In praise of how Brandon handles neuro-atypical characters

[shawnhargreaves]

I'm surprised to see so little discussion about one of my favorite aspects of Stormlight, so figured I would start a new thread and see if I can't kickstart more appreciation for how amazingly well Brandon is writing this.

 

Many have noted that key Stormlight characters are not what one might describe as neuro-typical:

• Kaladin has clinical depression and seasonal affective disorder  (I list these separately although the symptoms are similar, because we see several bouts of depression independent of the Weepings)
   
• Shallan has many of the classic coping mechanisms developed by abuse survivors: repressed memories, difficulty trusting others, multiple layers of fabrication in her dealings with others because she defaults to assuming the truth needs to be protected and hidden.
   
• Renarin is some distance along the Autism spectrum, suffering from mild Asperger's.

 

This lends itself to several avenues of speculation:

• We know the Nahel bond requires a prospective Radiant to be "broken" before it can be established.  Is this the same thing as the aforementioned neuro-atypicalities, in which case can we expect all future Radiants to have equivalent issues of their own?
   
• If so, what's going on with Dalinar, Jasnah, Lift, etc?
   
• Since Brandon obviously has a theme of exploring lead characters with unusual neuro characteristics in Stormlight, what else might we see him tackle in future installments?  I'd love to see a manic depressive character.  How about schizophrenia?   What's the betting that Taln has a severe case of PTSD?

 

But more importantly, I'm blown away by how sensitively Brandon has handled these issues in the two books we've seen so far.  This subject matter is rarely addressed in the fantasy genre, and riddled with traps for authors of any genre, but so far Brandon has dodged every pitfall:

• Defining characters by their ailment.  Nobody wants to read about 1D caricatures like the depressed surgeon or the autistic prince, but Brandon creates interesting, fully fledged individuals who have plenty else going on to the point where an inattentive reader could enjoy the books without even noticing this aspect of the characters.
   
• Making excuses for their weaknesses.  Kaladin isn't awesome for a guy who was so dang depressed it took an effort for him to even drag himself out of bed that morning - he's just flat out awesome by any standard you care to measure him by.  I particularly appreciate this about Renarin, who hasn't had his big awesome moment yet - there's plenty of foreshadowing that such a thing is coming, but at this point most in-world characters don't get Renarin and have no idea what he is good for.  Love that Brandon doesn't give him any outs along the lines of "well, he did ok considering..."
   
• Minimizing their challenges.  It's all too easy to present a character who has major difficulties but then sorta forget those difficulties and have them go on to do awesome stuff like it didn't even matter.  But no.  Kaladin's depression massively holds him back in more than one place.  Shallan's secretiveness and inability to trust (esp. Jasnah) causes needless complications.  We're still waiting for a Renarin POV, but it's pretty obvious he was fighting his way through some major roadblocks in places that could have been plain sailing for someone with different neurology.

These are complex, realistic characters who have serious impediments that cause them major difficulties, yet refuse to be defined by these impediments and refuse to accept limits on what they can achieve.

 

Role models for us all, and hats of to Brandon for writing this so well!

Edited May 6, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[kaellok]

There's a few threads where one character or another, and how Brandon handled them, is specifically mentioned.  I know of a couple different Kaladin threads I've participated in where I've railed against him in WoR (because reasons that don't matter here) while acknowledging (sometimes sooner than others) how realistic a portrayal it is.  Or another thread where I get on a soapbox and declare how awesome he did with Shallan (because he did.  For real.  Like, seriously, just an amazing job).  Or a couple different threads where people have pointed out Relarin, and exactly how and why he's awesome (even though when reading the books originally I had literally no opinion on him.  The only character I had no opinion on, until some of the posts pointed out how subtly it was shown what a strong badass he really is.)

 

So, kudos to bringing a thread together to acknowledge all at once, in one place.  It's about time someone did it!

