Confused Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 First, props to Moogle for causing me to re-read the back covers. And here is what I found in WoR: “It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves; they can brace a broken soul, but they can also widen its fissures.” [A quick observation: I thought that surges were the “powers of creation” and surgebindings were the ability to manipulate the surges.] I think what happened to Bent Nale is that his “fissures” widened, further breaking his soul rather than bracing it. Breaking the Oathpact might have been the event that first broke his soul (especially given his temperament). Remaining on Roshar might have broken him further. It continued his exposure to Stormlight, which Kaladin says “were the Surges reduced to some primal form.” (WoR, Hardback, p. 469.) This may be what Syl meant when she told Kaladin that too much Stormlight is bad for the health. An added possibility is that wider soul fissures invite Odium in. Many speculate that Odium has corrupted Bent Nale and the other Heralds. This may be the mechanism for such corruption - why Bent Nale’s Prologue companion notes that Ash is “getting worse” and he feels like he too is “getting worse” – too much exposure to Stormlight/the surges. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Why do you call him "Bent" Nale? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Who is Bent Nale? I'm so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think he's talking about Nalan, whose real name is Nale. I don't know where he is getting the Bent part from, though.I wouldn't read too much into the use of the word "Surgebindings" instead of "Surges", by the way. I do, however, think that you are on to something by pointing out that widening the "fissures" too much could be dangerous. I don't however, necessarily think it might make it easier for Odium to influence you, though. This was a major theme of Mistborn, and while it wouldn't be unthinkable for Brandon to reuse the theme, I think he is going more for the theme of a broken spirit or soul. What does it mean to be broken? How does that affect you? Is it possible to heal a broken soul? If anything, a broken soul would make you unstable. Maybe more open to outside influences, but not direct control. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veil she/her Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Nale is, I believe, the name Nin/Nalan is known by in Shinovar. I presume "Bent Nale" is a pun off "bent nail." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Who is Bent Nale? I'm so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Nale is, I believe, the name Nin/Nalan is known by in Shinovar. I presume "Bent Nale" is a pun off "bent nail." If that is correct, then it is actually quite the clever pun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confused Posted April 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Sorry for the confusion about Nale (I AM Confused). Yes, it's a bad and stupid pun, but somehow appropriate (at least to me) - he's "bent" (corrupted) and his name is a homonym for "nail." RShara, perhaps you can confirm, but I thought there is WoB saying that "Nale" is the Herald's actual name, not Nalan (Alethkar) or Nin (Shinovar). Aether said: "Maybe more open to outside influences, but not direct control." I'm suggesting, not positing, that wider cracks MAY let Odium affect a broken soul, whether by direct control or influence. It's a common trope, not just used in Mistborn, but that doesn't make it the less effective a plot device. So, now that we've established I'm a bad punster, what about the substance of my OP: Do you think too much Stormlight can further break down an already broken soul? Do you think that's what's happened with Nale and the other heralds? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 WoB for all the heralds' true names: Q: Can you confirm the real names of the Heralds for me? A: Jezrien, Nale, Chanarach (nickname: Chana), Vedel, Paliah (nickname: Pali), Shalash (nickname: Ash), Battar, Kalak, Talenel (nickname: Taln), Ishar. (source) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyht Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Aether said: "Maybe more open to outside influences, but not direct control." I'm suggesting, not positing, that wider cracks MAY let Odium affect a broken soul, whether by direct control or influence. It's a common trope, not just used in Mistborn, but that doesn't make it the less effective a plot device. So, now that we've established I'm a bad punster, what about the substance of my OP: Do you think too much Stormlight can further break down an already broken soul? Do you think that's what's happened with Nale and the other heralds? I think it is a very interesting idea. I have been wondering how Odium affects people. However, I don't think that is what is happening. Every other example I can think of where people draw too much magic, they do not become more susceptible to influence or control. Their body changes, they become addicted, or even die. But, maybe Odium can affect those whose minds (not just their souls) are cracked. There is some evidence that Vin's mother was affected by Ruin, simply because she was crazy. So perhaps if the Heralds have been through event terrible enough that their minds cracked, Odium could exert some control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Stormlight/Surgebinding seems to be addictive, so yes, too much Investiture can change you in odd ways. The most obvious of these are the people who flare their metals too much for too long in Mistborn, but we've seen instances in SA, too. The soulcasters (people) who use fabrials to Soulcast are clearly being changed by using the fabrials. All of the main surgebinders so far have remarked on how good it felt to hold in Stormlight, and how they tend to do so unwittingly. I don't think this will necessarily open them up more to Odium's influence, though. It might change them Physically, Cognitively and Spiritually, but I think there needs to be an extra something to open them up to a Shard's direct influence. If their actions lead them to be mentally unbalanced, or to be more