Rhythms in the Cosmere

[Terisen he/him]

There’s more that I want to do with this theory and try to integrate frequencies and waves from music with the information here (I have quite the notebook on it so far). I believe that music is fundamental to the Cosmere.  Hoid seems to back this up when talking with Kaladin.

 

"I'm a soldier, not a musician," Kaladin said.  "Besides, music is for women."

"All people are musicians," Wit countered. 

 

Rhythms in the Cosmere

There seems to be a rhythm to the entire Cosmere that has an effect on all the things within it, how the magic work and particularly how the Cognitive realm works.  A rhythm, at its most fundamental level, is a series of occurrences that have occur with a frequency.  In this case, I’ll refer to it as a series of pulses that occur in a wave (much like how sound works).  It’s my contention that the Cognitive realm is host to the rhythms that we see occurring in the Cosmere.

 

When it comes to waves, they need a host medium that transports them.  In physics, when we look at gravitational waves, the medium through which is moves is space-time.  Sound that we hear is a wave that moves the air particles around us.  So, the rhythm waves would need a medium.  I think we have them in the ocean of “glass beads” that are in Shadesmar.

 

When Jasnah was hearing the Parshendi drums during the night of Gavilar’s assassination, she commented on how the drums sounded.

 

That music’s complexity had always surprised her, suggesting that the Parshendi were not the uncultured savages many took them for.  This far away, the music sounded disturbingly like the beads from the dark place, rattling against one another.  

 

WoR pg. 23

 

This would explain a lot about the Listeners/Parshendi.  They appear to have a deeper connection the Cognitive Realm than most other species.  They are constantly are attuning to different rhythms (Resolve, Appreciation, etc) and these rhythms help them communicate and stay in sync.  In the case of the drumming, each drummer was probably playing a different Rhythm, giving it a polyrhythmic sound.  This is basically how Samba beats work in Brazilian music.  With syncopated beats, they all eventually line back up at some point.  The Rhythms seems to do the same thing during highstorms.

 

The rhythms changed in her mind.  In a moment, they all aligned and became the same.  No matter which one she attuned, she heard the same rhythm – single, steady beats.  Like that of a heart.  

 

WoR pg. 396

 

With the rhythms in one’s head, it was difficult to be late by accident.  

 

WoR pg. 204

 

These rhythms are then universal and are heard in the listener’s head.  So the rhythms come from the cognitive realm, but from whence do they originate?  We get this quote from Brandon:

 

Allomantic pulses are like a ripple of sound in the fabric of creation itself—the power of creation being used, creating a drum beat to those attuned to it. Ruin created a similar beat when his consciousness was near.

 

The beats can plausibly be attained to the Shards and their power being used.  This extends to the powers given through Investiture being used (Allomancy, Surgebinding, etc).  This is what the Listeners hear, as well as Vin when she was first trying to push through the coppercloud.

 

For a moment, she thought she felt something.  Something very strange - a slow pulsing, like a distant drum, unlike any Allomantic rhythm she'd felt before.  But it wasn't coming from Kelsier.  It was distant…far away.

 

The Listeners are also very similar to Pattern with the emotions that they attune to.  Pattern is constantly buzzing and vibrating in different ways that appear to correlate to emotions.  He is likely attuning to the same rhythms that the Listeners do, given that they both have strong connections to the Cognitive realm.

 

I’d love to get feedback on this.  Thoughts?  Am I just retreading old ground here?  I looked around and couldn’t find much on this, but that’s not to say this hasn’t been discussed.

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited May 19, 2014 by Terisen

[Tempus]

Excellent theory.

 

I have a theory about frequency, but rather than the whole theory, here is a brief selection and a quote base of how all Investiture seems to have a frequency. A frequency of course doesn't imply music, necessarily, but it should still be interesting to you. While I generally work from highest principles and move down (Music is a high level way of expressing the Investiture frequencies), you've done the opposite here (Investiture frequencies should be properly expressed as rhythm).

 

Some other music-y things from the cosmere.