[Delightful]

On the topic of PTSD, I'm fairly certain, from what Brandon's said sometime somewhere, that most bridgemen suffered from it. They found it hard to do anything or take interest in anything sometimes for a couple days after a bridgerun.  (It might have not been PTSD, it might have been some kind of battle shock. I'm not sure. If you haven't noticed, I don't remember where he said it to find the quote ).

 

Also, Dabbid never speaks, I presume because of some kind of battle shock/PTSD.

[Swimmingly]

When all the fighting dies down, I think we're going to have quite a few very damaged individuals: What do you do with crippling mental illness and magic powers when you've already saved the world? The old Knights seemed to deal with it by institutionalising and cooperating heavily, but that might not be an option with the new Knights forged in the chaos of the Ever storm...

[shawnhargreaves]

On the topic of PTSD, I'm fairly certain, from what Brandon's said sometime somewhere, that most bridgemen suffered from it. They found it hard to do anything or take interest in anything sometimes for a couple days after a bridgerun.  (It might have not been PTSD, it might have been some kind of battle shock.

 

The behavior of the bridgemen during WoK seems more like combat stress reaction (CSR) than post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).   CSR can often be a precursor of PTSD, but can also occur independently.

 

In addition to emotional numbing, PTSD usually causes recurring flashback memories of the traumatic event, difficulty sleeping, and hypervigilance, none of which match Bridge 4.

 

Taln's reaction to Shallan using lightweaving, though...  to me that had the feel of a hypervigilant startle response.

[Delightful]

The behavior of the bridgemen during WoK seems more like combat stress reaction (CSR) than post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).   CSR can often be a precursor of PTSD, but can also occur independently.

 

In addition to emotional numbing, PTSD usually causes recurring flashback memories of the traumatic event, difficulty sleeping, and hypervigilance, none of which match Bridge 4.

 

Taln's reaction to Shallan using lightweaving, though...  to me that had the feel of a hypervigilant startle response.

I will defer to your knowledge since I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this kind of thing. I just remembered there was *something* about the bridgemen that was related.

[Argent]

We should probably be careful in assuming that all the lead characters will be neuro-atypical - Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin are masterfully handled, and you could probably make a (not very strong) similar case for Dalinar, but handing every major character a psychological disorder undermines the severity of those disorders in our world, I think. Up to one point it's empowering and uplifting. Past that it's comical, if not disrespectful. I doubt this will become a real concern, but it's something we should be aware of when discussing those things - having (had) a difficult life and dealing with issues is not always the same as living with a mental illness.

[Swimmingly]

Well, if some mental illness is a prerequisite to being a Knight, then it's just another piece of worldbuilding. Besides, as has been pointed out, the illnesses aren't treated as 'diseases' here. They're treated as character flaws - Kaladin has a tendency to be fatalistic and pessimistic, to a point that he's clearly depressed. Mental illness can be a difficult thing to pinpoint, exactly. I have ADHD. However, there isn't some switch in my brain that says on-off. It's a result of every factor I've ever lived with to some extent. PTSD and memory-surpression are more clearly diagnosable, and have clearer causes, but just because it's possible to tell exactly how they came about and how they're an exaggeration of healthy, normal behaviour doesn't mean they aren't a real problem. It's like a slowly heating room; at some point, no matter that you could deal with every previous level of heat as it mounted, it gets too hot to handle.

[Numb]

We should probably be careful in assuming that all the lead characters will be neuro-atypical - Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin are masterfully handled, and you could probably make a (not very strong) similar case for Dalinar, but handing every major character a psychological disorder undermines the severity of those disorders in our world, I think. Up to one point it's empowering and uplifting. Past that it's comical, if not disrespectful. I doubt this will become a real concern, but it's something we should be aware of when discussing those things - having (had) a difficult life and dealing with issues is not always the same as living with a mental illness.

 

Well Mistborn had most of the characters being neuro-atypical as well. It may just be part of Sandersons writing style.

