Power Level Reform

[Grey Knight]

If Dapper is pointing up WoT, then should I draft point values for Warhammer 40k? It seems like interest in playing Space Marines has grown, at least since I was last active.

@Archer @Voidus

[Vargo Seldon he/him]

9 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

See voidus' post above.

ahh.  It seems I misinterpreted.  Sorry @Voidus.

[Voidus]

All good, happy to see that we were thinking along similar lines.

[Archer he/him]

Do you count the ability to cook as a skill I should substract some points? Same with other "fluff stuff" e.g. Damaya knows like embroidery or painting? – Sorana

I think it really depends on how you use them. If your character depends on these skills for survival and uses them a lot, then I would consider subtracting points. However, if you’re are giving your character fluff skills, then I think you’re fine, just make sure you clarify them with Archer first when you make the character. – Snipexe

I subscribe to a similar mentality as Snipexe. I add points for skills and powers that make a character more capable than the average human. I assume that the average person is capable of some basic skills and has hobbies that develop their character. I would not apply points for ‘fluff stuff’, unless I felt they amounted to an extraordinary ability, or were extremely rare.

On the intelligence topic, what can be considered average intelligence? -Kenod

Intelligence is hard to quantify. Going by IQ would be a nightmare. If they were in school, I’d say someone of average intelligence would get B’s in most of their classes. Smart would get A’s.

Why does Melody level ability and normal ability in Rithmatics have different scores? - Kidpen

That’s a mistake. (Although I like how Karnatheon managed to defend it). I intended to make people with that level of ability (and normal line-drawing skill) ranked more powerfully. I always wanted to make it more difficult to get her level of skill, given its rareness and potential to revolutionize the art, so its set up so that those with her level of ability are worth 60 point. I’ve clarified that in the post now. Thanks for pointing that out.

I have a question regarding character advancement. If my Era 3 character advances, gains new skills, or a new weapon, speaks an oath, whatever, and then is over the 100 point border. Does that mean, I can't play him/her the next Era anymore? – Sorana

Swearing oaths is a very slow process, the RP tends to move quite a bit faster than, for example, the SA books do in time. It takes several months at least of particularly trying and appropriate circumstances to swear the next oath.
As for how it should be handled, honestly I think it should be the same as any power addition, a question that is floated past everyone and if no one has objections then it is allowed. - Voidus

I agree with Voidus’ view. Inevitably, people will end up gaining power. Mistings can become savants as they practise their skills, for example. But to prevent rampant power creep, we’re going to have to be more conscious of it, and discuss it when it comes up, I think. One thing the group may ask for is the addition of a new weakness to go with the new power.

Archer, the point cap will definitely need to be improved, if only because the nature of the system has changed. When you set the 100 point cap, you intended it to only be for investiture, to see if a character is OP. We didn’t take into account the fact that characters are more than their investitures, and then we added all this stuff with out raising the bar.

My point is that you can have a pretty decent KR, who wouldn’t be OP. But as soon as you say that they were a soldier and are skilled in hand to hand combat, they are OP. That doesn’t seem right to me.

My idea would be to have multiple scales. Let’s say you can put 100 points into investiture, another 100 into the amount of skills they can have in a given area, and and a few more for gear that they could have on them at a given moment. - Mac

How about you can use Investiture points to acquire skills but you can't use skill points to acquire Investiture? If we went with that I'd suggest probably a 2:1 split, so probably 100 free points, 50 skill points.
So Investiture cap is still limited to 100, which I think prevents most of the broken combos. - Voidus

That’s a valid point, Mac. We definitely need more points.

I intentionally kept the skills and magic powers in the same total so that non-magical characters could pick up extra skills to compensate. I think Voidus’ suggestion works and would like to adopt it. (I’ll put it in the post.)

I have my characters' bios done, with points tallied up and everything. I'll post one here, and archer, if you find anything I did wrong, lemme know. If I got it mostly down, maybe we could use it as an example bio? Like, a template? - Gancho

I’m going to make a few edits, but I think that would be a useful addition. I’ll add it. Thank you. (I changed the score a bit. I consider the loss of both arms to be a greater weakness than you gave it credit. And I added some for the PTSD.)

If Dapper is pointing up WoT, then should I draft point values for Warhammer 40k? It seems like interest in playing Space Marines has grown, at least since I was last active. – @Grey Knight

That would be much appreciated. Please do!

 

Thank you, King T and Dr. Dapper for your contributions!

