Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a Guided Shardmissile, don’t you?

[Stormfather-in-Law]

Well, during the final fight with Szeth, Syl begins to take whatever form Kaladin thinks of in his mind. "Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a spear, don’t you?"

 

You guys probably remember the scene, as it's pretty dramatic: "He dove for Szeth, coat flapping, spear pointed for the man’s heart. Szeth got out of the way, but Kaladin dropped the spear and swung his hand in a great arc. Syl formed an axehead halberd. It came within inches of Szeth’s face. The assassin cursed, but responded with his Blade. A shield was in Kaladin’s hand a split second later, and he slammed away the attack. Syl shattered even as he did so, forming back into a sword as Kaladin thrust forward with empty hands. The sword appeared, and the weapon bit deeply into Szeth’s shoulder."

 

So a radiant spren can adapt in a blink, according to thought. As they're physical manifestations of thoughts, that makes sense. And I think the limit is roughly human-sized, according to a WOB. But that's pretty big.

 

Now, combine this thought with the fact that Adolin talks about being able to throw his (dead) Shardblade. If the user wills it, the blade will stay even after it is thrown. So the blade or whatever doesn't have to stay in contact with the person.

 

So I wonder what the limits of this are. Being that I don't necessarily understand the Cognitive realm and its effects like some here, well, that's what I'd like to know. There may be an explanation that's easy. But if the spren effectively becomes whatever you imagine, I wondered while reading why Kaladin couldn't just imagine Syl already piercing Szeth, and it just is. Or, why couldn't he send her flying towards Szeth at the speed of thought, no matter where he dodges, effectively becoming a guided MisSyl*?

 

The knowledge of some folks here amazes me. So fill me in: is this possible, and just waiting for another oath or ability? Or is it beyond spren abilities for reasons I don't yet know?

 

 

* I'll be here all week. BaDUM!

[PorridgeBrick]

Upvotes for that title alone.

As for the guided bit, I think Sprenblades require constant physical contact to move and change. And for why nobody uses projectile weapons, I'm not quite sure.

Edited May 2, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[hoser]

Brilliant and hilarious! 

 

On a boring note: to affect invested objects, one generally needs "much" more investiture.  While Szeth is invested, I don't think Kaladin can just imagine the Shardblade inside him.  I think he might be able to do that with people who are not infused, but maybe there is some limitation on Syl occupying the same space as another object.  Jasnah's trick with the thieves sort of worked like that. 

 

Imagining a Shardweapon traveling at great speed seems like it might work.  It seems OP though.  A Knight could just have it scythe down an army in seconds.  I would guess Brandon would have to find a way to limit it.  Maybe they can only initiate an action when it is in contact with the Knight?  OTOH, Shallan was able to program her illusions with complex sequences. 

Edited May 2, 2014 by hoser

[lyht]

Personally, I think it is totally possible, but mostly limited by the perceptions of the people. If you read Defending Elysium, Brandon has had ideas of brain-created weapons that are very fast, powerful, and focused, and I wouldn't be suprised if that was possible in this universe as well. But nobody thinks like that. The thought of a projectile weapon faster than an arrow may be tricky to grasp.

[kaellok]

Syl made a pretty big deal out of Kaladin touching her hand before he leveled up; to me, this implies that touch is required.  It would also help tamp down on near-ludicrous amount of destructive power that would otherwise be possible ("Turn into a really long and thin rope and fly through the enemy army that is still miles away while I take a nap!")

[Tempus]

From what we've seen of soulcasting, forging, and other cognitive transformations, there are a few things that may or may not be true.

 

• The transformations affect a cognitive entity as a whole. A person views themselves as a whole, and a table views itself as a whole. You wouldn't be able to transform a shardblade to be piercing a person because you would also need to transform the person as well - two different wholes.

 

• You don't seem to be able to impart energy to a cognitively transformed object. Cognitive transformations don't seem to give things like kinetic energy, instant heat, or other forms of energy. Those can occur as a result of the transformation though, like Jasnah's transformation of smoke, which resulted in a violent decompression from pressure inequalities.

 

• Anything invested is harder to transform. People are invested, all people. Anyone with magic is more invested, and anyone actively using magic is super duper more invested. Even objects and animals are a little invested - clues suggest that the more complex a thing is, the more invested it is, especially with regards to life.

 

• To transform something into something cognitively, you have to understand it fairly well (as demonstrated by Forging). So Kaladin couldn't transform Syl into a crossbow unless he knew how a crossbow worked (even if he couldn't build one by hand). Likewise, a guided shardmissile would probably require someone with knowledge of advanced ballistics, aerodynamics, and explosives.

