The Oathpact and how Odium bound himself

[Jace21]

Good Afternoon Fellow Sharders!

So it's been a long while since I posted any kind of theory, all my previous ones were debunked by Oathbringer and I have become a little cynical about trying to out-guess Brandon. That said, I have been thinking about this one for a while. How exactly is Odium bound to the Greater Roshar system?

We know he is invested quite heavily there, but why would he do that? After all we have this WoB (all WoBs will be spoilered for length):

Spoiler

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Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

source

Well he seems to have spectacularly failed on that count, so what happened?

I propose the answer is quite simple: He made some promises he shouldn't have. 

Part #1 - Shardly Promises

So the first part of this is something we have little evidence for, but I am convinced is the case.

That is: Shards must keep their promises.

Honor himself in WoK gives us the first clue in the below:

Spoiler

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“You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are."

So all Shards (or the 3 Rosharan ones at the least), are bound by certain rules. One of these is the rule regarding champions that we saw in Oathbringer and has been hinted at elsewhere in the Cosmere.

I propose that another one of these rules is that they cannot break their word.

In Oathbringer, Odium told us this after being queried by Taravangian:

Spoiler

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"Should we write ... a contract?"

"Our word is the contract. I am not some spren of Honor, who seeks to obey only the strictest letter of a promise. If you have an agreement with me, I will keep it in promise, not merely in word."

Now I know what you are going to say, "but he could be lying" and yes, he could. But I don't think he is. Smart Taravangian has shown a remarkable understanding of the situation on Roshar and left very specific details on how his slow self could get the deal. If Odiums word wasn't enough I imagine he would have know. The Stormfather also claims that "Spren and Gods cannot break their oaths".

Add to that the fact that Odium must abide by the rules of the challenge of champions and we have NEVER seen a shard break a promise, not even Odium or Ruin, and I think we have reasonable cause to believe that they can't. Or the 3 Rosharan Shard can't at the very least.

Now I am sure their interpretation of the promise makes a difference in what they can do to get around it, nevertheless, I think they have to abide by the interpretation they make.

Part #2 - The Timeline

Just to make sure we are all on the same page the following is a list of the relavent beings/species that came to Roshar in chronological order:

1. Parshendi/Listeners/Singers - Pick your name, these guys are native, as far as we know.
2. Honor and Cultivation - Arrive together and, with the spren, become the Singer gods.
3. Humans (at least 1st Wave) - They fled Ashyn, and were given Shinovar as their new home.
4. Odium - Arrived around the same time as the humans, close enough that the Singers believe the humans brought him, but that may not be the case.

Now Odium may have arrived just before or with the humans. I think it was likely a little after but it doesn't really change anything either way.

So we know from OB that some time after the humans arrive, they began to expand. At some point they also began to worship Honor and Cultivation, such that the Singers felt betrayed. That led to the first desolation which per OB, went something like this:

1. Singers (at least some of them) want power to regain their lands and kill the humans.
2. They make a deal with Odium and become the Fused. They can Surgebind and can't be permanently killed.
3. They begin killing many humans, presumably maing headway in their war.
4. 10 people made a deal with Honor, the Oathpact. They would become the Heralds and seal the Fused on Braize so long as they stayed there.

However, we know the Heralds broke and let the Fused past. Once they were defeated again on Roshar, the Heralds went back to Braize and sealed them again, until the next time they broke. And so begins the cycle of Desolation.

Part #3 - Conclusion

Now the key part of all that is the deal he made with the Fused. The Singers seemed to have knowledge of and contact with Honor and Cultivation so it may not have been an accident, but one way or another Odium promised them he would help them regain their land.

He was probably wary of investing but anticipated a short campaign that would get the Singers their land and, once their believers were gone and anything they had invested in destroyed, he could Splinter Honor and Cultivation and move on.

The Oathpact prevented this by stopping him fulfilling his promise the Fused. He can't break it so he has to stick around and keep his word. Until the Fused are victorious, he can't Divest from the Rosharan System.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to see what people think. There are some potential issues with it but I think it fits quite well with what we know as well as explaining how the Honor/Cultivation/the Oathpact, have bound him without him being one of the parties involved (as per WoB)

All comments and criticism welcome

Thanks,

Jace

[Bigmikey357]

I think you may need to modify the statement that Shards cannot break promises. We have seen a Shard break a promise already, Preservation/Leras. I think it's more that Shards cannot break promises without severe consequences to their power or consciousness. A broken promise for a Shard results in a wound that cannot heal. Otherwise, I can find no flaws in your theory. Upvote and RAFO!

[+ILuvHats]

This theory seems very plausible, and I like it’s simplicity.  IMO, the simplest theories are most often correct.  But, your timelines a bit off.