[Meg]

... but handing every major character a psychological disorder undermines the severity of those disorders in our world, I think. Up to one point it's empowering and uplifting. Past that it's comical, if not disrespectful. I doubt this will become a real concern, but it's something we should be aware of when discussing those things - having (had) a difficult life and dealing with issues is not always the same as living with a mental illness.

This forums and this thread is about fictional characters in a fictional world. Though most of the characters are humans I'm sure the users don't mistake the Cosmere -- and here Roshar -- with Real Life.

I'd like to add Teft, who surely experienced a traumatic event when the Envisagers were hanged and who, too, has to handle him feeling guilty for that event.

Though I'm not sure that each and every such character will become a Knight Radiant, I'm surely curious about his future.

And there's Lopen who's arm started to regrow. If the ability to use Stormlight is always bound to a spren, then there ought to be one for him.

I wouldn't say Lopen has psychological problems (though his sheer optimism seems kind of abnormal, at least compared to his environment). But I go with the premise, he's mentally sound and ask, whether perhaps severe injuries could change the sDNA as does psychological/mental injuries.

And yes: Brandon did include such problems very well. They are part of the characters, which are amazingly complex.

[kari-no-sugata]

Hi shawnhargreaves, good topic. I think the main reason why there isn't much specific discussion is that not many people are particularly familiar with the details of this topic. I enjoy a good science book (though spend much of my reading time on fiction) and even I am not  familiar even with the term "neuro-atypical".

 

I do have a question for you (and anyone else familiar with the subject): I have noticed that Shallan is "suspiciously" good at mental recovery in general and in particular avoids getting bogged down with negative emotions. Maybe the best example is in the chasm scenes with Kaladin - she's in very poor humour when he wakes her up from "sleep" but two pages later she's back to "normal" and even wondering why she was so grumpy earlier.

 

Shallan's visual memory is incredible and she also has control over it - she can memorise scenes and also forget them. There are hints to the possibility that she can "transform" other peoples' emotions to a small degree with Stormlight. If so, maybe she can transform herself too. To mix Cosmere metaphors it's like she's capable of unconsciously Soothing her negative emotions.

 

So, to get to my question: do you think I'm over-interpreting this or is this common enough that it's plausibly natural or do you this it's possible that there is something supernatural here?

 

 

PS I have a somewhat related post here:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7886-kaladin-and-others-broke-and-scarred/#entry133140

 

PPS I disagree that Shallan has "difficulty trusting others". I actually feel like it's the opposite, more often than not. Consider this: who is the first Radiant to come forth to Dalinar and admit it? His own son, Renarin? No. His own niece, Jasnah? No. Kaladin is basically forced to come out due to circumstances and I have a vague memory of him admitting to himself that he would probably never have voluntarily told Dalinar. Shallan does voluntarily tell Dalinar and she knows him far less than the others - that conversation is the third between them that we see and the first time they ever have a private conversation!

[Swimmingly]

So you're saying that she trusts people remarkably easily, but instually hides anything she does not have to reveal?

[maxal]

It is funny since I never branded any character as being neuro-atypical.

 

I thought Shallan clearly had some trauma due to her childhood, but it felt like she was slowly coming out of it. If not for her tragic life, she would probably have come out as perfectly neuro-typical.

 

I thought Kaladin was depressed, but after being all he has been through, it was understandable. Seasonal depression? I always assumed it was an early effect of an early pre-bonding to Syl or a premonition of him becoming a Windrunner. I always assumed ALL Windrunner got depressed during the weeping...

