Wysawyg Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 Jezrien. This might sound crazy and I don't think there's enough evidence to conclusive prove it yet (and WoB suggests not) but here goes: So WoB has hinted that Taln isn't Taln (though that could be a red herring) so I got to thinking to who it could be... We know that the current heralds are going crazy along the lines of their previous character so Nalan is taking justice to extremes and Shalash is breaking all her own statues. So how would the epitome of Honour break when he's broken the most important oath he ever swore? Answer: By trying to get back what he lost and taking on the role of the person he most betrayed. Taln who the other heralds abandoned to hell-equivalent. I think however it goes beyond Jezrien pretending to be Taln and into the fact that he believes he is now Taln. This puts a new slant on the 'Am I too late? in his PoV sections. From Taln-perspective, is he too late to stop the desolations? From Jezrien's perspective, I think it ties in thematically with Kaladin's plotline, is he too late to regain the honour he's lost by breaking the oath? This might also explain why the blade Dalinar bonded is not an honour blade as we know Jezrien doesn't have his honour blade... which I think will tie in with the narrative because: where is Jezrien's honour blade? Well, Kaladin got it back off Szeth so it's currently in Urithiru which is where Amaran is taking Jezrien. Herald and Honour-blade reunion? WoB says there isn't enough evidence yet for what happened to the herald-blade which leads me to think if my theory is correct, there isn't enough evidence that Jezrien is Taln. Other evidence is that the conversation between Nalan and someone in the Jasnah PoV prologue mentions Jezrien being a drooling mess. Obviously this occurs well before the epilogue to WoK where Taln/Jezrien arrives but I think Taln/Jezrien is definitely someone who could be described as a mess, perhaps a mess who is just starting to recover a semblance of sanity through pretence. Also when Taln catches the blade before it kills Amaran, did he really catch it or could he have used a binding to pull it to himself? I'm not sure what 'powers' Heralds have, whether it's the same as their orders or something more. Other possible evidence that I only discovered from checking the coppermind, this quote: “[The Makabaki] worship Jezrien, though they don’t accept him as a figure from the Vorin religion. They name him the only god.” —Teft about the Makabaki[1] I'm pretty sure that the current Taln was described as looking like a Makabaki so it makes sense that their God looks like them! I can't think of a good explanation yet so why Hoid tells Taln/Jezrien he's late... other than it possibly tying into the conversation about being the second person to <x> so Jezrien is the second person to 'be Taln' as it were or why the shardblade that Taln/Jezrien found somewhere didn't disappear when he was unconscious but still. So, complete madness or possibility? 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left he/him Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 I really like that connection with the Makabaki. I think it's possible and that would be a nice twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) In Jasnah's prologue is: “She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.” “Shut up.” “I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” The drooling is from Lift's interlude: “Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” However, here Nalan could be meaning the new Prime when using 'he', not Jezrien. Anyway, I like your theory. But then where is the real Taln, is he not back yet? Also, I'm not sure I see the connection between Jezere restoring his honor and him pretending to be Taln. If the Heralds become twisted versions of themselves, shouldn't Jezrien be doing something worthless, misguiding and anti-protecting? Or do you argue Jezrien is different from Shalash and Nale? So, complete madness or possibility? Why not both? edit: What does the 'Gift' not-Taln was think of then? He sounds like more than a guilt driven individual. Also, it might be coincidence, but both Kalak and not-Taln use the same sentence in their inner dialogue: How long had it been?' Edited May 14, 2014 by Aleksiel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) I've had similar thoughts and approve of this theory for quite a few reasons, though I'm not very hung up on it being Jezrien. Our five male Heralds are Jezrien, Nalan, Kalak, Taln, and Ishi. Could be Ishi, Jezrien, or Kalak. I lean towards Jezrien or Ishi. Meta evidence: "Taln" arrived at the end of TWoK, and it was supposed to be this big "oh, crap" moment. If it turns out he's just some sort of insane guy, it's lacking in importance. Besides, Wit showed up! "Taln" had no Honorblade, or else his eyes would have been a different color. Multiple personality disorder is a very interesting way to deal with the guilt of abandoning someone to near-eternal torture. "Taln" is obviously supernaturally quick, given his ability to catch darts. Him being a Herald would work very well. "Taln" has knowledge of all the Heralds and the before times. As for evidence to pin "Taln" down as Jezrien, Jezrien had a short black beard in the Prelude, and our madman has dark hair. The beggar in Gavilar's assassination has a black-and-gray beard, and I personally support him as being Jezrien (since Jezrien is drooling). Edited May 14, 2014 by Moogle 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysawyg Posted May 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 My personal theory as to where Taln really is is that he's still stuck in Damnation. Do we have a timeframe for where the Taln death quote occurs relative to the current timeline? I know the prevailing theory is along the lines of: Herald breaks in Damnation, Desolation begins but... What if the Oathpact is actually between Honour/Cultivation and Odium along the lines of "You can have your desolations but only when a herald fights and breaks" so the heralds abandonment only broke their side of it and left Odium free to start a desolation whenever he felt like it (why he's waiting to know I don't know!) The main reason I'm keen on Jezrien-as-Taln is just because it's means him and his honour blade are coming close to each other. Presuming that Nalan is going after the other honour blades in Shin. Plus who would feel the most guilt over breaking the oath but the guy dedicated to honour? Who would feel the most guilt over abandoning their own but the guy dedicating to leadership whose order values protection? Not really evidence-from-the-book-as-is but what-would-be-cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corwin01 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 We have WoB that a desolation occurs when all the Heralds leave Damnation. We also have WoB that 11 parties made the Oathpact, so its logical to assume Honor + the Heralds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 You are right, WoB has it the Oathpact is between Honor and the Heralds: Q: How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? A: The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). source For some reason I used to think the canon was H and C. