recreance reader reactions (spoilers)

[Braizier]

So I saw a lot of theories about the cause behind the recreance, but none of them seemed to come close to the truth revealed in oathbringer: that proto radients/ bonded humans/ dawnshard users destroyed their planet. I’m curious what the communities thoughts on this reveal are. 

[Winds Alight she/her]

I mostly wondered (and still do) what exactly the mechanics of this were. How exactly did Surgebinding affect the environment? Was it misuse (like air pollution, nuclear weapons) or something more fundamental, like Surgebinding in itself disturbing the balance of the planet?
Which Surge caused what kind of damage? Are all equally bad?
Is there a way to do this without destroying the planet or should Surgebinding not be used at all?

[Ripheus23]

A maybe-relevant WoB:

Quote

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine [PENDING REVIEW]

So were the Dawncities, the ones based on cymatic patterns, created using a supercharged combinations of the surges of cohesion and illumination?Using cohesion to make the ground liquid and using illumination to create the frequency.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

You are theorizing in the right direction.

source

I think the Dawnshards are Cultivation's equivalent of the Honorblades. We've been told that Soulcasters come from Aimia, which gives off a Cultivation-y vibe to my mind, so I would suggest a pairing like [Honorblades - Shardblades :: Dawnshards - Soulcasters], possibly.

[Braizier]

Love it. Super soul casters. Although if the dawn shards were what destroyed braize and cultivation was based on Roshar that complicates the theory. 

Edited December 25, 2018 by Braizier

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I´m pretty sure the community figured that out before OB. When I read that part of OB, I mostly thought: "didn´t we already know that the Radiants destroyed stuff?". So I think that theorizing and WoBs kinda spoiled the reveal for me. I was a bit disappointed actually. I also don´t see why the KR all of a sudden decided to kill their spren and abandon their oath because of this. There is probably something more, something that we are not aware of. 

I am also pretty sure that a lot of community reactions were somewhat negative to this twist, when the book came out. I have no clue as to what the general opinion might be now though.

[Braizier]

I had been avoiding WoB and forums before OB so it was still new to me, but I agree something is clearly missing. 

WoK already well established that human nature doesn’t destroy things it can use. Just becaue nukes COULD destroy our planet doesn’t mean people IRL went out and immediately murdered all their physicist friends.

 

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

A bunch of Windrunners could have gone full Lord Ruler and Lashed the Ashyn towards the sun for some reason, as an example. Brandon has somewhere mentioned the Lightweavers discovering lasers. We don't even really know that much about Division (except that its molecular and not atomic), but I'm sure there are some crazy things you can do with that too. The surges are forces of nature and TLR showed us how wrong things can go when you mess with them and you don't know what you're doing. The people of Ashyn didn't even have a Shard or spren to guide them

[Blessed peace he/him]

3 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

The people of Ashyn didn't even have a Shard or spren to guide them

They had Odium with them, think of a society ruled by hatred. Now give them Nukes and lasers, and no check on their powers.

What do you get? 

Ash...

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

I mean the understanding granted by holding a Shard, like TLR did

[Calderis he/him]

The reveal still seems like it was only a partial reveal in my opinion. 

The recreance was fueled by information that had been "discovered" multiple times in the past, only this time Honor raved about them destroying Roshar instead of providing moral support. 

Even then, I think they would have held out... But then they lobotomized a species and cemented their view of themselves as the monsters Honor had just promised that they were. 

When the spren encouraged the recreance, as I belive they did, well... Hard not to agree things have to stop. 

There's a lot of discussion about it in this thread. 

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Personally, I think the reveal in OB was just a part of the picture. When you have Honor raving at all the Radiants that they will destroy Roshar, just like they did Ashyn, and the Radiants discover proof of their abilities, plus the lobotomization of most of the (though the Radiants would’ve assumed the entire) Singer population, who were the original inhabitants of Roshar, I think many people would be would be pretty sure that the Radiants could easily destroy the planet. Plus, there were already divisions amongst the Radiants, so it wouldn’t be too long before they started fighting each other and caused tons of damage. And as far as they knew, after the False Desolation and imprisonment of BAM, they could’ve figured that there would be no reason for them to stay and fight anymore since their enemy couldn’t even fight back. 

The one thing I don’t think happened is the spren being in on it. I know a lot of the spren from that time were killed in the Recreance, but you would think that they would tell the spren that were not bonded to Radiants at the time, and that those spren would tell the other spren that it had been the spren’s decision, not just the Radiants’.