 

I never thought that Renarin was autistic. He doesn't quite fit the autistic person I do have met. I thought he was too normal. He has some issues socializing (you don't need to be neuro-atypical for that) but I never identified this as being part of the autistic spectrum, especially not Asperger. Asperger are quite distinctive: they are smart, but they don't understand emotions, they cannot read people either, they cannot show compassion, etc. An autism diagnostic rarely come alone. Most of those kids are also diagnostic with opposition trouble and severe anxiety. There are a whole bunch of mommies with kids on the autistic spectrum on another forum I go and that's pretty much how it goes. As far as I know, Renarin does not exhibit none of these things nor do he behaves as those kids do (weak evidence as that is). In fact, he shows remarkable sensitivity to his brother's emotions, especially in WoK where he tried anger management a few times. Also, mild autistic diagnostic (not asperger) is ofter seen combined with ADHD. Albeit, these are observations I have made throughout kids I do know, people I also know, people and kids on the Internet.

 

This is nothing scientific.

 

I am just ranting over the fact Renarin does not appear autistic to me, personally. Now before someones calls it out, this is an opinion and an observation, not a fact. I am not saying he isn't just that I do not picture him as such based on my own personal experience.

 

In fact, the only signs I recalled reading about potential autism are his little box and his habit of describing all the wines in large detail to his brother. I understand there are different level of autism, but I still have trouble picturing Renarin as one. In fact, childhood sickness and mother's death alone may be able to explain some of his behavior. Do we have canon Renarin actually is autistic because I really never read him as such?

[FeatherWriter]

We have both Word of Brandon (question 2) and knoweldge that Brandon consulted multiple ASD people to help him write Renarin's character correctly. Including Kogiopsis's roommate, Ellie, who is the one who "figured it out." Ellie noticed Renarin behaving similarly to the way that she behaved and reacted and wondered if he might be neuroatypical in the same way that she was. Which I'll say is a tribute to Brandon's ability to portray an ASD character so well and so accurately.

 

Ellie's figuring this out, thus propted Kogi to ask the question and get confirmation. Which then led to Brandon asking Ellie if she could help out with some of Renarin's character stuff. She's mentioned in the acknowledgements of Words of Radiance. Elise Warren, towards the bottom of the second page.

 

So yes, it's rather well established at this point. That one's not really up for debate.

[Greywatch]

I don't understand why you've made all these assumptions and expect us to give credit when you've admitted it's all your opinion?

I don't know enough about depression, but yeah, I've seen seasonal affective disorder, and it very strongly affects people's mood and motivation. During the Weeping, which is an entire month of rain and overcast weather, it is very likely for someone with the disorder to feel extremely down and lack motivation to go about their daily life. It's canon that Kaladin has felt this way during the Weepings.

Shallan does have several coping mechanisms! You're right! If she didn't suffer trauma, she would probably be alright! But she suffered trauma. So she's been coping with it.

And yes, Renarin is autistic. The thing about autism being a spectrum is that no one person with autism is going to act or react or look like anyone else with autism. If you know one person with autism, then you know ONE person with autism.

EDIT: Oop, Feather got there ahead of me.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Greywatch

[Swimmingly]

He doesn't get a lot of screen time, either, which probably plays into it, and he's definetly capable of interaction without undue stress

[BeneathSilverStars]

I never thought that Renarin was autistic. He doesn't quite fit the autistic person I do have met.

 

Everyone's different. That's one of the really important things about representation, getting rid of stereotypes and showing that not everyone with the same neurotype is the same, or even similar! Being autistic is just one facet of Renarin's character. He's a lot more complicated than that one thing, no matter how important it might be, and he, just like every other neuro-atypical person out there, is not going to perfectly fit everyone's stereotyped expectations.

 

It makes sense to me that Renarin is on the autistic spectrum. My little brother has Aspergers, and he is definitely not exactly like Renarin, or any other autistic person out there! But he's sure closer to Renarin than he is to your narrow, negative description. Maybe you can't see how Renarin is neuro-atypical, but I can, and whether or not you can see it, it's canon.