• In Warbreaker, gaining Breaths grants you perfect pitch.
• Dawnchant is an unknown musical thing that is apparently important.
• Skaa did not play music (and were genetically less inclined to Allomancy and not at all to Feruchemy...)
• Shallan can produce sounds and music via her Lightweaving surge.
• Hoid's storytelling method involves musical accompaniment and illusions.
• Hrathen in Elantris often is described as 'rhythmic' when he is controlling crowds.
• Seons speak with a particular and peculiar rhythm to their talk
• When Shallen draws from her memory, she often is described as following a cadence or falling into a rhythm
• Allomancy, as you say, is full of rhythms and pulses.
• The Well of Ascension had a very strong thudding rhythm
• When Kaladin used his lashings unconsciously to attract arrows, he would pound his shield to a rhythm
• Many animals on Roshar are described in terms of rhythm, from the way they move to the patterns on their backs
• The Thrill is described as the Rhythm of battle by Dalinar
• The symmetry of the Rosharan cities is produced by cymmatics.
• The highstorm is described as a 'a terrible song without rhythm'
• People on Roshar are noted by Shallan to move in a pulsing rhythm rather than a steady stream in Sebarial's Highcamp

If all of that isn't interesting, here's a Brandon quote from Warbreaker Annotations regarding Color Harmonics

 

 

Color harmonics are one of the things in this book that, I think, have some very interesting philosophical implications. I’ve always been fascinated by the concept of perfect pitch. Pitches and tones are an absolute; music isn’t just something we humans devise and construct out of nothing. It’s not arbitrary. Like mathematics, music is based on principles greater than human intervention in the world. Someone with perfect pitch can recognize pure tones, and they exist outside of our perception and division of them. (Unlike something like our appreciation of other kinds of art, which is dealing with things that are far more subjective.)However, I wondered if—perhaps—there are perfect steps of colors just like there are perfect tones, with color fifths, sevenths, and chords and the like. In our world, nobody has the ability to distinguish these things—but what if there were someone who could? Someone who could tell something innate about color that isn’t at all subjective?I’m not sure if I explained that right, but it intrigued me enough to become part of this book.

 

 

Also, Peter Ahlstrom is a musician, as is Brandon's wife. Those are lots of supporting points, but....

 

 

 

QUESTION

You talk about music a lot in your books, but you never talk about the notation, or how advanced they've come with the chords and scales and stuff, do you have that all planned out or is that just—

BRANDON SANDERSON

I have an idea in my head, but it's not something I spend a lot of time worldbuilding. [...] I play trumpet, not piano, so my music theory is all squished through brass, which leaves me with kind of a weird perspective on it. My wife did music theory, and played piano, and all this stuff, and me it's like, you know, "it comes out the front of the horn!"

Edited May 19, 2014 by Tempus

[Terisen he/him]

Thanks for the extra info! You've got a lot of things that I made note of (but couldn't figure out how to include in the initial post) but you've also given me some extras I hadn't considered and/or noticed.  Especially the items from Elantris as it's been a while since I've read that.  The Kindle search function can only take you so far!

 

I've thought about the musicality in terms of the waves of Investiture (I'll definitely need to read the wiki you linked) being a "melody" over the top of the inherent rhythm of the Cosmere, essentially make a song.  I'm a guitarist on the side and the idea that the fundamentals of the Cosmere could be music an idea the captivated me.

 

I should also note that I'm thinking of this along the lines of string theory in physics, which was/is thought to be the unified theory of physics.  That has vibrating strings and I thought it wasn't totally out of the question that the unified theory of magic could be along those same lines.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Terisen

[SeekinRage he/him]

I completely agree with this theory.  It makes perfect sense to make a universe that is based completely on music.

 

Music is complex and simple at the same time.  Most people would explain it as Sanderson explained it, "The noise comes from the open end" while others would explain it like, "the way the wind goes through the mouthpiece coupled with the position of the valves, allows the vibrations to produce the note that we hear from the bell of the instrument".

 

With the Cosmere, we are left in the dark about the true nature of music in the universe, but we are shown little pieces on each planet that allude to its greater function in the Cosmere.

 

Oh and also it's about dang time we finally see you on here Terisen It took you long enough to post something here, among other things that we talk about often, so officially welcome :  :

Edited May 19, 2014 by SeekinRage

[Terisen he/him]

I was thinking about this more and considered the rhythms in conjunction with the highstorms on Roshar.  What if the rhythms and pulses are responsible for causing the highstorms?

 

The rhythms, as posited above, come in the form of waves.  For the most part, the peaks and troughs don't line up, so there's nothing really happening.  You may get some places where interference occurs for a couple pulses (don't know what that might be yet), but what happens when ALL the pulses/rhythms line up?  The resulting wave might be massive.  Massive enough to cause an explosion in the physical realm.  Eshonai does note that all the rhythms are the same during a highstorm.  Though, if true, it would seem that it should be easier for stormwardens to calculate the occurrence of highstorms.

[Kurkistan he/him]

You may want to adjust your theory to some extent.

