Do all magic users have to have a broken soul?

[snote]

I noticed while reading the SA books again that each of the characters that are KR or hopefuls have had a tortured past. In Mistborn you have to "snap" after a time or experience of great pain, usually. So, my thoughts on it lead me to think that maybe while you deal with this huge life issues. You lose a part of your soul in the spiritual realm, that then is replaced with the investiture ability of that area's shard. Any thoughts?

[Ashiok]

In Warbreaker, you have to buy Breath, or die and be returned (with a guilty conscience) to have power

In Elantris, you had to turn, which was a physical and probably emotional change

[Terisen he/him]

There probably is something to this.  While gaining Breaths on Nalthis doesn't follow this pattern since they can be given freely, the innate Investiture of the Returned fits the pattern.  And we don't know a whole lot about the Shaod in Elantris.  I mean, Raoden seemed pretty well adjusted (from what I remember).

[Pechvarry]

Well, the process just brings a mandatory hazing: you die. Your heart stops beating, and you become reliant on Investiture to sustain you. The Elantrian process seems like a streamlined and automatic version of the Returning process (when the city is working, that is).

[RShara she/her]

Yes.  Great emotional or physical events cause cracks in the soul.  Those cracks let Investiture in, and allow the use of magic.  I think the back cover of WoR says this, plus heavily implied by WoBs.  On Scadrial, there's clearly Snapping.  In SA, it seems to be more general, and less understood--explanable since the KR have been gone for so long.

 

Sel, I'm really not sure how the Elantrians transform.  That one is confusing!

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

From the WoR back cover:

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

And another WoB on the subject:

KCHAN

How does Snapping work after Sazed changed it? If you don't want to reveal it all right now, are there any hints you can give us?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He couldn't get rid of this entirely. I don't want to spoil things, but Snapping was built into Allomancy primarily because of larger-scale magical issues. This is getting deep into the issue, but it has to do with a person's spiritual makeup and a 'wounded' spirit being easier to fill with something else, kind of like a cut would let something into the bloodstream. Sazed made this threshold on Scadrial much easier to obtain.

Third WoB because I'm crazy like that.

Q: What other magic systems in the Cosmere have that same kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

A: It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the Investiture come in, and it can open the cracks more.

Q: Are there other magic systems like that?

A: Yes.

Q: Will we see those any time soon?

A: Maybe...RAFO.

Anyways, it seems fairly conclusive that accepting foreign Investiture requires stress on the soul so it can "fit into the cracks". With Hemalurgy, this happens forcefully, with the Spike ripping open a hole in the soul to fit the Spiritweb fragment in (as an aside, this is likely how the flaw works– due to Hemalurgic decay, the Investiture isn't enough to fill the hole completely, so there's still a chink left where the foreign Investiture of a Soother/Rioter can get in and reak havoc). Feruchemy doesn't use much or any foreign Investiture, so Snapping is either extremely minor or nonexistent. Awakeners, I think, are Snapped from birth– their souls are already fragmented, ready to detach or fit in more. Dakhor pretty clearly has a lot of trauma involved. Forgers never actually take in Investiture, as the symbols are the actual conduits, so no Snapping is needed there. And Elantrians probably Snap, since the Shaod concentrates so much power into them (though pre-Elantris, with much weaker, unfocused power, the Snapping would be so minimal as to be unnoticeable).

[TheBlackReaper he/him]

Anyways, it seems fairly conclusive that accepting foreign Investiture requires stress on the soul so it can "fit into the cracks". With Hemalurgy, this happens forcefully, with the Spike ripping open a hole in the soul to fit the Spiritweb fragment in (as an aside, this is likely how the flaw works– due to Hemalurgic decay, the Investiture isn't enough to fill the hole completely, so there's still a chink left where the foreign Investiture of a Soother/Rioter can get in and reak havoc). Feruchemy doesn't use much or any foreign Investiture, so Snapping is either extremely minor or nonexistent. Awakeners, I think, are Snapped from birth– their souls are already fragmented, ready to detach or fit in more. Dakhor pretty clearly has a lot of trauma involved. Forgers never actually take in Investiture, as the symbols are the actual conduits, so no Snapping is needed there. And Elantrians probably Snap, since the Shaod concentrates so much power into them (though pre-Elantris, with much weaker, unfocused power, the Snapping would be so minimal as to be unnoticeable).

 

In case of the 'warbreaker' setting, I believe that the snapping happens when a person dies and then comes back to life. The breath is a tiny investiture that is inherently present in all, and it may be so that the local shard has lifted up the threshold of the investiture a little bit, which ensures that the people always posses some investiture, starting with their one breath, which can be augmented to a slightly higher level by taking other people's breath. It is only the returned that truely differ from the normal norm, which leads me to believe that theirs is the 'true investiture', undergone after the traumatic experience of death.

 

Also, in case of sel, it might be that the snapping threshold is very low. Given the fact that harmony has made the threshold quite low on scadrial, it might be that the 'shaod' is an agent or entity created by devotion to ensure that the snapping might happen in an orderly manner, without much spiritual upheavel.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

[king of nowhere]

on roshar, probably yes. one of the chapter heading said something about a broken soul having cracks where investiture seeps.

on other planets, probably not. protagonists have a broken soul simply because they can have better character development

[Aonar he/him]

Porridge already covered the main points, but these two threads by Argent and I might be of interest. The gist of them is that after a major change in one's Spiritual Aspect (or soul, if you prefer) it becomes malleable enough to accept and use foreign Investiture.

[Mistdork she/her]

Sel, I'm really not sure how the Elantrians transform.  That one is confusing!