22 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

They make a deal with Odium and become the Fused. They can Surgebind and can't be permanently killed.

I think it was confirmed in OB that the Fused did not originally have access to the surges until after the Oathpact.  I don’t have my copy with me, but I’m pretty sure the Stormfather mentioned this to Dalinar during the visions.  But I’m just nitpicking.  Great theory!  

@Bigmikey357  I’m reasonably certain Preservation exploited a loophole in his deal with Ruin, so he never technically broke his word.

[Calderis]

I agree with the premise but not the method. Whatever bound Odium originally was Honor and Cultivation's doing, per the Stormfather. 

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THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.

But promises, yes. I fully agree that promises are Binding, and that Taravangian is stupid for not having made the terms clear... I'll get to that in a moment. 

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think you may need to modify the statement that Shards cannot break promises. We have seen a Shard break a promise already, Preservation/Leras.

Leras didn't break his promise though he tells us that himself.

Secret History spoilers 

Spoiler

“Oh, Senna . . .” Preservation whispered. “I’m losing this place. Losing them all . . .”

  “We are going to stop it,” Kelsier said, pulling back.

  “It can’t be stopped. The deal . . .”

  “Deals can be broken.”

  “Not these kinds of deals, Kelsier. I was able to trick Ruin before, lock him away, by fooling him with our agreement. But that wasn’t a breach of contract, more leaving a hole in the agreement to be exploited. This time there are no holes.”

I fully believe that what a Shard agrees to, they are bound to. The issue is that they are bound precisely to what they agree to. 

Ruin thought he had agreed to something that Leras did not mean. I believe the exact same applies to the "pact" that the Vessels all swore. For example. 

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Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

source

 

[Jace21]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We have seen a Shard break a promise already, Preservation/Leras.

Ati thought Leras broke his promise but I dont think he did. As Calderis said, in MB:SH he tells Kelsier that he deliberately left a loophole in the agreement. If anything the fact that he needed to create the loophole supports the fact that he couldnt just break his promise.

2 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

I think it was confirmed in OB that the Fused did not originally have access to the surges until after the Oathpact.

He says that "Even before the Fused learned to command the surges, men could not fight them." A little bit of wiggle room there. I thonk there had to have been something special about the fused or they wouldnt have been any more dangerous tham the Singer they replaced. But even if you're right it doesnt make muche difference, it was their inability to die that forced the Oathpact.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I agree with the premise but not the method. Whatever bound Odium originally was Honor and Cultivation's doing, per the Stormfather. 

@Calderis, I should have known it would be you. The one quote I found that pokes a hole.

There a lot of options that still let the theory work, such as:

1. It is due to Honor and Cultivation that Odium is bound by his promise.

2. The Stormfather is referring the effect of the Oathpact itself.

3. Stormfather believes 1 is true, being ignorant of the greater Cosmere.

4. Stormfather is just wrong.

The only one I think has a reasonable chance of being right is 3. And I am still not sold.

So while I like the elegance and simplicity of the theory, I don't have a good answer to that one, even though I still feel like I'm onto something.

[+ILuvHats]

11 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

He says that "Even before the Fused learned to command the surges, men could not fight them." A little bit of wiggle room there. I thonk there had to have been something special about the fused or they wouldnt have been any more dangerous tham the Singer they replaced. But even if you're right it doesnt make muche difference, it was their inability to die that forced the Oathpact.

Hmmm.  I must have misremembered the quote.  For some reason I thought it was more explicit.  And you're right, it doesn't make much of a difference to the theory, it was just a tidbit I wasn't 100% sure was true.  Gotta get that chronology straight, right?  

[insert_anagram_here]

On 10/12/2018 at 5:09 AM, Jace21 said:

1. It is due to Honor and Cultivation that Odium is bound by his promise.

2. The Stormfather is referring the effect of the Oathpact itself.

3. Stormfather believes 1 is true, being ignorant of the greater Cosmere.

4. Stormfather is just wrong.

Sorry for bumping an old thread. But what if it's the Oathpact itself that binds Odium to Roshar. Maybe he was involved in the oath?

[RShara]

According to the Stormfather and to Brandon, the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds, and binds the Fused to Braize. Whatever holds Odium to the Roshar system is greater than the Oathpact and involves Honor and Cultivation.

[insert_anagram_here]

Let me rephrase what I'm trying to say here.

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Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

source

Try and think along the lines that the Oathpact could bind Odium to the Greater Rosharan System, and because of his involvement in this he became invested. (maybe it was done to fight off some other kind of force initially not knowing that Odium was an enemy)

Then (maybe after realising his intentions were to destroy them) Honor and Cultivaiton sealed him on Braize. But in order to seal his inversted powes, meaning the Fused, the Heralds needed to give leave Roshar permanently and seal both the Fused and themselves in Damnation.

