Szeth and the Sons of Fëanor

[ZenBossanova]

Szeth, and even the Shin, are all still something of an enigma. We don't really understand their perspectives and point of view. Is it all just a big cult? Perhaps, but it also reminds me of the seven Sons of Fëanor. 

Fëanor is one of the central characters of JRR Tolkien's Silmarillion. This is a elvish prehistory to Lord of the Rings. Remember the palantir? Fëanor made that when he was bored one day. But it was three holy gems called the Silmarills, that were his masterpiece. He was the most talented and charismatic of all the elves in the First Age. To make a long story short, bad guy/devil named Morgoth steals them, while also causing a lot of trouble. The Valar (think archangels, or demigods) warned him not to pursue. And he humbly accepts their council. 

Ha! No, not Fëanor. He gathers the people of his nation and puts them under an oath. 

Quote

"Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth
a Silmaril. This swear we all:
death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
On the holy mountain hear in witness
and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!"

He later puts greater oaths (curses?) on his kin. This leads to the entire reason most elves were in Middle Earth. In their haste, they committed the first Kinslaying, because other elves would not give/lend their boats. As bad as this was, it was a crime of passion. And things just go downhill from here. Fëanor dies soon after, but his sons are still bond to the oath. 

Later, (2nd Kinslaying) they destroy an entire elvish kingdom in a (failed) attempt to retrieve a Silmarill.

And they do it again (3rd Kinslaying), premeditated and cruel. 

Now, some of the Sons were (other than a little genocide) were really good people (well, you know what I mean). 

Fast forward a bit, and the Maia (~angels) wage war and retrieve the gems and tell the two remaining Sons of Fëanor that they no longer have a right to the gems. 

Now this is the part that makes me think of Szeth. The two best, and only remaining, of the Sons discuss it, and in their mind, they have no choice. 

Quote

Yet Maglor still held back, saying: 'If Manwe and Varda themselves deny the fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?"

And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Iluvatar beyond the Circles of the World?  And by Iluvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not or word.  Who shall release us?'

'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.'

Yet he yielded at last to the will of Maedhros... 

And so they killed again. 

For a better, longer summary https://www.tor.com/search-page/?s=Silmarillion

So, here we have some otherwise good people who go from one atrocity to another, despairing of the oath they made, and yet seeing no other way forward. 

Is Szeth in a similar position? Is this the best way to understand him? 

Edited October 31, 2018 by ZenBossanova

[+Invocation]

I need to get another copy of the Silmarillion. I didn't remember that part. Good connection, though.

[galendo]

 

Quote

Yet Maglor still held back, saying: 'If Manwe and Varda themselves deny the fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?"

And Maedhros answered: 'But how shall our voices reach to Iluvatar beyond the Circles of the World?  Andy by Iluvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not or word.  Who shall release us?'

'If none can release us,' said Maglor, 'then indeed the Everlasting Darkness shall be our lot, whether we keep our oath or break it; but less evil shall we do in the breaking.'

 

[ZenBossanova]

6 hours ago, galendo said:

 

 

Thanks, Galendo. I was looking for the rest of that last night. 

[Vissy]

I always love to see a bit of old Tolkien stuff here. I think the connection is strenuous at best, though the situation may be somewhat analoguous. Szeth, you see, has already broken his oaths. He made Maglor's choice.

[ZenBossanova]

19 hours ago, Vissy said:

I always love to see a bit of old Tolkien stuff here. I think the connection is strenuous at best, though the situation may be somewhat analoguous. Szeth, you see, has already broken his oaths. He made Maglor's choice.

It is the analogy that I was pursuing. I wanted to know why Szeth felt so determined to obey an oath he so clearly despised. 

Szeth only had his oath broken because Kaladin defeated him in battle. Breaking the oath was not his choice. 

It is *why* he felt the way he did, that I want to understand. 

[Vissy]

That is not how Szeth broke his oath. Maglor was defeated in battle as well, but he chose to follow Maedhros' will in pursuing the oath regardless. Szeth chose to break his Truthless oath after being rescued by Nale.

[Calderis]

In both endings, Szeth's realization and choice were made before, and were the direct cause of, his defeat. 

Kaladin confronts him and makes him see the rationalizations he's made, and the cowardice, in placing the responsibility for his actions on others. 

He says "then I was never Truthless" and chooses not to block Kaladin attack. He was defeated because he chose to stop fighting and die. That was his first act of rebellion. "The only life he was forbidden to take was his own."

[Guest Edonidd]

On 10/31/2018 at 0:25 AM, Invocation said:

I need to get another copy of the Silmarillion. I didn't remember that part. Good connection, though.

Or you could just staple your own genitals to the wall.

 

I'm not sure which one would be more productive, but I'm pretty sure one is much less painful than the other.  Because those staples only hurt for a minute or two.

[+Invocation]

46 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

Or you could just staple your own genitals to the wall.

 

I'm not sure which one would be more productive, but I'm pretty sure one is much less painful than the other.  Because those staples only hurt for a minute or two.

What do you have against the Silmarillon? It's quite interesting.

[Steel Inquisitive]

The Silmarilion is one of my favorites! (Although I will admit it could be tedious in some parts... But on the other hand it was a history book for middle-earth sooo what could you expect?) 

1 hour ago, Edonidd said:

Or you could just staple your own genitals to the wall.

 

I'm not sure which one would be more productive, but I'm pretty sure one is much less painful than the other.  Because those staples only hurt for a minute or two.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Steel Inqusitive

[ZenBossanova]

On 11/2/2018 at 0:31 AM, Vissy said:

That is not how Szeth broke his oath. Maglor was defeated in battle as well, but he chose to follow Maedhros' will in pursuing the oath regardless. Szeth chose to break his Truthless oath after being rescued by Nale.

I wouldn't characterize what Szeth did as breaking, so much as realizing his oath never applied in the first place. But we may need to wait until Stones Unhallowed to understand Shin oaths better. And in particular why he was determined to obey even when he was committing atrocities. That why is what I want to understand. 

Oh, and Maglor wasn't ever defeated in battle, unless you mean something like the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The Silmarillion has him wandering off at the end and not seen again, while The Lay of Beren & Luthien has him throwing himself into the sea. 

On 11/2/2018 at 1:10 PM, Edonidd said:

Or you could just staple your own genitals to the wall.

The first time I tried to read it, it was easy to get lost. Take a look at the summaries Tor has been doing. The Silmarillion may even be better than The Lord of the Rings, though it is very different. 

Also, I named my husky Beren. 

[Vissy]

I loved Silmarillion, possibly even more than LotR itself. But what I meant was that Maedhros and Maglor were both defeated, not necessarily in battle, but everything they had sought for had failed and brought them to ruin. When they entered Eönwë's camp, they had been all but defeated. 

[Mandrarin]

I've always found this puzzling about Seth. When I was reading, to me it seems that he deeply believes in some moral code imposed by the Shin that names him Truthless. This seems entirely external; he believes he told the truth when he said that the Radiants returned, but 'society' sees it different and he accepts fully that he is named Truthless (and all that comes with that). But then, in WoR, he seems to realize that there is now proof that he was right about the return, and now makes the fully internal decision that he is no longer Truthless, all by himself. I would have thought that, even with proof of the truth, he would still need the external validation that he is right and no longer Truthless.

 

[Calderis]

@Mandrarin he had so much faith in that external system, that he did not believe that it could be wrong.

Proving the system wrong negated the need for that validation.