hateful than honorable, then yes, I think they could then start to be influenced by Odium, but it wouldn't be directly related their ability to Surgebind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 I forget what race it was (irali?), but isn't there a race with crystaline finger nails, shadows that point in the wrong direction, and something is up with their eyes? Don't the people that use soulcasters over time start to in some cases get a stoney appearance? Maybe that race is the result of an earlier group of radiants, or normal people that soulcast so much their bodies changed and the change bred true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numb Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 The race are the Amian. Their eyes are crystaline and their finger nails blue. They(at least one kind) can alter their appearance. I also saw the connection when I reread but wasn't sure what it mean. The listeners are also more crystaline than humans. It's possible that being closer to the cognitive realm on Roshar alters your body to be more crystaline which might explain why the Soulcast savants change that way. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 The race are the Amian. Their eyes are crystaline and their finger nails blue. They(at least one kind) can alter their appearance. I also saw the connection when I reread but wasn't sure what it mean. The listeners are also more crystaline than humans. It's possible that being closer to the cognitive realm on Roshar alters your body to be more crystaline which might explain why the Soulcast savants change that way. That's... a really cool observation, and likely to be true, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 That's interesting. I wonder if it's related to why gemstones can hold Stormlight (Investiture)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Also I wonder if that means Lift will begin to change physically. Wyndle did say she is partially in the cognitive realm, allowing her to metabolize stormlight, as well as interact with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Sorry for the confusion about Nale (I AM Confused). Yes, it's a bad and stupid punIncorrect. It is an awesome pun. 10/10. Would pun again. Also: Herdazians have stoney fingernails or something. Aimian heritage? Edited April 30, 2014 by Pechvarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Also I wonder if that means Lift will begin to change physically. Wyndle did say she is partially in the cognitive realm, allowing her to metabolize stormlight, as well as interact with him. I don't think it would happen in the same way for Knights Radiant (though maybe in Lift's quite unique case). If Lightwieavers and Elscallers turned crystallized from Soulcasting, you can bet the Vorin Church would have used it to discredit them post-Recreance. The KR are described as arrogant and maleficent, but I don't remember them being described as having a monstrous appearance as well. I suppose "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", but I think the Nahel Bond would protect them from these effects. The effects we see upon modern Soulcasters could also be an effect from an inherent misuse of the fabrials. Little is known about the ancient Soulcaster-fabrials, and it is possible that the Ardents are just using them in an incorrect way, which results in the horrifying effects that were revealed in the Words of Radience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Very true, but I do lean towards Lift's case being unique. After all, the implication is that metabolizing stormlight and being closer to the cognitive realm is a boon she received from the Nightwatcher. So perhaps the potential transformation would be the curse? (Just spitballing at this point) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Honestly, I didn't see the effects as incredibly horrifying. Kind of cool, honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Don't the effects eventually kill the person using the soulcaster due to overuse? That would be pretty horrifying. Edited April 30, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether he/him Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 Don't the effects eventually kill the person using the soulcaster due to overuse? That would be pretty horrifying. Was this ever stated in the book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 30, 2014 Report Share Posted April 30, 2014 I have to look to find the place, but I could have sworn there was a scene where you see an ardent with granite like skin and crystal eyes, that they state that she must retire lest she die from further soulcasting. I am ad libbing but I think that is how that scene went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wherethewindgoes Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 This is a slight tangent, but I thought of this while reading through the thread and wanted to put it out there: The ardents are secretive about Soulcasting and don't let anyone see what they're doing. Have we ever actually seen someone use a fabrial to Soulcast? Perhaps something happens to ardents during Soulcasting that they don't want others to see, something that has to do with them crystallizing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) i forget the page number but navani allows dalinar to watch the ardents soulcast a wall into being for fortifications. he comments how it is odd that air seems to be pulled TOWARDS it instead of displaced AWAY. that implication is for me based on jasnah's and shallan's that the very air is transformed into stone, so the air is drawn in to have enough mass to make the wall edit:word of radiance page 419 for reference edit2: which is also where i thought it said they die if they soulcast too much. upon checking, it did not state that. instead it stated that due to being overworked, they need to train new people as well as take shifts. but death as result of too much soulcasting is not stated. for some reason i still think i saw that somewhere but till i locate it, it seems soulcast fatality is a mistake Edited May 1, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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