 

Source:

Nepene:

1) You've mentioned several philosophical concepts used in the writing of your books, like Jung's collective unconsciousness, Plato's cave. Could you expand a bit on your use of those in your books, and whether you think it is necessary to use philosophy to make a good fantasy world?

 

Brandon:

1) I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations--whatever they are--can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

 

 As for more examples, they're spread through my fiction. Spinoza is in there a lot, and Jung has a lot to do with the idea of spiritual connectivity (and how the Parshendi can all sing the same songs.)

 

So it seems, then, that the ability of the Parshendi to tap into the rhythms is fundamentally spiritual. A matter of spiritual connectivity, actually.

 

This gives us two broad options, I think: Either the Parshendi are spiritually connected to each other or they have some connectivity to the "hub" of the rhythms. Perhaps there could be some melding of the two in that the Parshendi might do a bit of both. But I think it likely that, given how the highstorms affect the rhythms and the existence of "Odious" rhythms, there is some "hub" to be dealt with.

 

The problem for your theory, then, seems to be that that hub is probably spiritually located. At the very least it's almost certainly not entirely cognitive in nature.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Terisen he/him]

I think it may be entirely possible to expand out to all three realms for the rhythms. We don't know much about the spiritual, so it's hard to give any sort of concrete examples of the rhythms past what you just wrote. I don't think expanding to all three realms greater alters too much.

[Kurkistan he/him]

So will you be maintaining that "the Cognitive realm is host to the rhythms that we see occurring in the Cosmere"?

[Tempus]

The spiritual realm does govern connections. Could we suggest that the Parshendi are connected as a chorus on the spiritual, act on the Physical, and the music is expressed in or through the Cognitive? It's notable that Parshendi forms are modified through spren bonds, that spren are cognitive beings, and that spren modify the rhythms they can attune.

[Terisen he/him]

I think Tempus has the right of it.  The pulses themselves may be something that exist across all realms.  I'll need to think on this a bit more and comment further one I have a bit more energy (tired after the long weekend).

[Bunnyburn he/him]

Thos topic brings a question to my mind. The Parshendi can attune to certain rhythyms, and despite proximity they are always perfectly synced with that rhythym and any Parshendi attuned to that rhythym. If a Parshendi was to travel elswhere in the cosmere, would he still be able to attune to the same Rhythyms, perfectly in sync over light-years? Would the rhythyms be weak or absent, similarly to Elantrian magic and proximity? Or perhaps, proximity to a different shard/s would cause a whole new set of rhythyms to be heard?

[Terisen he/him]

So I thought about this a little more (finally).  I think that I'd have to adjust the theory, much as Kurk has suggested, but instead of just moving the "hub" to the spiritual realm, I'd say that the pulses have their origin in all three realms.  The only thing I think that could be rhythmic in the physical realm is the cymatics that produced the cities on Roshar, but that might not be the only thing.  The physical pulse may be getting filtered somewhere or I'm just not identifying the correct result of the pulse in the physical.  I'd include highstorms, but those seem to be just Roshar-specific.

 

I think it makes sense to have the hub exist in all three realms.  The other things in the Cosmere do.

 

Thos topic brings a question to my mind. The Parshendi can attune to certain rhythyms, and despite proximity they are always perfectly synced with that rhythym and any Parshendi attuned to that rhythym. If a Parshendi was to travel elswhere in the cosmere, would he still be able to attune to the same Rhythyms, perfectly in sync over light-years? Would the rhythyms be weak or absent, similarly to Elantrian magic and proximity? Or perhaps, proximity to a different shard/s would cause a whole new set of rhythyms to be heard?

 

This is an interesting point.  You're introducing the problem of the speed of light speed limit.  For beings on the same planet, it's something of a moot point.  It may not be instantaneous on the same planet if they're on different sides of the continent, but it sure would appear that way because no information could travel fast enough to tell you that it wasn't!  Across different planets is a whole different manner.

 

I'd posit that the rhythms have the same efficacy, but there would be a delay in when it's received between two individuals due to the speed of light.

[Curiosity he/him]

 

 

Q:  Is there a way to tell between different Investitures?

A:  [brandon misunderstood the question a little in the beginning - he thought the question was "can every Shard's magic detect other Investitures?"] Most of the magics have built into them that ability, but I wouldn't say that everyone does. I am trying to remember if all of them have... A lot of them have a power that would allow you to do that, but I don't know if every one of them does.

Q:  [Clarification]

A:  If you were really good at burning bronze, you could use bronze to distinguish between different types of Investiture from different planets even. And that sort of skill does exist in other magic systems.

Q:  Is it like a wavelength kind of thing?