[theravenchilde]

He doesn't get a lot of screen time, either, which probably plays into it, and he's definetly capable of interaction without undue stress

This is definitely why I never saw any spectrum-pings from him, and I'm a special ed major. Diagnosing autism is literally going to be my job, and I missed Renarin completely. However, given the evidence and quotations from him, out of context and where I am actually paying attention to him, yeah, he probably could qualify as threshold ASD. Probably not IEP worthy, I think, but I still don't have the data points to back that up.

 

If anyone wants me to go into the actual differences between various Autism Spectrum Disorder designations, in regards to before and after Aspergers was folded into the ASD definition, I can in varying degrees of detail.

[maxal]

I don't understand why you've made all these assumptions and expect us to give credit when you've admitted it's all your opinion?

 

 

Every single post is someone's opinion and every opinion is supported by assumptions.

 

I have never read any of those characters as neuro-atypical and I have explained why. It was my perception as I read the book and I thought to share it. Of course, it is my opinion, it is how I viewed it. It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong, it doesn't matter if we have a WoB on it I haven't read, I am just expressing how I interpreted those characters. I did not think Renarin was autistic when I read both books. It didn't even cross my mind for all the reasons I mentioned before. I am not an expert nor did I claimed I was and made good care to indicate where my assumptions came from. It is worth what it is worth.  

 

Why do you assume I expect credit for it? I do not expect credit for any post I make. They are just thoughts, but really if you prefer, I'll keep it to myself. They seem so disruptive lately.

 

 

We have both Word of Brandon (question 2) and knoweldge that Brandon consulted multiple ASD people to help him write Renarin's character correctly. Including Kogiopsis's roommate, Ellie, who is the one who "figured it out." Ellie noticed Renarin behaving similarly to the way that she behaved and reacted and wondered if he might be neuroatypical in the same way that she was. Which I'll say is a tribute to Brandon's ability to portray an ASD character so well and so accurately.

 

 

Well that settles it then.

 

 

Everyone's different. That's one of the really important things about representation, getting rid of stereotypes and showing that not everyone with the same neurotype is the same, or even similar! Being autistic is just one facet of Renarin's character. He's a lot more complicated than that one thing, no matter how important it might be, and he, just like every other neuro-atypical person out there, is not going to perfectly fit everyone's stereotyped expectations.

 

It makes sense to me that Renarin is on the autistic spectrum. My little brother has Aspergers, and he is definitely not exactly like Renarin, or any other autistic person out there! But he's sure closer to Renarin than he is to your narrow, negative description. Maybe you can't see how Renarin is neuro-atypical, but I can, and whether or not you can see it, it's canon.

 

My "narrow, negative description" was provided by mothers of kids diagnostic autistic among other things. They were kind enough to express the difficulties in dealing and raising an autistic child. Their kids do have multiple diagnostic and yes "lack of empathy" and "trouble reading emotions" is something they struggle with an every day basis. I understand not every autistic will have the same challenges, but these two seemed to be quite widely spread.

 

I should probably also mention this kid at the day care who is autistic. I should probably mention how I try every day to great him positively, to tell him I am happy to see him, but that he should express it calmly without scratching. Or maybe I should mention how I tell him the baby too is happy to see him and that I understand he is happy to see the baby, but that the baby would prefer if he looked at it with his eyes and not his hands, but you are right I am stuck within my "stereotyped expectations" and my "stereotyped expectations" are only based on real life persons. It is true however I was not able to meet sufficient people to find someone who would fit with Renarin diagnostic thus preventing me from identifying him as such. I suppose I am close-minded then for not "seeing this" as I read a book.

[Kogiopsis]

Maxal, I think what may be going on here is that you're trying to apply behavior of children to an adult character - that, and the perception of autism from a parent/outsider's perspective is vastly different than the perspective of autistic people themselves.  This, among other things, is why most ASD people I know can't stand organizations like Autism Speaks, which has no ASD people on its governing board.  I don't know if you've had a chance to talk to ASD people who are, say, 20 or older about the experience of being young (and often undiagnosed) in public schools?  (Being constantly told to stop stimming, forced into social situations, constantly overstimulated with no way to control their environment, etc - there are reasons autistic kids aren't always on their best behavior around neurotypical kids of similar ages.)  It's a vastly different conversation.  

