Elhokar [Oathbringer Spoilers!]

[Mailnaise she/her]

K so hopefully nobody else has talked about this, (I'm not about to go looking through all of the posts about Elhokar in OB), because I don't want to look stupid. 

Anyways, I read the Stormlight Archive for the first time this last summer, and after reading all of Brandon's cosmere works, (+Skyward, Rithmatist, etc.), I decided to re-read Stormlight to better participate on here.  While reading today, I found this, said by Elhokar...

Quote

"We go to war for years and years, never noticing the real villains, working quietly in my own camp. They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman..." (page 826 in hardcover WoK)

That description sounds an awful lot like pattern when Shallan first sees him in her drawings...If I'm right it means even before Elhokar starting to speak the oaths in OB, (even before any stuff with Wit or whatever that was I don't remember), we had foreshadowing/evidence in PART 4 of WoK, that Elhokar could become a Lightweaver. 

I really hope no one else has found this and I'm not waaaaaaaay late. 

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

Gaz sees them too. In his viewpoint scenes in WoK he's always glancing at things out of the corner of his eyes just like Elhokar does. Also, the presence of Syl (not Kaladin himself as Elhokar thinks) drives off the Cryptic(s) and Elhokar stops hearing the Cryptic voices

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, Mailnaise said:

K so hopefully nobody else has talked about this, (I'm not about to go looking through all of the posts about Elhokar in OB), because I don't want to look stupid. 

Anyways, I read the Stormlight Archive for the first time this last summer, and after reading all of Brandon's cosmere works, (+Skyward, Rithmatist, etc.), I decided to re-read Stormlight to better participate on here.  While reading today, I found this, said by Elhokar...

That description sounds an awful lot like pattern when Shallan first sees him in her drawings...If I'm right it means even before Elhokar starting to speak the oaths in OB, (even before any stuff with Wit or whatever that was I don't remember), we had foreshadowing/evidence in PART 4 of WoK, that Elhokar could become a Lightweaver. 

I really hope no one else has found this and I'm not waaaaaaaay late. 

Sorry, you're late Yeah, Elhokar was seeing Cryptics that far back, as foreshadowing that he was on the Lightweaver path. Very cool spotting, nonetheless!

[ND103]

Here's a thought though... One that I'm pretty sure I haven't seen crop up, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

What is it wasn't a lightweaver spren. Yes we have WOBs confirming it is. But what if it's actually a corrupted lightweaver spren? Similar to glys? Now bonded to hoid. Wouldn't that make it just that much more interesting?

Obviously I've no evidence to support that. It's more just something rather interesting as a plot device. After all, why would hoid need a pure lightweaver spren? Per WOB he's an OG lightweaver, doing it before it was cool.... But if it's corrupted partially by a spren of Odium (can't remember the name, sorry), then that adds a dimension to it that is pretty cool no?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

27 minutes ago, ND103 said:

Here's a thought though... One that I'm pretty sure I haven't seen crop up, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

What is it wasn't a lightweaver spren. Yes we have WOBs confirming it is. But what if it's actually a corrupted lightweaver spren? Similar to glys? Now bonded to hoid. Wouldn't that make it just that much more interesting?

Obviously I've no evidence to support that. It's more just something rather interesting as a plot device. After all, why would hoid need a pure lightweaver spren? Per WOB he's an OG lightweaver, doing it before it was cool.... But if it's corrupted partially by a spren of Odium (can't remember the name, sorry), then that adds a dimension to it that is pretty cool no?

This is interesting. And I think it might make sense. The Voidbringers really wanted that spren before Hoid took it, so it has to be important. Furthermore, and correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t theorized that Renarin cant be seen in the Diagram by Odium since his spren is corrupted? If that is the case, Hoid would very much like a corrupted spren. After all, he doesn’t want Odium to find him.

[equinox]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I like @ND103s theory, so I'm gonna answer right here. If someone knows a better thread to discuss this (or of it has been discussed before), I am happy to get pointers in the right direction. 

Hoid's Cryptic being corrupted would indeed be interesting. Would Hold get access to a bit of Odium's Investiture (I still don't understand Voidbinding)? Moreover, why would the Fused be so interested in finding a single Cryptic? 