[Pechvarry]

• Your title
• MisSyl
• Your incredible handle

That's 3 reasons for an upvote, and I only have 1 to give (though that last reason will get caught in a future post where you point out nothing noteworthy and wonder where the upvote came from).

 

This is an interesting line of thought.  I hope a trained KR can't kill people with their spren/brain.  Maybe something as simple as the innate spark of investiture all intelligent life has is enough to block the coalesced-to-physical process (though obviously not the cut-through-your-soul-once-physical part).  But this still doesn't block the actual act of throwing your spren.  Or telling your spren "materialize into a block with spikes about 1' above that guy's head."

[loganmathewjohnson]

I'm always bad at finding them, but I'm certain we have WoB somewhere that says a Spren can only grow to about the size of a man- Which explains why Shardblades are only about 6 feet long. So this would limit the whole "Scythe on an army" idea. Love the MysSyl, love the handle, love the topic title. 

 

*Fist Bump*

[Kasimir]

Upvote for the title as well

I think the theory that you have to stay in contact with your Sprenblade for them to transform seems to be pretty promising. There are two things:

1. As you've noted, Adolin can throw his Shardblade at a target and will it to stay put. The Blade doesn't have to stay in contact with its wielder, and this is obviously a limited case of what Sprenblades can do, but let's clarify what this implies in any case. Shardblades/Sprenblades don't have to stay in contact with their wielder in order to stay manifested. (Further evidence: the chasmfiend fight where Shallan lends Pattern to Kaladin. While Kaladin loses hold of Pattern at certain points, Pattern stays manifested and doesn't vanish.) The wielder can insist they stay manifested. What this does not work as evidence for: the wielder can transform the Blade from a distance, or direct it to manifest elsewhere. In fact, of note (I think) is the bit where, as previously mentioned by kaellok in this thread, Syl insisted Kaladin had to stretch out his hand. Add to that the fact that all seen Shardbearers as far as I recall always summon their Shardblades to their hand, and I think it seems pretty good reason to think willing your Shardblade to be summoned some distance away from you can't be done.

2. When Syl responds to his thoughts and transforms, it seems to be purely a shape shift in anticipation of what Kaladin needs/is presumably thinking of. In the same way, when Shallan gouges out steps in the chasm walls for them to make a shelter, Pattern obligingly shrinks to the size she needs. It's true that it might be that Pattern didn't change for Kaladin because Shallan hadn't consciously remembered she could do that, but I think it safe to suggest that in all cases so far where Sprenblades shift shape, they've done so when in physical contact with the wielder. This is what kaellok suggests, and I think it likely the case.

Of course, these still leave two questions: why can't Kaladin just imagine Syl piercing Szeth? I'm not much of a Cosmere theorist, but I'll indicate I like Tempus' response. With regard to the other question: I suspect it might be possible for Kaladin, but he'd have to Lash Syl. Skills in transforming a Sprenblade so far don't seem to include anything remotely telekinetic. Whether he could Lash his own Sprenblade is another question--I'm not sure if there'd be resistance there.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Kasimir

[Patrick Star]

Kaladin should have Syl turn into a Nokia 3310.  He'd be unstoppable!

[loganmathewjohnson]

As far as the Nokia would be concerned, would that still have the ability to cut through stones like water??

 

But on a more serious note, I don't think that Kaladin would be able to lash Syl. She's too heavily invested- the same reason you can't lash someone in Shardplate. 

[Observer]

Something like a Shardblade isn't going to be able to change forms or even move without being held by the KR that formed them. It's why the KR didn't just stand still and let a thousand Shardblades dice the voidbringers to pieces from forty paces. I'm not even sure if the blade can stay intact at great distances from the KR in question, spren seem to be very vulnerable and dependent on their owner when in weapon form. Brandon mentioned that Syl has a height limit, so making an enormous whip would also be out of the question, and I'm positive there's a good reason Shardarrows aren't a thing. Still, this is only my 2% of an American dollar, so feel free to contradict me.

[Dahak]

Upvotes for that title alone.

As for the guided bit, I think Sprenblades require constant physical contact to move and change. And for why nobody uses projectile weapons, I'm not quite sure.

 

Because they are the Knights Radient. Not the Samurai Radient or the Deghan Radient.

[Patrick Star]

Because they are the Knights Radient. Not the Samurai Radient or the Deghan Radient.

 

Early Samurai emphasized horseback archery over sword-fighting, so probably not the best comparison.

[kaellok]

Early Samurai emphasized horseback archery over sword-fighting, so probably not the best comparison.

I think that actually proves his point?  ie, no one uses archery because it's not important to them; early Samurai emphasized horseback archery; hence, they aren't based off of early Samurai traditions.