 

Anyhow, the point is - a lot ASD people develop coping strategies that let them 'pass' as neurotypical by the time they reach adulthood.  So no, Renarin doesn't act like the autistic kids you know - because he's an autistic 20 year-old, not a preschooler, and he's adjusted his behavior to allow him to function in the world as much as possible.  If you look for it like that, it's a great deal more visible.

 

(Also, tangential to this conversation but relevant to Renarin in general, I'd like to gently remind you that he actually does express suicidal ideation in Way of Kings:

 

"Then perhaps the monster would have swept me off the plateau," Renarin said bitterly, "and I would no longer be such a useless drain on everyone's time."

"Don't say such things!  Not even in jest."

"Was it jest?"

p. 281, for reference.  Obviously ideation isn't equivalent to actually being a suicide risk, but Renarin is certainly a great deal closer to it than most people.)

[shawnhargreaves]

I do have a question for you (and anyone else familiar with the subject): I have noticed that Shallan is "suspiciously" good at mental recovery in general and in particular avoids getting bogged down with negative emotions. Maybe the best example is in the chasm scenes with Kaladin - she's in very poor humour when he wakes her up from "sleep" but two pages later she's back to "normal" and even wondering why she was so grumpy earlier.

 

Shallan's visual memory is incredible and she also has control over it - she can memorise scenes and also forget them. There are hints to the possibility that she can "transform" other peoples' emotions to a small degree with Stormlight. If so, maybe she can transform herself too. To mix Cosmere metaphors it's like she's capable of unconsciously Soothing her negative emotions.

 

So, to get to my question: do you think I'm over-interpreting this or is this common enough that it's plausibly natural or do you this it's possible that there is something supernatural here?

 

Good question!  I definitely think you are on to something with Shallan's power of visual memory and using "lies" (deliberately positive reinterpretations of how she sees other people) to effect transformation.  I think that's more to do with her Radiant powers, though  (in some way we don't yet understand as it isn't simple Surgebinding) rather than a remnant of her abuse.

I wouldn't call myself an expert on this, though.   I have second hand experience where people close to me have been affected by issues not identical but related to what Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin go through, so I know enough to recognize when a portrayal feels right, but I haven't studied any of this in detail.  My knowledge of PTSD is third hand from reading about it and talking to others.

(odd - I felt uncomfortable writing that paragraph, like I was betraying confidences about my friends and family, even though I left out anything that could even remotely be considered identifying information)

 

Everyone's different. That's one of the really important things about representation, getting rid of stereotypes and showing that not everyone with the same neurotype is the same, or even similar! Being autistic is just one facet of Renarin's character.

 

Just the same as how neurotypical (whatever that even means!) people are infinitely varied in their character and personalities.

An interesting point brought up earlier in this thread is how Shallan is different from Kaladin and Renarin in that her issues are a result of abuse rather than an original part of her.  This got me thinking about Stormlight healing and its relationship to the Cognitive side of things.

We know Stormlight can perform amazing healings, but only when this fits the self-image of the individual.  Lopen can regrow his missing arm because he always imagined it was still there.  But Kaladin cannot get rid of his slave brand because he considers that a part of himself  (random prediction for future books: Kaladin will eventually have some kind of epiphany and eject that branding, after which Gaz will use Shallan-squire powers to heal his missing eye...)

So could Kaladin heal his depression, or Renarin his autism?  So far it looks like not, and I hope it stays that way.  These things are a fundamental part of who they are, not some external attribute that could be removed while leaving the same person behind.  I don't ever want to read a scene where Renarin uses his newfound Radiant powers to "fix" himself.  It's really, really hard to be him, but he's wonderful just the way he is!  (and yes, I am projecting attitudes about my real world loved ones here).

