themselves are Roshar's focus. Just as the Foci for Nalthis and Sel are Commands and Forms respectively. 

Multiple systems using the same focus should function similarly but different. Tin is a prime example. Allomantically enhances senses. Stores senses. Steals senses. Same focus, three different systems, three similar yet very different expressions. 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. But in case you haven't seen it, I've argued quite adamantly that... 

 

 

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

For the iron example, that is my point. In real world terms, a surge is the exact opposite of a void - if someone made gravity increase, even if it was to make a pull exactly counter to the current direction the field is pulling, it would be a surge. A void paints a different picture, and might do something unrelated. You could argue that f-iron and a-iron use similar principles, but you agree you need to say which power is used. Surge-binding binds surges. Void-binding binds voids. And as I noted in the previous reply, while some metals match, others don't. Tin is an example which works, true, but Atium or Iron don't.

I don't know if surges are focii - I still think that focii are not as universal as might be assumed (Warbreaker spoilers)

Spoiler

Vashar using a part of his own body and calling it a focus in the first part, while Brandon later - unless I am mistake - later agrees that commands are the focus makes me think that it isn't as clear as might be assumed, and Brandon has said a lot is speculation characters have about the systems and rules they try to apply.

But I think that my "love, fear, sense, project" example still works. I think we are talking about the same thing, but using different terms.

 

Also, this might surprise you, but I agree that the Fused aren't "voidbinding". Or rather, they aren't using "void surges", but rather a single voidbinding to access the surges - the Unmade grant voidbinding, not as the only source, but they grant it, and one of them grants access to the surges. I think they are using a void to access surges, not using voids as powers themselves. (Mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

Much like Inquisitors using Feruchemy, it is using one system to access the powers of another. Only, unlike Hemalurgy, instead of gaining the system, they are gaining the power, like a Feruchemist who can store weight, but instead of having to store it in metal, they can actually just choose to be lighter or heavier. They don't need to use the same restrictions, like keeping oaths, or using stormlight, they can just use the power, but without having as large a burst as is possible with stormlight.

 

[Edit] A quick search showed the Unmade granted "Surges", but no surgebinding. I can't find anything addressing anyone other than Knights having Surgebinding, but have found references to others using surges. I could be wrong, but it seems that Surges are distinct from Surgebinding.

[Edit 2] It looks like they call the Fused enemy surgebinders, though again this doesn't mean they are correct, as mistborn showed, characters can make mistaken conclusions.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Ixthos

[Watchcry]

If Renarin ends up being the last POV book I can see him uniting these three shards. Or at least offering access to them to others. 

[Eris]

Just now, Watchcry said:

If Renarin ends up being the last POV book I can see him uniting these three shards. Or at least offering access to them to others. 

He's not or at least for not he's not but I like that point. Maybe his massive role in the books will be to unite the three shards?

[Watchcry]

1 minute ago, Eris said:

He's not or at least for not he's not but I like that point. Maybe his massive role in the books will be to unite the three shards?

Yes, he's not now but that can change at any time when Brandon focuses on the last five book outline. 

[Ixthos]

@Eris and @Watchcry I actually think Renarin might be hinted at becoming a shard - I hope Brandon doesn't mean this, but Renarin's name is similar to the Holy Name of God.

 

I think that the three shards in the system are going to combine at least in part into a new shard with ten people holding it - but Cultivation might not fully be lost, and Nightblood might become Odium eventually, but I think at least a few parts of them will become part of a new shard held by ten former Knights and their spren, and Renarin would be a member.

 

Also, as I was thinking on this, it occurred to me that the left orders - Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers - are rather selfish orders in a sense, focused more on themselves, while the right orders - Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, and Edgedancers - are more people focused, and the two middle orders are possibly both. There might be more Odium in Surgebinding than I thought, the left orders having it, but only hints - Brandon did say there was some Odium, and I hadn't considered that when making this theory ...

[Watchcry]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

@Eris and @Watchcry I actually think Renarin might be hinted at becoming a shard - I hope Brandon doesn't mean this, but Renarin's name is similar to the Holy Name of God.

 

I think that the three shards in the system are going to combine at least in part into a new shard with ten people holding it - but Cultivation might not fully be lost, and Nightblood might become Odium eventually, but I think at least a few parts of them will become part of a new shard held by ten former Knights and their spren, and Renarin would be a member.

 

Also, as I was thinking on this, it occurred to me that the left orders - Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers - are rather selfish orders in a sense, focused more on themselves, while the right orders - Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, and Edgedancers - are more people focused, and the two middle orders are possibly both. There might be more Odium in Surgebinding than I thought, the left orders having it, but only hints - Brandon did say there was some Odium, and I hadn't considered that when making this theory ...

1.  Is there any history on multiple people possessing a Shard at once?

2.  Can a sword even be a Shard holder?

[Ixthos]

37 minutes ago, Watchcry said:

1.  Is there any history on multiple people possessing a Shard at once?

2.  Can a sword even be a Shard holder?

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

For number one, there are hints that Bavadin is doing something similar, with the multiple personalities each having access while being distinct, and there is still the question of what happens to a spren it its knight took a shard - would the spren dissolve or become a fellow member holding the shard?

For number two, there is a case of one person holding two shards, a cognitive shadow holding a shard, and shards being forced into the cognitive realm. There are edge cases and unique examples all through the Cosmere - an artificial spren holding a shard isn't impossible, though isn't the only possible case.

 

[Eris]

I really hope not because becoming a shard doesn't usually end well ;-;