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysawyg Posted May 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Darn, there goes that (part) of the theory. WoB is interesting though... that, as you say, Cultivation had no part of the oathpact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 This thread may be of interest to you. It covers a lot of the different possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Jezrien. ... I can't think of a good explanation yet so why Hoid tells Taln/Jezrien he's late... I just thought that it was because the Heralds come a year or two before the Desolation and help people prepare. In this case, even if "Taln" were functional, there wasn't significant time between his arrival and the Desolation. OTOH, if it isn't really Taln and Wit knows it, I am confused. I've had similar thoughts and approve of this theory for quite a few reasons, though I'm not very hung up on it being Jezrien. Our five male Heralds are Jezrien, Nalan, Kalak, Taln, and Ishi. Could be Ishi, Jezrien, or Kalak. I lean towards Jezrien or Ishi. Meta evidence: "Taln" arrived at the end of TWoK, and it was supposed to be this big "oh, crap" moment. If it turns out he's just some sort of insane guy, it's lacking in importance. Besides, Wit showed up! "Taln" had no Honorblade, or else his eyes would have been a different color. Multiple personality disorder is a very interesting way to deal with the guilt of abandoning someone to near-eternal torture. "Taln" is obviously supernaturally quick, given his ability to catch darts. Him being a Herald would work very well. "Taln" has knowledge of all the Heralds and the before times. As for evidence to pin "Taln" down as Jezrien, Jezrien had a short black beard in the Prelude, and our madman has dark hair. The beggar in Gavilar's assassination has a black-and-gray beard, and I personally support him as being Jezrien (since Jezrien is drooling). Is there any confirmation for the Jezrien drooling theory, or does it still entirely rest on Nale's ambiguous statement in front of Lift? Given that the other Heralds don't seem to show signs of aging, I find the idea that a black and gray beard suggests that someone is Jezrien puzzling. If anything, a black and gray beard seems like it should be evidence that someone is not Jezrien. The Heralds might look like they cognitively expect to look, so it does seem possible, but it still doesn't seem like supporting evidence. This thread may be of interest to you. It covers a lot of the different possibilities. I hereby renounce my claim to the self-assigned title of Thread Curator. You are doing a better job of it. The title is yours if you want it. OTOH, maybe it is subsumed into your current title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I'm happy with my Words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corwin01 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 These words are accepted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftucker0525 Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I personally like this theory, however, wouldnt a Herald without their Honorblade lose their abilities, i.e. surgebinding, quickness, etc. So when "Taln" caught the Shardblade he must have really caught it. But how can he still have his super-natural quickness without his blade? Also when Taln catches the blade before it kills Amaran, did he really catch it or could he have used a binding to pull it to himself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I personally like this theory, however, wouldnt a Herald without their Honorblade lose their abilities, i.e. surgebinding, quickness, etc. So when "Taln" caught the Shardblade he must have really caught it. But how can he still have his super-natural quickness without his blade? They have powers other than Surgebinding, but require the Honorblades to Surgebind. WoB: Rybal Q: Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are. A: The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Um, sorry, when did Taln catch a Shardblade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysawyg Posted May 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Sorry. That was a typo on my part. My brain meant dart, my fingers typed blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 I like this theory. The problem I see is that Nin/Darkness can surgebind (Darkness was awesome too in the Lift sequence) and his blade is still with the Shin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 Nin's probably the one who went back for his Blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 I like this theory. The problem I see is that Nin/Darkness can surgebind (Darkness was awesome too in the Lift sequence) and his blade is still with the Shin. The Shin only have 8 Blades (including Szeth's). Two are missing - Taln's and one other's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 The Shin only have 8 Blades (including Szeth's). Two are missing - Taln's and one other's. Being a little nitpicky here... they HAD eight Blades. With the loss of Jezrien's Blade, they have seven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 A thought occurs to me. They say they will come to collect Szeth's blade if he dies, but nobody will just kill a shardbearer and leave the blade.Won't the shamans have to come out and take it by force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Feboris Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 That is really interesting and something I have been thinking about for a while, if the shamanate come out to take the honorblade by force, they will notice that the knights have been refounded, what implications will this have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Yet their social hierarchy puts warriors at the bottom, and as soon as you pick up a weapon you're screwed. How do they intend to take anything back by force O_O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Portz he/him Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him. Of course this is a bit obscure, but I never thought they would have to use force to get back Szeths blade. They might not even have to "come out". A thought occurs to me. They say they will come to collect Szeth's blade if he dies, but nobody will just kill a shardbearer and leave the blade.Won't the shamans have to come out and take it by force? EDIT: Typo Edited August 3, 2015 by Atastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypatia she/her Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Now as you talk about it.... Szeth was dead - however this will be possible for the Shin it should happen in the next volume. The Shin are able to go to Urithiru, so it is possible for them to come out. Another option is a link with the honorblade - they were watching the blade, not Szeth and with the separation it would mean the death of the bearer. Perhaps it only disappears... And the tricks with different PoVs - although we know about Szeth and his punishment as a Truthless, for the other characters this will be something new, a way to connect Szeth into the main-story above his role as a assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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