And what about Shallan?  She wasn't born that way - it was done to her, so could it be undone?  We know Cosmere magic can retroactively change the past (Forging) but when you Forge a person, the result is not the same person you started with.  A Shallan who had a happy childhood with two loving parents would not be the same Shallan we know and love today.  Assuming she gets the power to "fix" this part of herself, would she do it?  Should she?

This ties in with the end goal of a lot of abuse survivor counseling.  An crucial early step is to stop repressing the memories of abuse, but just remembering what happened is not enough to be healthy and balanced.  It is hugely desirable to reach the point where you are able to say that, although something horrific happened in the past and of course you are not glad about that, you do like the person you have become today, and that person is a direct result of all the experiences which led up to becoming who they are.  Incredibly hard thing to accept, but incredibly liberating once done.

How amazing would it be if Shallan someday understands how to heal her past, but decides not to do it and instead speaks a Truth,  "these experiences made me who I am, and I like who I am"?

Edited May 7, 2014 by shawnhargreaves

[leinton]

I'm just going to go over the basics of autism spectrum disorder. These are the bare basics, mind. Not all the nitty gritty details. One of the most fascinating things about neurotypes is that genetics and biology don't code for behaviors, they code for circumstances. That's why in all mental disorders, there are a wide range of possible symptoms.

 

Anyway, there are two overarching evaluations to be on the spectrum. The first is impairment in social skills and communication. This can take place in many ways. One common one is refusal to make eye contact. Another is delayed speech (this one is interesting, as while they don't speak until a later age than an allistic kid would, when they start speaking it is in full sentences). They tend to be limited in understand verbal and nonverbal cues (especially facial expressions). An autistic child tends to not want to play with other children. They're less likely to start conversations. In extreme cases, they may have face blindness, which is essentially the inability to recognize people by faces.

 

The second evaluation is restrictive interests and repetitive behaviors. The repetitive behaviors are simply a more extreme form of stimulating behaviors that are healthy not only in all humans, but most if not all mammals and birds. Essentially, when we get stressed, we tend to put our bodies into motion. Flipping things, pacing, rocking, flapping arms, and anything else like that. Autistic people tend to do these behaviors more often than an allistic person would. The limited interests are really interesting. Autistic children will find a toy, let's say in this case a truck. They will play with just one wheel on that truck. That's good enough for them and they're happy doing it! As the person ages, it will generally be more about subject material though. My girlfriend, who is autistic, specializes in birds. She knows a lot of random things about most animals, but she focuses almost all of her attention on birds. The restricted interests can change. My girlfriend knows more about mammals and dinosaurs than other animals because in her past, her interests turned to them. The extreme of this is the oh so well known (and oh so very rare) savant. 

 

Now as Kogi said, these behaviors change as an autistic person ages. The impairment in social communication tends to decrease. Why? Just because they don't have an innate ability to comprehend social context doesn't mean they can't learn. It takes time and practice, but every conversation is a chance to practice. They also do tend to just enjoy social contact more as they age. They're not antisocial or anything. The stimming behaviors tend to diminish as well, and sometimes will disappear almost entirely (not for Renarin though). Autistic adults are very capable people, and often times you won't even notice that they have a different neurotype. The only way I figured it out with my girlfriend was when I asked why she always avoided eye contact. None of her other symptoms were anything I'd have even noticed until she said "oh I have asperger's". 

 

The final thing to remember about ASD is the purpose behind its name. Autism Spectrum Disorder. Focus on the word "spectrum". The reason they use that word is because among all those symptoms I just discussed, each can be seen as being on a scale. Sometimes, people will have all the symptoms, but they're all mild. Another might not have the repetitive behaviors at all, but has an extremely limited interest in just one topic, while being just barely below average in social interaction. Another may have extreme variants of all the symptoms. It's a huge, huge, huuuuge spectrum. I hope this clears some things up?