[Seloun]

Syl's Shardblade/spear/whatever form is presumably still affected by physics, and as hypothesized above, Syl probably can't manifest except through contact with Kaladin. A shardspear generally isn't going to have control surfaces or a reaction thruster, so it can't just change direction mid-flight for no reaason. Kaladin has to touch to lash objects (even if he could lash Sylspear) so that doesn't resolve the issue of mid-flight guidance (lashing in of itself should also be a really bad way to make sudden course corrections). I don't believe we've seen a Shardblade change shape while not held by the bondmate (otherwise we could have ailerons on the spear). Regardless though, if the Shardspear is affected by physics, it can't just ignore inertia and turn on a dime without something providing the exchange of momentum.

 

It's worth noting that so far the most dangerous trick used by Windrunners is probably the 'multiple lashing a heavy object' trick. Szeth kills two Shardbearers basically in a single shot that way, while Kaladin is able to propel himself with enough strength to crack Shardplate.

[Dahak]

Early Samurai emphasized horseback archery over sword-fighting, so probably not the best comparison.

That's exactly why it's a good comparison.

 

Samurai Radient would have bows.

 

Knights on the other hand didn't in general use them. Bows are more a Yeoman sort of thing. And the powered bow Sadeas was using in the first book never gets mentioned in the second.

[Stormfather-in-Law]

OK. I'm almost convinced. It does make sense based on what we've seen that bonded spren can't change shape without touch. I used to think a shardbearer had to hold out their hand just to avoid cutting their own head off, but I see the point. And the explanation as to why a Blade can't just appear already piercing someone also jives.

 

I also completely agree that spren or shardblades likely can't be lashed. I actually was under the impression that they aren't bound by the laws of physics at all - certainly not in spren form. For the blade, as far as I can tell, it also doesn't seem to follow our laws of physics, except that the dead ones at least have weight. Otherwise, they only stop when they hit another invested object, and I thought any resistance felt when a shardblade passes through something is due to cutting that object's tie to the spiritual realm.

 

 

But that's not exactly where I was going. Using the MisSyl example, I wasn't thinking of Kaladin guiding her towards the target by lashings, nor by fins and a guidance system - much too complicated. I was thinking of Syl being, well, Syl, not just an inanimate object given a velocity. In spren form at least, she can go where she wills, and by the end of WoR she is linked enough to Kaladin to anticipate his thoughts and intent. So if his intent is to throw her in blade form around, for instance, a corner, could he/she?

 

Seems to me that if the answer to that is yes, then she could be quite deadly even at a distance, even towards a moving object.

[Seloun]

We never see Shardblades 'wield themselves.' Any motion we see from them in the physical world (with the possible exception of the morphing, though this can be explained as a unsummon-resummon behavior) is due to other physical agencies; when someone lets go of a Shardblade, it falls due to gravity. They are affected by friction (otherwise the last clap would not work) and seems to behave pretty much like any other physical object, except being very sharp and 'fuzzing' when cutting living matter.

 

My point is that there's no reason that we've seen to expect that Syl can somehow make her physical form move without following physical laws. If she had control surfaces she might be able to maneuver despite this restriction. But I don't think there's any evidence to think that she can just move her physical form arbitrarily. Just because she can do it as a spren doesn't indicate that she can do it while assuming a form in the physical realm. So I don't think she could be thrown around a corner unless there was a physical reason that would work, i.e. Shardboomerang or some other throwable airfoil, and she couldn't 'adjust' after being thrown.

 

Note that if she could do this, this would make the Radiant basically moot, since Syl could simply be a dancing Shardblade that doesn't need a wielder at all (no need to consider anything beyond a self-wielded Shardblade, really). Consider the chasm scene - if Pattern could simply fly around as a Shardblade, the scene is trivialized.

 

Basically, my interpretation is that the KR essentially functions as a 'gate' for the spren to enter the physical realm in physical form, but once they've crossed over, they're bound by physical rules (Pattern cannot 'slide' underneath surfaces, Syl can't ignore gravity).

[MistLord]

I've considered the same thoughts - and decided that there couldn't be any moving parts, and therefore no mechanism to do anything but be a medieval weapon (no guns, no bombs). However I am interested in if a Knight is able to form any vague, abstract shapes using their spren, which would give undeniable tactical advantage (instantaneous cover as he/she ducks behind a Shardwall). 

 

Of course, the ideas on shape might not (and probably don't) come from the Knight, but the Spren, meaning any shape they take on is a cognitive representation. Syl becomes a sword because it's what she knows is a sword - she cannot become a random sphere or wall because it doesn't have purpose. This might also explain the ornamentation of Shardblades - something reflecting the cognitive realm (even if I always thought it was the Spren personalising it as such).