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

 

 

The Shaod, though, is directly related to how Aon Dor works, that though doesn't exclude it from fitting the pattern to some extent. Shaod comes at night, usually to people that show devotion to a particular area in their life. Like Galladeon to his farm, Raoden to his people, or Karata to her daughter and husband (and even Adien to his numbers/figures). All of these people showed an intent that is arguably in-line to the local way to attract the Shaod, and have the genetics to do it too (they all of have some Aonic blood). They also possess the third requirement, that is, they show remarkable devotion to something...and so become Elantrians (as long as certain symbols work).

 

So, from my recent reading of Elantris, it seems like it still fits the pattern. That is, if one looks at this pattern as highly intensified emotion/psychological trauma that breaks through cracks in the soul. My personal belief is that the better an emotion or a person's intent fits with the Intent of the Shard/Splinter, the easier it is for the local Investiture to look through...(if it's end-positive Investiture). However, it's not impossible for other emotions to...unlock the cracks.

 

Like, we know (from WoB) that in Mistborn you can snap without having an emotional experience that causes you to have to "preserve" yourself in a dangerous situation...but it's rare. Usually, the experience of snapping/breaking has to align, often those who snapped in the series had to go through a traumatic situation where they had to preserve themselves somehow. Like Kelsier at the Pits or Vin when she was born. Still, if an emotional high (I mean, positive emotions) can snap you on Scadrial, it might be true elsewhere. I kind of hope we see someone becoming a KR like this just for kicks...

 

 

In Warbreaker, you have to buy Breath, or die and be returned (with a guilty conscience) to have power

In Elantris, you had to turn, which was a physical and probably emotional change

 

I don't recall Returned coming back because of their "guilty conscience". It was often because they did something spectacular (like Lightsong saving his niece, etc), and then came back to possibly change the future that they foresaw thanks to Endowment. This doesn't mean that there wasn't a breaking at some point, but I don't believe that's necessarily the case. Yes, they get a ridiculous amount of Investiture, but it still seems to fit the pattern of end-neutral more than end-positive...at least in how they receive it (since it comes directly from Endowment, maybe they can just break it open because of their shardiness. Who knows...) 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

The Shaod, though, is directly related to how Aon Dor works, that though doesn't exclude it from fitting the pattern to some extent. Shaod comes at night, usually to people that show devotion to a particular area in their life. Like Galladeon to his farm, Raoden to his people, or Karata to her daughter and husband (and even Adien to his numbers/figures). All of these people showed an intent that is arguably in-line to the local way to attract the Shaod, and have the genetics to do it too (they all of have some Aonic blood). They also possess the third requirement, that is, they show remarkable devotion to something...and so become Elantrians (as long as certain symbols work).

Oh, sorry, I should have specified what I was replying to there. I was contesting TheBlackReaper's claim that the Shaod is an entity created by Devotion there. I certainly agree that the Shaod candidates for Snapping, since it, regardless of its origins, is still an example of foreign Investiture being received by a magic user.

Interesting thoughts on Snapping aligning with Shardic Intent. It sounds very plausible, even without full evidence.

[Mistdork she/her]

Oh, sorry, I should have specified what I was replying to there. I was contesting TheBlackReaper's claim that the Shaod is an entity created by Devotion there. I certainly agree that the Shaod candidates for Snapping, since it, regardless of its origins, is still an example of foreign Investiture being received by a magic user.

Interesting thoughts on Snapping aligning with Shardic Intent. It sounds very plausible, even without full evidence.

 

I'm honestly sure that all the ways people get Investiture are aligned with Shardic/Splinter Intent...Even Spren must have oaths/ideals/truths which their KR must swear to receive Investiture. Swearing oaths is honorable, and arguably, the growth of KR could be seen as Cultivating a bond (but the evidence for that is really sparse). Yes, Honor is splintered, but the system was around before then, and that should mean it still reflects his Intent and, therefore, the way that they get that Investiture reflects it as well (to an extent)...

 

Also, I have more evidence for this. Think about how nobles snapped their kids in Mistborn. They beat them until they snapped, that is, until they were able to preserve themselves, thus again reflecting Preservation's Intent. The way end-positive Investiture seems to work is that those who usually receive it have to be in a situation or even live a life that aligns with the Shard's Intent plus whatever prerequisites might also be required (genetics/geometry/spren-bond). This isn't always the case (you can eat a bead of Lerasium or grab a Honorblade) but for the most part, it is...

 

The only ones I find odd are ChayShan and Forgery. I have no clue how to explain the former, and Forgery seems like a Devotion-based power based on skill (and the devotion a Forger has to their profession), while also not being based in someone (in the same way, though region and genetics still matter). :/

Edited May 19, 2014 by Nymp

[snote]

It seems my theory was correct and almost obvious, lol. I never read the back of WoR because I only ever had the audiobook. I am glad that I was smart enough to put together something that is plainly stated on the book itself, lol.

I appreciate you all taking the time to validate the claim I had made. I honestly just got to thinking about how every single one of the new KR members have had great loss in their lives. Shallan, Kaladin, Jasnah, Lift, and Dalinar. It just kinda clicked for me when I remembered "snapping"  from Mistborn.

I started thinking about it when Syl says, "Sometimes men can be fixed." when Kaladin tells her that he's broken. As if that was part of the process for becoming what he is. Without which he either wouldn't appreciate the power or couldn't attain it at all.

I don't want anyone to think I am trying to state anything as my own conclusion or taking credit for anything. I honestly just have questions and want to know if the ideas I have are worth holding on to, or if they have a fatal flaw in their concept. So, thanks again. I appreciate all the replies.