A:  Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Source

 

Well, that sort of confirms it. 

 

 

 

I think it makes sense to have the hub exist in all three realms.  The other things in the Cosmere do.

 

This is an interesting point.  You're introducing the problem of the speed of light speed limit.  For beings on the same planet, it's something of a moot point.  It may not be instantaneous on the same planet if they're on different sides of the continent, but it sure would appear that way because no information could travel fast enough to tell you that it wasn't!  Across different planets is a whole different manner.

 

I'd posit that the rhythms have the same efficacy, but there would be a delay in when it's received between two individuals due to the speed of light.

 

What if the "speed limit" is different in the fields of the Spiritual/Cognitive Realms? I bet that it is. This probably allows worldhopping/Elsecalling.

[Kurkistan he/him]

The wavelength clarification is inspired by the books in the library in Elantris, I believe.

 

Some theorists described the process [of the Dor's power only entering the world through properly-shaped Aons] using unfamiliar words like "frequency" and "pulse length."

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Music and rhythm in the Cosmere is definitely a thing, but I think the higher order is that of wave lengths. 

 

It makes me think of the Silmarillion beginning where all of creation is ordered by music of the Ainur and Eru (there are some typos in this source). 

 

Also if anyone has read the Weis & Hickman Death Gate Cycle, the magics of that setting is based on wave lengths and intersection between the wave of reality and the wave of possibilities. 

 

Interesting that multiple very successful authors/series have dealt with this as the concept or foundation principle of the universe. 

[Tempus]

Not so unlikely, Green. If you get Worldbuilders who are interested into creating magic systems that are logically viable (in a sort of pseudo-science way), then waveforms are a likely place to stop. The place to insert your magic should be at the most fundamental part you can grasp, and preferably the level below the most fundamental level we have a complete grasp upon. At the moment, the idea that all things in the Universe are actually waves (wave/particle duality and quantum physics) is that area, and it has been for quite some time.

 

It seems natural to me that people whose life is to create these complex systems should naturally decide for their magical intervention to occur at this level. Certainly, Sanderson, Tolkien and Weis are known for their elaborate and complex worldbuilding. And though each has specialities (Tolkien Lanugage, Weis Tabletops, and Brandon Religion), they are all learned and intelligent people.

[Terisen he/him]

Music and rhythm in the Cosmere is definitely a thing, but I think the higher order is that of wave lengths. 

 

I totally agree and that's where I was ultimately trying to go with this.  I've just gotten sidetracked on other theories and what not, so this is on the backburner right now.  I really should get back to it.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Not so unlikely, Green. If you get Worldbuilders who are interested into creating magic systems that are logically viable (in a sort of pseudo-science way), then waveforms are a likely place to stop. The place to insert your magic should be at the most fundamental part you can grasp, and preferably the level below the most fundamental level we have a complete grasp upon. At the moment, the idea that all things in the Universe are actually waves (wave/particle duality and quantum physics) is that area, and it has been for quite some time.

 

It seems natural to me that people whose life is to create these complex systems should naturally decide for their magical intervention to occur at this level. Certainly, Sanderson, Tolkien and Weis are known for their elaborate and complex worldbuilding. And though each has specialities (Tolkien Lanugage, Weis Tabletops, and Brandon Religion), they are all learned and intelligent people.

 

I agree that it's not unlikely for complex worldbuilders.

 

It is just interesting to me. I also find it interesting that of the 3 I can think of off the top of my head who use waves/music as foundational principles of their universes/worldbuilding that each one is from a different "generation" of writers in the genre as well. 

 

I wish I had taken some more physics in school, I feel like it would make me a better (more detailed) reader of Brandon's stories! There are interactions and complexities to his magics that I don't have a foundation to notice or speculate on because my lack of physics knowledge. Which is AWESOME since we're talking about fantasy settings, it speaks volumes to the depths of his thought and writing for his worlds. 

[TamM]

I was watching a program on the BBC last night that discussed string theory - when he was describing the strings like those on a violin and each tone was a particle of some sort and some of those particles could pass between membranes (other dimensions) and move outside the limit of the speed of light. All I was thinking about was BS and his cosmere and the rhythms heard by the Parshendi.

 

It might also explain how FTL travel works in the cosmere, they drop into one of the other 'branes' as the presenter called them.

 

He also suggested there may be 10 of these branes.

[Zmann966 he/him]

I always took this mentality as a given, 

The parallels between novels, shards, and powers of investiture sync (hah! pun) too frequently (hah!) to be less than an orchestrated (I'm on a roll!) device.