[Braizier]

22 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Personally, I think the reveal in OB was just a part of the picture. When you have Honor raving at all the Radiants that they will destroy Roshar, just like they did Ashyn, and the Radiants discover proof of their abilities, plus the lobotomization of most of the (though the Radiants would’ve assumed the entire) Singer population, who were the original inhabitants of Roshar, I think many people would be would be pretty sure that the Radiants could easily destroy the planet. Plus, there were already divisions amongst the Radiants, so it wouldn’t be too long before they started fighting each other and caused tons of damage. And as far as they knew, after the False Desolation and imprisonment of BAM, they could’ve figured that there would be no reason for them to stay and fight anymore since their enemy couldn’t even fight back. 

The one thing I don’t think happened is the spren being in on it. I know a lot of the spren from that time were killed in the Recreance, but you would think that they would tell the spren that were not bonded to Radiants at the time, and that those spren would tell the other spren that it had been the spren’s decision, not just the Radiants’.

Interesting that you pointed out the radients infighting. Without honor to guide them and no external threat left to protect against they would have had little choice but to turn on each other. Perhaps eventually there would have been a war between radients with disasterious world ending conciquences 

[Calderis he/him]

40 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

The one thing I don’t think happened is the spren being in on it. I know a lot of the spren from that time were killed in the Recreance, but you would think that they would tell the spren that were not bonded to Radiants at the time, and that those spren would tell the other spren that it had been the spren’s decision, not just the Radiants’.

They had to at least have known. There is absolutely no way that you coordinate thousands of Radiants all abandoning their oaths together and keep that a secret from the spren. They are literally omnipresent near that many radiants. 

They knew. And the secrecy, at least to me, means they agreed. The current attitude of distrust towards humans, and the idea that them breaking their oaths is an inevitability is precisely what was intended. Prevent more bonds, and with them world shattering powers, from ever forming. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

They had to at least have known. There is absolutely no way that you coordinate thousands of Radiants all abandoning their oaths together and keep that a secret from the spren. They are literally omnipresent near that many radiants. 

They knew. And the secrecy, at least to me, means they agreed. The current attitude of distrust towards humans, and the idea that them breaking their oaths is an inevitability is precisely what was intended. Prevent more bonds, and with them world shattering powers, from ever forming. 

I’m not saying that they didn’t know. Obviously, with thousands of Radiants all planning on breaking their oaths, the spren would’ve been aware. My point was that I don’t think the spren agreed with the Radiants’ decision to break their oaths. Spark’s whole point of getting revenge wouldn’t make much sense if she was faking hating the humans for what they did like all the other spren.

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I’m not saying that they didn’t know. Obviously, with thousands of Radiants all planning on breaking their oaths, the spren would’ve been aware. My point was that I don’t think the spren agreed with the Radiants’ decision to break their oaths. Spark’s whole point of getting revenge wouldn’t make much sense if she was faking hating the humans for what they did like all the other spren.

It would though. So long as the spren didn't tell those unbonded that it was going to happen. 

Spark wasn't bonded during the recreance, or she'd be a deadeye. She doesn't know why the radiants abandoned their oaths any more than any other current Spren. 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It would though. So long as the spren didn't tell those unbonded that it was going to happen. 

Spark wasn't bonded during the recreance, or she'd be a deadeye. She doesn't know why the radiants abandoned their oaths any more than any other current Spren. 

My point is that I think the bonded spren would have told the unbonded spren what was going on if they were in on it. 

Plus, I find it highly unlikely that none of the bonded spren wouldn’t have accidentally slipped up and mentioned the plan to someone.

[Braizier]

@Calderis

What about the storm father? Surely they would have told HIM about their intent. He’s still around and legitimately pissed. Could he really have fortgotten everything? And if so wouldn’t that mean all the spren are just ASSUMING they were betrayed? It’s either a horrible lie, or spren are jumping to conclusions. 

[Jace21 he/him]

26 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I’m not saying that they didn’t know. Obviously, with thousands of Radiants all planning on breaking their oaths, the spren would’ve been aware. 

 

3 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

My point is that I think the bonded spren would have told the unbonded spren what was going on if they were in on it. 

These don't both work. You say the pre-recreance spren must have known, that the post-recreance spren didn't know but also that the pre-recreance spren would have spread the word had they known. At least one of those things you believe doesn't fit.

 

6 minutes ago, Braizier said:

@Calderis

What about the storm father? Surely they would have told HIM about their intent. He’s still around and legitimately pissed. Could he really have fortgotten everything? And if so wouldn’t that mean all the spren are just ASSUMING they were betrayed? It’s either a horrible lie, or spren are jumping to conclusions. 