However, the Cryptic seems to look normal:

Quote

Something slipped from one of the cracks in the wall. A moving Pattern that dimpled the stone. It crossed to his hand, which he tucked into his rags as the guards seized him under the arms and hauled him out into the gardens, then tossed him among the beggars there. Once they were gone, Wit rolled over and looked at the Pattern that now covered his palm. It seemed to be trembling.

OB, Epilogue 

And the Cryptic seems to be really afraid. What could the Fused do to him in the PR? Or might he be afraid that Sja-Anat's play will be uncovered?

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, ND103 said:

Here's a thought though... One that I'm pretty sure I haven't seen crop up, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

What is it wasn't a lightweaver spren. Yes we have WOBs confirming it is. But what if it's actually a corrupted lightweaver spren? Similar to glys? Now bonded to hoid. Wouldn't that make it just that much more interesting?

Obviously I've no evidence to support that. It's more just something rather interesting as a plot device. After all, why would hoid need a pure lightweaver spren? Per WOB he's an OG lightweaver, doing it before it was cool.... But if it's corrupted partially by a spren of Odium (can't remember the name, sorry), then that adds a dimension to it that is pretty cool no?

While Hoid's Lightweaving abilities predate the Shattering, he only had partial access to it.  It's apparently "the fulfillment of a long, long quest of hist to finally get full access to Lightweaving."  

 

13 hours ago, Mailnaise said:

K so hopefully nobody else has talked about this, (I'm not about to go looking through all of the posts about Elhokar in OB), because I don't want to look stupid.

So, missing things in Brandon's books in no way makes you stupid.  Brandon packs so much into his books that it's impossible to catch everything.  Even the really knowledgeable people on the Shard (of which I am not one) miss plenty of things.  

However, if you did want to avoid posting something that's already been found, why wouldn't you do a quick search on Elhokar?  Maybe not read every single post, but at least check out his Coppermind page (which does talk about this).  

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

If it was a corrupted spren, it would look different than a regular Cryptic. What Hoid bonds with is described as a capital P Pattern, so its unlikely to be corrupted. And the reason the Odium-enhanced diagram can't see Renarin is because he can see the future, like two Mistborn burning Atium. Renarin changed his own future by turning to Jasnah and accepting his fate, changing how Jasnah interpreted the situtation. It just happens that Truthwatchers happen to already be playing fast and loose with seeing the future and Renarin's spren is corrupted, so seeing the future is a thing he can do more. I don't think its an inherent property of bonding any corrupted spren

Edited December 19, 2018 by Kon-Tiki

[Mailnaise she/her]

@equinox I don't mind if you change the topic a bit...conversations like this are what make the forum fun. Also thanks, @Scion of the Mists. 

14 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Gaz sees them too. In his viewpoint scenes in WoK he's always glancing at things out of the corner of his eyes just like Elhokar does. Also, the presence of Syl (not Kaladin himself as Elhokar thinks) drives off the Cryptic(s) and Elhokar stops hearing the Cryptic voices

Do you have a quote about him seeing the cryptics? I know he's paranoid about not having half his vision, but as of WoK, I didn't catch any mention of cryptics and Gaz.

[Turtle373 he/him]

1 hour ago, Kon-Tiki said:

If it was a corrupted spren, it would look different than a regular Cryptic. What Hoid bonds with is described as a capital P Pattern, so its unlikely to be corrupted. And the reason the Odium-enhanced diagram can't see Renarin is because he can see the future, like two Mistborn burning Atium. Renarin changed his own future by turning to Jasnah and accepting his fate, changing how Jasnah interpreted the situtation. It just happens that Truthwatchers happen to already be playing fast and loose with seeing the future and Renarin's spren is corrupted, so seeing the future is a thing he can do more. I don't think its an inherent property of bonding any corrupted spren

Truthwatchers can't see the future, Renarin is special because Glys is corrupted, so he gets one power from the surgebinding chart (progression), and one from the voidbinding chart(seeing the future), this is why he can't figure out lightweaving because he doesn't have access to it

[RShara she/her]

Nah, it was a regular Cryptic. Especially since we see it at the end of OB, and it looks completely normal.