 

Humanity is nothing without investiture right? It's the power of creation that gives them sentience. It's the piece of God that binds to their soul and makes them more than mindless apes. Why wouldn't there be an underlying frequency to it? Even in our world everything vibrates to an unheard rhythm. Matter moves in buzzes and hums of interconnection as atoms and molecules. Energy falls into these frequencies along the electromagnetic spectrum.

 

The cosmere has a vast, underlying rhythm to it as well.

 

The Parshendi can feel it innately, they are the only sentience not human (or at least not directly linked to a shard with a soul. Even Seons are part of Devotion) and their soul is full of these holes that the melodies can resonate through. They are open to the vibrations of the cosmere and when bonded with hatred they are susceptible to Odium's percussion, as if the voidspren bond "tunes" them to these new Rhythms

 

Just as Hemalurgy opens a person's soul to Ruin's song. It creates cracks in the piece of their investiture as it "staples" new data onto their soul. It "tunes" them to Ruin's power so that they are pitched-true to his notes.

 

As confirmed by Brandon in the post above, all investiture and power has a wavelength. Seekers are designed to pick up on this by burning Bronze and bringing them in line with the cadence of Allomancy. Like a tuning peg on a string, the specific pattern of Bronze pulls their soul into line and attunes them to hear that music. And if they savant or practice well enough they can twist that peg and hear other investitures.

 

Aons, Dakhor, Soulstamps; they are like the written form of the cosmere's music. The notes on the page that guide the harmonies and show them what or how to play. 

Even Alethi glyphs might be similar, or may have been. They might have worked before shard they were written for (Honor) is gone.

 

 

 

 

Wow, long-winded.

What I'm saying is it's a fantastic theory, and I completely agree wholeheartedly.

Which is why I was always more fascinated with Seekers than the other, more flashy allomancers. It's why I like Inquisitors and Parshendi so much too. These guys are more than just playing and barely listening to the music of Sanderson's cosmere. They're the ones who are more catered to get to actually hear it.

[Curiosity he/him]

Quick question:

Could another Shard manipulate people through Hemalurgic "holes" in their SpiritWebs just like Ruin? Preservation wouldn't, it's against his intent, but what about someone like Honor or Odium?

[Zmann966 he/him]

I honestly have no clue.

I'm wanting to say yes, only because I use that as a device in my little fan-fiction series... (To Hate, check it out! I'd love to see what you guys think. :3 http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/12248-to-hate/ ) But honestly I have no clue.

I kinda went off on what would happen if someone used hemalurgy to steal a spiritual attribute from a parshman.

 

Perhaps each shard has it's own "song" that can only be tuned with their specific investitures/intents/powers, but who knows?

They can obviously blend SOMEHOW, if Ruin/Preservation Devotion/Dominion are anything to go by.

[Terisen he/him]

Quick question:

Could another Shard manipulate people through Hemalurgic "holes" in their SpiritWebs just like Ruin? Preservation wouldn't, it's against his intent, but what about someone like Honor or Odium?

 

I would lean towards saying 'yes', but I am by no means as much of an expert on Hemalurgy or Spiritwebs as others on this board. From what I recall, Brandon has said that Hemalurgy is something that is global across the Cosmere, so I'm guessing that because it's not specific to just Ruin, that it would indeed open it up for influence.

 

Perhaps each shard has it's own "song" that can only be tuned with their specific investitures/intents/powers, but who knows?

They can obviously blend SOMEHOW, if Ruin/Preservation Devotion/Dominion are anything to go by.

 

This is pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking.  Similar to how colors have different wavelengths, different Shards have different intents which affects their "pulse".

[Emily she/her]

 

 

On 17/06/2014 at 9:10 AM, Zmann966 said:

Even Alethi glyphs might be similar, or may have been. They might have worked before shard they were written for (Honor) is gone.

I do agree with this. In WoR and OB, 

Spoiler

Kaladin and Lopen (at least, they’re the only ones I can think of specifically right now), upon swearing the third and second Ideals respectively, had a glyph appear around them. 

Quote

“Words?”

“ ‘Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before pancakes.’ That’s the easy one. The hard one is, ‘I will protect those who cannot protect themselves,’ and—”

A sudden flash of coldness struck Lopen, and the gemstones in the room flickered, then went out. A symbol crystallized in frost on the stones around Lopen, vanishing under the cots. The ancient symbol of the Windrunners.

-Oathbringer, Ch 121 

 

 

[recneps he/him]

Huh. So, basically, if anyone but the Skaa end up on Arrakis, then they are utterly and absolutely doomed?