[shawnhargreaves]

Now as Kogi said, these behaviors change as an autistic person ages. The impairment in social communication tends to decrease. Why? Just because they don't have an innate ability to comprehend social context doesn't mean they can't learn.

 

Awesome explanation, thanks for taking the time to write this up!

 

Do you think anyone really has an innate ability to comprehend social context, though?   I suspect this is something everyone has to learn, and it's just that some of us learn it faster than others.

 

I'm not autistic, but was way behind most of my peers in figuring social stuff out :-)

[BeneathSilverStars]

It is true however I was not able to meet sufficient people to find someone who would fit with Renarin diagnostic thus preventing me from identifying him as such. I suppose I am close-minded then for not "seeing this" as I read a book.

 

It's completely okay that you didn't notice it? I didn't recognize it myself, either! I didn't pay much attention to Renarin at all until I joined fandom. I didn't like either of the Kholin brothers, actually, I was too busy looking forward to Shallan and Kaladin, heheh.

 

But now I am in fandom, and I've had opportunities to discuss other characters and give them the attention they deserve. I definitely didn't discover that Renarin is on the autism spectrum for myself. But now that it's been pointed out, I can see it! I guess I don't get why you're arguing "I don't really think he has it, because I didn't recognize it", when other people have recognized it, and explained it.

Edited May 7, 2014 by BeneathSilverStars

[theravenchilde]

 [snipped, bold mine]

 

The final thing to remember about ASD is the purpose behind its name. Autism Spectrum Disorder. Focus on the word "spectrum". The reason they use that word is because among all those symptoms I just discussed, each can be seen as being on a scale. Sometimes, people will have all the symptoms, but they're all mild. Another might not have the repetitive behaviors at all, but has an extremely limited interest in just one topic, while being just barely below average in social interaction. Another may have extreme variants of all the symptoms. It's a huge, huge, huuuuge spectrum. I hope this clears some things up?

 

Oh, I'm going to talk about the spectrum part of Leinton's explanation, since this can get more into psychological and federal definitions, and again, my job!

 

Autism Spectrum Disorder is a very, very wide umbrella term used to describe and categorize a number of developmental disorders (not to be confused with developmental delays, though they are similar. A delay may be what you described, shawnhargreaves, just learning social or other skills slower than typical. A disorder is a specific impairment in that area of functioning to a severe enough degree intervention is required). Its not just "autism, high functioning autism, aspergers, etc" but, under the new Diagnostics manual (DSM V) a broad category of ASD with specifiers denoting severity and ability.You don't either have autism or not. There's a very gray area around the legal definition threshold set approximately at Aspergers syndrome. There are plenty of people on the other side of that threshold who, while their symptoms may not qualify for an IEP (individualized education plan, which includes the academic diagnosis but not always a medical one), do essentially have autism and get to flounder around in that gray area, which sucks, and get pretty much no help.

 

I grew up in that gray area. I think Renarin did too (my assumption is subject to change as I gather more data on Renarin's behavior, with Feather being my best source. p sure she has everything he has ever said ever memorized). I can't say whether or not he'd get a medical diagnosis or an IEP, but I doubt it, jk he would under multiple disabilities, as the seizures would definitely negatively impact his ability to learn, as it seems his coping skills would have been able to hide any problems (not that he shouldn't have gotten help, but considering how little attention people pay to him, including myself, he could have easily slipped under the radar). Since we have no flashbacks on his childhood, where symptoms would first manifest and be the most obvious, I don't want to be definitive, but WoB confirms text is consistent with general symptoms of ASD. He's on the spectrum, but in the lighter end. I must point out, though, that high functioning autism would have a language delay associated with it as well that Renarin does not present, making Aspergers or a severe social development delay, along with his seizures, a more likely diagnosis.

 

Spectrum. Not just autism. Lots of thing that all share symptoms. Renarin's on it.