5 hours ago, Dr. Dapper said:

  Hide contents

Wheel of Time index.

• Male
  • 1-11 -1000
  • 12-17 -500
  • 18-36 -150
  • 54-72 -100
  • 37-53 -125

 

• Male
  • ++1-++6 -1200.
  • 7-17 -1000
  • 18-35 -500
  • 36-53 -150
  • 54-72 -125

 

• Tallents (Incomplete. If you remember any, post them)
  • Ter’angreal: your character can make ter’angreal with various strength. - 40 points.
  • Healing: your character can Heal other people of illness and wounds -10 points for normal proficiency, -30 for high.
  • Gateways: your character can make gateways -15 points for normal proficiency, -30 for high proficiency.
  • Foretelling: your character has the Foretelling, letting them see into the future -500 points
  • Cloud Dancer: Your character is a Cloud Dancer who can control the weather. -30 points
  • Ter’angreal sense: Your character can sense the use of ter’angreal -10 points.
  • Dreamer: Your character can glimpse the future in their dreams, and can dreamwalk. -30 points+dreamwalking

 

• Aes Sedai: Your character is an Aes Sedai who has taken the Three Oaths. +25 points and non-combative (I’m too lazy to do Ajahs right now)
• Asha’man: Your character is an Asha’man, who has received training at the Black Tower. -10 points
• Warder bond: You bonded a warder, granting you the ability to know where your warder is, and the warder will protect you. -15 points.

 

• Blademaster: Your character has a heron marked blade, which defines you as a blademaster. -25 points (-30 if you have a power forged sword)
• Warder: Your character is bonded to a channeler, granting them increased strength and endurance, and enhanced healing. Your character will also know the emotions and location of their channeler -5 points

 

 

8

Wheel of time index V1.

You threw me off there for a minute. I was wondering why everything was a weakness, then I realized you subtracted for power instead of weaknesses. It's not a problem, I'll flip them when I post it. I'd love to post this, but I need some things clarified first. 

I'm pretty sure you meant for one of the first ones to be female, instead of two male options. In the second paragraph, I think the first line pasted weirdly. If you meant to put '++1-++6 -1200.' I'm going to need you to explain.

Finally, I don't understand what you mean by this: '-30 points+dreamwalking'. Otherwise, great work so far!

[old man moomba he/him]

3 minutes ago, Archer said:

I'm pretty sure you meant for one of the first ones to be female, instead of two male options. In the second paragraph, I think the first line pasted weirdly. If you meant to put '++1-++6 -1200.' I'm going to need you to explain.

 

 

The ++ on the scale just means that the power level is over the female scale. Like, a male channeler with power level 7 would be measured as a 1 on the female scale. Hope that helps. 

6 minutes ago, Archer said:

Finally, I don't understand what you mean by this: '-30 points+dreamwalking'. Otherwise, great work so far!

That was from an earlier draft that I forgot to add. Dreamwalking is a different ability. The 2nd draft will have that.  

[Gancho Libre he/him]

On 1/9/2019 at 8:09 PM, Archer said:

I have my characters' bios done, with points tallied up and everything. I'll post one here, and archer, if you find anything I did wrong, lemme know. If I got it mostly down, maybe we could use it as an example bio? Like, a template? - Gancho

I’m going to make a few edits, but I think that would be a useful addition. I’ll add it. Thank you. (I changed the score a bit. I consider the loss of both arms to be a greater weakness than you gave it credit. And I added some for the PTSD.)

 

 

Oh, whoops. I thought I posted that in the Alleyverse Characters section.  But I guess if you approve of it, it doesn't matter where I post it...

Ok, I only gave the loss of arms that score because he's doing fine without them, but I guess in a combat situation he would be severely* outmatched. Thanks!

*Pun intended

Edited January 11, 2019 by erbiL ohcnaG

[+Ark1002]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:59 PM, kenod said:

First Heightening: +30

Second Heightening: +40

Third Heightening: +70

Fourth Heightening: +100

Fifth Heightening: +150

Returned: +55

How high is 6th heightening? 

Sorry, @Archer

Edited January 16, 2019 by Ark1002

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

On 1/9/2019 at 6:09 PM, Archer said:

Smart would get A’s.

Dusk Mac and Mack would get A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:09 PM, Archer said:

That’s a valid point, Mac. We definitely need more points.

I intentionally kept the skills and magic powers in the same total so that non-magical characters could pick up extra skills to compensate. I think Voidus’ suggestion works and would like to adopt it. (I’ll put it in the post.)