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THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION.

1

Also, have in mind that the Stormfather doesn't necesarily reveal the whole truth mostly because he doesn't even remember himself.

So, do we have definitive proof that the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds?

[RShara]

9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Let me rephrase what I'm trying to say here.

Try and think along the lines that the Oathpact could bind Odium to the Greater Rosharan System, and because of his involvement in this he became invested. (maybe it was done to fight off some other kind of force initially not knowing that Odium was an enemy)

Then (maybe after realising his intentions were to destroy them) Honor and Cultivaiton sealed him on Braize. But in order to seal his inversted powes, meaning the Fused, the Heralds needed to give leave Roshar permanently and seal both the Fused and themselves in Damnation.

Also, have in mind that the Stormfather doesn't necesarily reveal the whole truth mostly because he doesn't even remember himself.

So, do we have definitive proof that the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds?

Yep.

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luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

source

 

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THEY GAVE THEMSELVES UP. AS ODIUM IS SEALED BY THE POWERS OF HONOR AND CULTIVATION, YOUR HERALDS SEALED THE SPREN OF THE DEAD INTO THE PLACE YOU CALL DAMNATION. THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH. THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD END THE WAR FOREVER. BUT THEY WERE WRONG. HONOR WAS WRONG.

That's pretty definitive there, if you ask me. Not a lot of wiggle room in what he said.

[Ashaman_Wade]

I'd like to add a few things to the timeline to see if you guys could figure out who played what roles and when with what we know more of. 

4. Oathpact formed...

5. Spren of Honor and Cultivation mimicked Honorblades and the Nahel Bond is introduced 

6. Urithiru, silver kingdoms, Way of Kings, with long cycles between desolations and the orders of KR established. 

7. Aheretiam. This takes place when humanity is almost wiped out from successive desolations, over shorter gaps in time, and 9 Heralds do not return to complete the Oathpact as they had all the tines before. They just found a loophole so the Oathoact is completely intact since one herald went back and then after breaking the voidbringers came back as they have before. 

8. False desolation/Recreance. After listening to Dalinars vision of Feverstone Keep, I had this thought. Maybe the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram alone wasn't enough to deprive the voidbringers of voidlight, that one action doesnt really sync up with the extreme loss of connection and identity caused throughout the Listener population. I feel like the willful giving up of KR Nahel Bonds allowed the Bondsmith to do something MORE and that was what took away their forms of power and Voidlight. It's just too much coincidence in the story that both of those things happened and weren't connected. More so than just their conscious caused them to disband and forsake all oaths. 

9. Honors death. The Stormfather said that he was raving and in his death throes when the KR found out about the original Voidbringers so he finally died sometime after due to... I have no idea. Odium killed him but Idk of any WoB or text that even hinted at how that may have played out. 

10. Final Desolation. We are in the end game now.

Overall, I like what is being put down and just wanted to see if this added any value to your theory. I like complete timelines. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Ashaman_Wade
Words. 10 events

[+Child of Hodor]

I think Odium agreed to a proxy war because he didn't like his chances in a direct two on one battle. Even if he won he could be significantly weakened reducing his ability to kill the rest of the Shards remaining. 

Spoiler

He killed the two shards on Sel, in part by getting them to turn on each other and then swooping in. Then he killed Ambition, but it was a tough fight and he took some damage.  When he came to Roshar he was wary of doing direct Shard battle again. 

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#17

Questioner

Odium has, as I understand it, something like the meaning of God's divine wrath. How is wrath on its own able to cause such terrible destruction? I  mean, he primarily attacked di-Shardic worlds like Sel and Roshar, so could he just have sowed discord between Shards there to an extent of them actually fighting against each other and then just *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good theory, that he got them to fight against each other. I won't tell you whether it happened or not, but it is a very valid theory. It's fully within his capacity; that's the sort of thing that he does.

 

 

 

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#2 

Seonid

If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

She did.

The Vessels of Honor and Cultivation were lovers and their Shard intents don't clash like other Shards do. It would be hard for Odium to get them to turn on each other. This would give Odium motivation to agree to a proxy battle. 

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"To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal." Stormfather on Odium OB Ch. 16

One thing I don't understand is if it is some proxy contest to avoid direct shard on shard battle, how did Odium kill Tanavast and splinter Honor? The contest seems to be ongoing, maybe Odium "won" enough to be able to kill Tanavast.

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"Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing." - Tanavast WoK Ch. 75

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by Child of Hodor