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Was Hoid's Cryptic the same one that was meant for Elhokar?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Is there anything more to the Cryptic than Pattern? Like Shallan's Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There's more to every individual! But it is not a more powerful Cryptic or anything like that.

source

 

[Solant he/him]

I tend to think that they were searching for Hoid's cryptic with the same intensity they would search for any Radiant spren. I'm sure they are aware that any spren they could end is potentially one less Radiant to deal with later. I suspect there was nothing special about it, or at least that is how I understood it when I read it.

[equinox]

27 minutes ago, Solant said:

I tend to think that they were searching for Hoid's cryptic with the same intensity they would search for any Radiant spren. I'm sure they are aware that any spren they could end is potentially one less Radiant to deal with later. I suspect there was nothing special about it, or at least that is how I understood it when I read it.

But how do they know that there is a Cryptic around? Yes, I also thought the description does not fit a corrupted Spren and @RShara put an end to this theory anyways. But tearing down the whole castle to get to one single Cryptic? I just can't believe that's all to it.

[Solant he/him]

@equinox the only thing I can think of are the screamers, maybe they can tell when radiant spren are nearby, or the fact that Elhokar was on the verge of swearing an oath, so a spren had to be nearby? I don't have any great ideas.

[Calderis he/him]

It was a Cryptic in the physical looking to bond. Finding it, and they knew it was there because of Elhokar (and Cryptic can't go fully invisible like Syl), means stopping a Radiant from forming. 

What does the palace matter to them? 

[equinox]

Elhokar was just starting to say the first oath. Was it really so obvious that anyone besides Kaladin who was observing the whole pitched battle scene realizing it? Did Moash pay attention in his glee to finally getting revenge? Well maybe.

The castle is nothing to them, and I guess there are enough workers to spare for such a task. Still, I expected more to be found below the castle than just a single Spren. Guess I shouldn't overthink things .

[Calderis he/him]

9 minutes ago, equinox said:

Elhokar was just starting to say the first oath. Was it really so obvious that anyone besides Kaladin who was observing the whole pitched battle scene realizing it? Did Moash pay attention in his glee to finally getting revenge? Well maybe.

Considering he held Elhokar down with a spear in him until Elhokar stopped glowing, I'd say yeah, it was pretty obvious.

11 minutes ago, equinox said:

The castle is nothing to them, and I guess there are enough workers to spare for such a task. Still, I expected more to be found below the castle than just a single Spren. Guess I shouldn't overthink things .

Until we got WoB confirmation that that was their goal, everyone thought there was more than that. Storming. Everyone. 

[equinox]

Oh. I totally missed the glowing part. Maybe a second reread allows me to read this scene without tears blinding my eyes... 

[RShara she/her]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Considering he held Elhokar down with a spear in him until Elhokar stopped glowing, I'd say yeah, it was pretty obvious.

Until we got WoB confirmation that that was their goal, everyone thought there was more than that. Storming. Everyone. 

This is so true. But nope, we got confirmation they were looking for the dang Cryptic.

[MountainKing]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:20 AM, Turtle373 said:

Truthwatchers can't see the future, Renarin is special because Glys is corrupted, so he gets one power from the surgebinding chart (progression), and one from the voidbinding chart(seeing the future), this is why he can't figure out lightweaving because he doesn't have access to it

Truthwatchers either have farsight or the ability to see someones  spiritweb.

[Mailnaise she/her]

On 12/20/2018 at 8:42 AM, RShara said:

This is so true. But nope, we got confirmation they were looking for the dang Cryptic.

I feel like this has probably already been addressed, but why would the cryptic be worth so much? Yeah it grants powers, so what if they ended up destroying the castle, but why were they willing to do so much in the first placer for the spren?

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, Mailnaise said:

I feel like this has probably already been addressed, but why would the cryptic be worth so much? Yeah it grants powers, so what if they ended up destroying the castle, but why were they willing to do so much in the first placer for the spren?

Maybe because they want to try and corrupt another Radiant spren, or maybe as a hostage or for ransom? I don't think Brandon has answered.

[Mailnaise she/her]

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Maybe because they want to try and corrupt another Radiant spren, or maybe as a hostage or for ransom? I don't think Brandon has answered.

Has anyone asked, or have people just been RAFOed?

[RShara she/her]

I don't think anyone has asked, since I got the answer that they were looking for the Cryptic pretty recently.

[Mailnaise she/her]

I'll keep it in mind then! 

Wait is there a place where people keep track of what questions need to be asked? That would be convenient