 

Oh, yeah. Right now, Walker might be over power becuase he is a steel compounder, but he is also a really good fighter. I mean, Dusk has like 90 intelligence points, so then saying that he can't have any investiture is unfair, and having zero combat points(He can throw a punch, at maximum), and he is absolutely horrible at politics. I mean, look at the Great Game. He made almost every guild in the Alleyverse dislike him! I personally believe that the fact that if Dusk gets in a fight, and can't leave with his disk, which I put at ten points becuase it is really slow at changing the direction, and you have to be a genius to use it, you can kill him.

[Archer he/him]

37 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

How high is 6th heightening? 

Sorry, @Archer

I'd put it at 190ish, but hopefully it will remain in the mystical realm of irrelevancy. Fifth Heightening is OP. It shouldn't come as a surprise that all of the other tiers above it are as well. 

36 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Dusk Mac and Mack would get A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++s.

Oh, yeah. Right now, Walker might be over power becuase he is a steel compounder, but he is also a really good fighter. I mean, Dusk has like 90 intelligence points, so then saying that he can't have any investiture is unfair, and having zero combat points(He can throw a punch, at maximum), and he is absolutely horrible at politics. I mean, look at the Great Game. He made almost every guild in the Alleyverse dislike him! I personally believe that the fact that if Dusk gets in a fight, and can't leave with his disk, which I put at ten points because it is really slow at changing the direction, and you have to be a genius to use it, you can kill him.

Reminder for everyone, please get your Era Three characters or transfer requests from list to list in as soon as possible. I'd prefer to have some time to look at them before the Era begins, rather than leave you in characterless limbo.

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

*realizes Dusk is at sixth and a half. Dang it.*

[+Ark1002]

2 hours ago, Archer said:

3 hours ago, Ark1002 said:

 

I'd put it at 190ish, but hopefully it will remain in the mystical realm of irrelevancy. Fifth Heightening is OP. It shouldn't come as a surprise that all of the other tiers above it are as well. 

Ummm....

[Archer he/him]

6 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

Ummm....

I'm sorry, I completely misunderstood your question. The sixth heightening is 3,500 breaths. 

[+Ark1002]

5 minutes ago, Archer said:

I'm sorry, I completely misunderstood your question. The sixth heightening is 3,500 breaths. 

No, that's what I meant, I was just thinking about Dusk...

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

Yeah. He was. Would almost every guild in the Alleyverse not liking him count as a quantifiable weakness? If not, I have another weakness for him.

Few clarifying questions:

1. Are weaknesses still required? Like, if someone is in the point range, so they don’t need a weakness for their character to be accepted, does the character still need one?

2. Is Walker all right? This is directed purely at Archer.

3. Is it a 200 point scale bringing into account skill, intelligence, powers, and gear, or is it a pair of separate scales, one for powers, and one for the other stuff? I have a suggestion: Two separate scales, one for power, one for skill(I’m going to call it a skill scale, but it includes everything that isn’t powers), with the skill one being able to bleed into the power one, but not vice versa. This helps because it allows characters who are weaker in powers to still hold their own. It doesn’t work in reverse because skill is much easier to increase than powers. I just imagine somebody with 200 power points going and training with one of Nohadon’s characters, and then getting 100 skill points to a total of 300 points. It just doesn’t work. Right now we are pretty much saying, “If you want to be able to hold your own in any form of confrontation, you need to use your power points,” or we end up with the before mentioned circumstance.

4. How are linked NPCs scored? This is in regards to Derak, Walker’s only surviving elite. I am trying to decide whether to link him to Walker in order to stop external editing, or not do so because it might make Walker OP. I also have another character planned, as sort of a shadow Devaan, and I need to know this to make sure he isn’t OP.

@Archer

Edited January 19, 2019 by Darth Woodrack

[I think I am here. he/him]

49 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Yeah. He was. Would almost every guild in the Alleyverse not liking him count as a quantifiable weakness?

If so, Lusk probably also has  that weakness. What’s with ‘usk’ names and people not liking them?

50 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Are weaknesses still required? Like, if someone is in the point range, so they don’t need a weakness for their character to be accepted, does the character still need one?

I don’t know whether I can say a sharp yes or no, but I would lean to yes anyway. Weaknesses are what make a character interesting, and leave room for development. Without weaknesses, characters become flawless, and that makes them boring. Overall, it makes them a better character.