 

(I'm a little tired, so if anything doesn't make sense -which I'm sure is the case- I'll fix it later)

[hoser]

This makes sense to me.

We never see Shardblades 'wield themselves.' Any motion we see from them in the physical world (with the possible exception of the morphing, though this can be explained as a unsummon-resummon behavior) is due to other physical agencies; when someone lets go of a Shardblade, it falls due to gravity. They are affected by friction (otherwise the last clap would not work) and seems to behave pretty much like any other physical object, except being very sharp and 'fuzzing' when cutting living matter.

 

My point is that there's no reason that we've seen to expect that Syl can somehow make her physical form move without following physical laws. If she had control surfaces she might be able to maneuver despite this restriction. But I don't think there's any evidence to think that she can just move her physical form arbitrarily. Just because she can do it as a spren doesn't indicate that she can do it while assuming a form in the physical realm. So I don't think she could be thrown around a corner unless there was a physical reason that would work, i.e. Shardboomerang or some other throwable airfoil, and she couldn't 'adjust' after being thrown.

 

Note that if she could do this, this would make the Radiant basically moot, since Syl could simply be a dancing Shardblade that doesn't need a wielder at all (no need to consider anything beyond a self-wielded Shardblade, really). Consider the chasm scene - if Pattern could simply fly around as a Shardblade, the scene is trivialized.

 

Basically, my interpretation is that the KR essentially functions as a 'gate' for the spren to enter the physical realm in physical form, but once they've crossed over, they're bound by physical rules (Pattern cannot 'slide' underneath surfaces, Syl can't ignore gravity).

Beyond that, Kaladin comments that Syl only moves in ways that match her form.  When she flies she is a ribbon of light or blowing leaves.  In sword form, maybe she can only move as a sword would.  Adolin can then only command his Shardblade to move as a sword would move if thrown. 

[wolveryne]

Beyond that, Kaladin comments that Syl only moves in ways that match her form. When she flies she is a ribbon of light or blowing leaves. In sword form, maybe she can only move as a sword would. Adolin can then only command his Shardblade to move as a sword would move if thrown.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Syl takes a human form and floats around Kaladin with no regard to gravity or physics, all the time.

I agree that she needs physical contact to shape shift though.

Edited May 5, 2014 by wolveryne

[Seloun]

Syl takes a human form and floats around Kaladin with no regard to gravity or physics, all the time.

I agree that she needs physical contact to shape shift though.

 

While true, Kaladin makes the following observation near the end of WoR:

 

 

She stood up from his shoulder , then walked as if down a flight of steps toward the sword. She rarely flew when she had a human form. She flew as a ribbon of light, or as a group of leaves, or as a small cloud. He’d never noticed before how odd, yet normal, it was that she stuck to the nature of the form she used.

 

[Tempus]

I'm not convinced that moving parts would not be possible. Cognitive transformation is more concerned about the whole of an object. Projectile launching weapons would be impossible (or at least useless) since we view them in different cognitive parts: Bow and Arrow, Gun and Bullet... the spren could only transform into one of these, and that is rather useless. Bomb should work, but I don't know how the spren would feel about blowing themselves up.

 

I'll support intrinsic movement only though - if you had Syl transform into a turtle, she could move. If you had her transform into a rock, she couldn't. Well, unless she rolled.

[ccstat]

First, I have the say I had the same thought as the OP when reading that scene. I considered the options in order of descending coolness and increasing plausibility: missile, grenade, firearm, crossbow, ...

 

And the explanation as to why a Blade can't just appear already piercing someone also jives.

But that is exactly how Shallan killed Tyn. At least, I read that scene as Pattern appearing halfway through Tyn's chest.

(Which, incidentally, contributes to my confusion about the Adolin/Sadeas scuffle at the end of the book. Brandon's explanation is that neither of them summoned their blades because shardblades aren't useful in a close-quarters fight. Well, if your hand is pointed the right direction, the appearing blade can kill your opponent immediately.)

 

We never see Shardblades 'wield themselves.

Yes, but for the most part we've only seen dead blades. There is reason to suspect the live blades have additional abilities. At the same time, though, I think hoser is correct:

Kaladin comments that Syl only moves in ways that match her form.  When she flies she is a ribbon of light or blowing leaves.  In sword form, maybe she can only move as a sword would.  Adolin can then only command his Shardblade to move as a sword would move if thrown. 

 

 

And, Tempus, I'd never considered a weaponized turtle before. That would be an interesting fight.