Why should they have told the Stormfather? If they chose to keep it secret from everyone, as @Calderis suggests, they could just not tell him too.

But unless the Radiants somehow kept their plans to mass-oathbreak from their ever-present Spren, which seems unlikely, then the Spren knew. And unless out of  the thousands of Spren that knew, not one of them could persuade their radiant not to kill their best friend, then they were in on it.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

3 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

These don't both work. You say the pre-recreance spren must have known, that the post-recreance spren didn't know but also that the pre-recreance spren would have spread the word had they known. At least one of those things you believe doesn't fit.

I don’t see how both don’t work, though maybe I was unclear in my phrasing. 

What I think is that the bonded spren, if they had known what the Radiants were planning, would have been unable to keep that information hidden from the unbonded spren. That’s simply the nature of a secret: the more people who know about it, the more likely that someone is going to leak that information. 

Then, extrapolating from that premise, I think it’s unlikely that the unbonded spren and any new spren would behave as they do now if they knew that the bonded spren were aware of and/or planned for the Radiants to break their oaths. 

Does that help?

[Dalakaar he/him]

Just as an aside remember Kaladin mentions that he believes the Recreance didn’t happen all at once but more of a slow crumbling of the foundation of confidence in the Radiants. And he continues to explain that the power is derived from that confidence in their oaths. Not anything solid or stable, just chaotic human will/belief/confidence. Dalinar’s vision was created. Might not have been the literal truth.

(Not aimed at anyone in particular just something to note that might have impact). 

[Braizier]

 

5 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

 

These don't both work. You say the pre-recreance spren must have known, that the post-recreance spren didn't know but also that the pre-recreance spren would have spread the word had they known. At least one of those things you believe doesn't fit.

 

Why should they have told the Stormfather? If they chose to keep it secret from everyone, as @Calderis suggests, they could just not tell him too.

But unless the Radiants somehow kept their plans to mass-oathbreak from their ever-present Spren, which seems unlikely, then the Spren knew. And unless out of  the thousands of Spren that knew, not one of them could persuade their radiant not to kill their best friend, then they were in on it.

 

But some of them DID convince their friends it seems, as the Skybreakers never did betray their spren. You say it’s implausible for the decision to be so uniform without a consperacy, but I posit it isn’t uniform, it’s simply fractured on an order to order basis. Perhaps the ash spren were killed kicking and screaming, while the honor spren went willingly, and the high spren just shrugged and kept going. 

[Braizier]

2 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

Just as an aside remember Kaladin mentions that he believes the Recreance didn’t happen all at once but more of a slow crumbling of the foundation of confidence in the Radiants. And he continues to explain that the power is derived from that confidence in their oaths. Not anything solid or stable, just chaotic human will/belief/confidence. Dalinar’s vision was created. Might not have been the literal truth.

(Not aimed at anyone in particular just something to note that might have impact). 

He did say “these were the first” not “this is when it happened” 

[Calderis he/him]

The Stormfather knew. That doesn't mean he shared it. He was most likely bonded at the time seeing as pattern says he "survived." 

I don't see any way that the current spren can be as in the dark as they currently are unless the spren were complicit. After all... 

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Extesian

Simple, harmless, totally non-contro one. Can a spren unilaterally sever a Nahel bond (i.e. where the Radiant doesn't agree and hasn't technically, according to spren and Radiant, broken an oath)?

Brandon Sanderson

Yup, no controversy here at all.

This is possible. But I'm not going to go into the mechanics.

source

If the spren disagreed and didn't want the Recreance to happen, they could have just left. 

[ScavellTane]

Perhaps its Sja-Anats ability to corrupt spren and B.A.Ms abrupt change that percipitated the drastic measure seeing as they fear voidbinding.

[Dalakaar he/him]

2 hours ago, Braizier said:

He did say “these were the first” not “this is when it happened” 

Interesting, I didn't remember that.

***

On a whole different level something this talk about the Recreance has drudged up in my brain, is the sheer import a spren takes on itself when deciding who to bond with. If confidence in your oaths is really the only "check and balance" on your surge limitations then the person the spren bonds, well, that choice is of singular import.

That then makes me ponder about the spren deciding, and how they decide. On top of that, another thought going through my head is the location the spren choose. Are spren being attracted to a specific type of person, and does the fact that Odium has sway over certain areas more than others have any impact on the spren's decision.

For instance, if I was an honorspren looking for a worthy candidate I'd probably avoid Kholinar now, whereas Urithiru seems like a pretty good place to bond.

Or perhaps they aren't even taking locale into consideration given they are primarily (or completely?) cognitive beings.