52 minutes ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Is it a 200 point scale bringing into account skill, intelligence, powers, and gear, or is it a pair of separate scales, one for powers, and one for the other stuff?

I’m pretty sure we agreed on a 150 point scale, with 100 points for Investiture, and 50 for skills. You could use the Investiture points for skills, but not vice-versa.

[+Ark1002]

11 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

12 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

 

If so, Lusk probably also has  that weakness. What’s with ‘usk’ names and people not liking them?

No, Dusk started a giant war versus everyone but the sentinels and TUBA...

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

11 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

I’m pretty sure we agreed on a 150 point scale, with 100 points for Investiture, and 50 for skills. You could use the Investiture points for skills, but not vice-versa.

This makes no sense. Why would investiture be able to come into skills, but not vice versa? Skills are much much easier to increase than powers. Why would we allow someone to be able to make themselves an incredibly powerful person, with almost no skill, and then they go learn how to fight, and bam over powered.

[I think I am here. he/him]

5 hours ago, Ark1002 said:

No, Dusk started a giant war versus everyone but the sentinels and TUBA...

Lusk literally doesn’t even have the Sentinels and TUBA  

5 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

This makes no sense. Why would investiture be able to come into skills, but not vice versa? Skills are much much easier to increase than powers. Why would we allow someone to be able to make themselves an incredibly powerful person, with almost no skill, and then they go learn how to fight, and bam over powered.

So that the characters that don’t have Investiture aren’t restricted to a 50 point limit. It makes sense that if you’re character does not have Investiture, you should be to use the regular limit to increase skills, since not hav8ng Investiture is a big weakness. And the levels of experience you can get with points explicitly say for how long you’d have to be practising. Sure, you can train t9 fight as an OP character, but unless somehow years have passed in the RP, there’s no way they could increase them to the measure you’re saying.

[Voidus]

7 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

This makes no sense. Why would investiture be able to come into skills, but not vice versa? Skills are much much easier to increase than powers. Why would we allow someone to be able to make themselves an incredibly powerful person, with almost no skill, and then they go learn how to fight, and bam over powered.

Not sure if this was portrayed but basically a character with no Investiture could use all 150 points on their skills, someone with Investiture can use up to 100 of the total 150 points for their Investiture, and the remainder for skills. So everyone would have access to 50 points for skills regardless but would be capped at 100 points of Investiture.

And also, I will be talking to anyone who tries to suddenly add skills that aren't a part of their character sheet. Just like I would if someone claimed that their Character found some Lerasium and is now a Mistborn.

[Archer he/him]

22 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

Yeah. He was. Would almost every guild in the Alleyverse not liking him count as a quantifiable weakness? If not, I have another weakness for him.

Few clarifying questions:

1. Are weaknesses still required? Like, if someone is in the point range, so they don’t need a weakness for their character to be accepted, does the character still need one?

2. Is Walker all right? This is directed purely at Archer.

3. Is it a 200 point scale bringing into account skill, intelligence, powers, and gear, or is it a pair of separate scales, one for powers, and one for the other stuff? I have a suggestion: Two separate scales, one for power, one for skill(I’m going to call it a skill scale, but it includes everything that isn’t powers), with the skill one being able to bleed into the power one, but not vice versa. This helps because it allows characters who are weaker in powers to still hold their own. It doesn’t work in reverse because skill is much easier to increase than powers. I just imagine somebody with 200 power points going and training with one of Nohadon’s characters, and then getting 100 skill points to a total of 300 points. It just doesn’t work. Right now we are pretty much saying, “If you want to be able to hold your own in any form of confrontation, you need to use your power points,” or we end up with the before mentioned circumstance.

4. How are linked NPCs scored? This is in regards to Derak, Walker’s only surviving elite. I am trying to decide whether to link him to Walker in order to stop external editing, or not do so because it might make Walker OP. I also have another character planned, as sort of a shadow Devaan, and I need to know this to make sure he isn’t OP.

Itiah and Voidus were spot on with their comments, so I'll just address what they didn't cover.

0. Unless there is some magical reason that makes him universally despised, I do not consider that to be a weakness you could use on the bio. 

1. I consider weaknesses to be a required field.  

2. I will comment on Walker in the Alleyverse Character thread (I'm typing up a big post at the moment, to address every post made there since my last post, so I'll include you in that). I believe that would be a more appropriate place to do a full bio dissection, since it's not directly related to power level reform. EDIT: I believe that Walker is OP.

4. It depends on the nature of their relationship. If they are a true NPC, only appearing in the occasional post, then they don't need to be mentioned. If they are like a spren, appearing very regularly at their side, then they should be mentioned and attributed points for the amount they increase a character's power level. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Archer

[Darth Woodrack he/him]

4 hours ago, Archer said:

0. Unless there is some magical reason that makes him universally despised, I do not consider that to be a weakness you could use on the bio

Ummm... the Great Gane.

7 hours ago, I think I am here. said:

Lusk literally doesn’t even have the Sentinels and TUBA  

So that the characters that don’t have Investiture aren’t restricted to a 50 point limit. It makes sense that if you’re character does not have Investiture, you should be to use the regular limit to increase skills, since not hav8ng Investiture is a big weakness. And the levels of experience you can get with points explicitly say for how long you’d have to be practising. Sure, you can train t9 fight as an OP character, but unless somehow years have passed in the RP, there’s no way they could increase them to the measure you’re saying.

So, I was saying that the bleed should go in the opposite direction. If you have less power, you should be allowed to be smarter, a better fighter, or have more gear. Right now, if you have a really weak power, like say, emotional sense, you aren’t technically powerless, but you still can’t get the excess points. Get me?

5 hours ago, Voidus said:

Not sure if this was portrayed but basically a character with no Investiture could use all 150 points on their skills, someone with Investiture can use up to 100 of the total 150 points for their Investiture, and the remainder for skills. So everyone would have access to 50 points for skills regardless but would be capped at 100 points of Investiture.

And also, I will be talking to anyone who tries to suddenly add skills that aren't a part of their character sheet. Just like I would if someone claimed that their Character found some Lerasium and is now a Mistborn.

I was siting the fact that right now, to become a good fighter, all you have to do isn’t rp a trip to Devaan, and then you’re good. If I am misunderstanding something, tell me.

4 hours ago, Archer said:

It depends on the nature of their relationship. If they are a true NPC, only appearing in the occasional post, then they don't need to be mentioned. If they are like a spren, appearing very regularly at their side, then they should be mentioned and attributed points for the amount they increase a character's power level. 

Body guards are what I’m think about. The guy can’t fight on his own as he is blind and his left leg is near useless, but there are three of them.

4 hours ago, Archer said:

I will comment on Walker in the Alleyverse Character thread (I'm typing up a big post at the moment, to address every post made there since my last post, so I'll include you in that). I believe that would be a more appropriate place to do a full bio dissection, since it's not directly related to power level reform. EDIT: I believe that Walker is OP.

Ahhh...

[I think I am here. he/him]

1 hour ago, Darth Woodrack said:

So, I was saying that the bleed should go in the opposite direction. If you have less power, you should be allowed to be smarter, a better fighter, or have more gear. Right now, if you have a really weak power, like say, emotional sense, you aren’t technically powerless, but you still can’t get the excess points. Get me?

No. If you had a character which had a weak power, like emotional sense, then you can still use the excess Investiture points and turn them into skill points. All you can’t  do is turn skill points into Investiture points, as that would make it overpowered.

For example, if emotional sense was 20 points, they still have 80 Investiture points and 50 skill points, all of which can be used for skills. What they can’t do is use the 50 skill points for Investiture. 

[Archer he/him]

9 hours ago, Darth Woodrack said:

I was siting the fact that right now, to become a good fighter, all you have to do isn’t rp a trip to Devaan, and then you’re good. If I am misunderstanding something, tell me.

Body guards are what I’m think about. The guy can’t fight on his own as he is blind and his left leg is near useless, but there are three of them.

We judge skills based on years of experience. You'd have to spend a significant amount of time RPing (months in-game) at Devaan's in greatly improve your skill score. Eras don't tend to last that long, nor do people tend to have the patience. You could still do a quick trip to get a crash course, but if you RP realistically, that shouldn't put you on par with, say, people who have indicated that they have spent months or years honing their skills. 

If the bodyguards are like a spren (basically NPCs who will tag-team with their boss and are usually with him) I would recommend mentioning them in the bio the same way you would a spren. Since you're adding three skill sets, that's going to increase the guy's score. The way you've described them, they're more tools than characters, so they should be treated as such, in my opinion. 

[+Ark1002]

@Grey Knight, are you gonna work on the 40K stuff? If not, I will work on it.

[Grey Knight]

1 hour ago, Ark1002 said:

@Grey Knight, are you gonna work on the 40K stuff? If not, I will work on it.

Give me until... tomorrow, I think, to draft something up.