The Spiritual Realm 2.0

[Steeldancer]

If you haven't read my first essay on the Spiritual Realm, go here. I was going to discuss some of the recent things in individual threads, but decided a new compilation of more recent WoBs and some analysis of what it means for our understanding of the Spiritual Realm. 
In the previous thread, you'll remember I hypothesized that the Shades eyes, when they turn red, are the same thing as with the evil Kandra and the Voidbringers. Sure enough, I was right. 

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Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

On Threnody, the Shades, their eyes turn red when they get really mad. Is that the same thing as with the Voidbringers and all the other ones?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have a subtheme in the Cosmere of the redness and it's supposed to be intentional.

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

So it is the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's the same theme. But I do not mean to imply that it's the same Shard.

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

But it's the same effect?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. I'm doing it intentionally. Red eyes specifically are meant to mean something but I use it a few other ways [the same way?].

source

So I was right! This brings up several new things to wonder about. The obvious one is that there is something controlling the shades when they get angry. The obvious answer would be the Evil, but we know so little about the Evil that it is hard to say whether that is necessarily true. 
The second one, and the much more interesting one, is then what is going on when their eyes turn green? If the red eyes are specifically people getting hacked, then perhaps green eyes indicates some sort of partial hacking, but not completely? And who knows what could be going on with that. Either way, the eyes of the shades are weird, and very interesting. I look forward to seeing more about them. 
Next Brandon confirmed one of the key parts of my theories, but then proceeded to flip the tables on me. 

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Steeldancer

Would it be correct to say that the highstorms on Roshar have left the realms closer together than on other worlds? 

Brandon Sanderson

You could say [that] is true. I'd be comfortable with that idea. Though there are worlds where this goes even further than on Roshar.

source

So, I think my theorizing is correct on spren being an outgrowth of that, however it doesn't seem like it is a key tenet for Roshar's environment based on his response. Now, then he says there are worlds where this goes further than Roshar, which frankly shocked me a bit, but now it seems obvious that he is referring to Sel. Now here's where things get interesting- if the Realms on Sel are closer together due to 2 shards being stuffed in the cognitive realm, how does that make the Selish environment comparable to Roshar's? For one, Roshar, due to the highstorms, have a lot more available investiture than on Sel. I mean the Dor is omnipresent, but is in general harder to access than stormlight is. Meanwhile, Sel's land is coming alive, which makes a lot of sense in the context that the realms are growing closer together due to the Dor. And then the big one- Seons and Skaze. It would be smart to ask if any two Seons have the same Aon inside of them. If they don't, then that means each Seon could basically the cognitive aspect of that Aon. Furthermore, is it only Fjordell and Elantris that have beings associated with their symbols? Are there MaiPon seons of a sort? Jindo? And how much does thought affect things on Sel, and why aren't there spren everywhere? My interest in seeing more of Sel has just exploded, and I hope we eventually get to see the Cognitive Realm on Sel. 
Now before I get to the last and most exciting subject for me personally, I need to mention a trait that has been coming up on Discord a lot: Connection. Is connection investiture, or is it instead a property of investiture? Does your web become bigger each time you make that connection, or is it just your web changing shape to mimic another spirit web, creating a resonance of forms? I'm not entirely sure, but it would probably be a good idea to ask brandon about that at some point. 
Now the last thing I'll discuss for today- Breath. I don't think I discussed Breath enough in my last thread, and recent WoB's have completely reshaped how I view Breath. Breath is so much more powerful a magic system than I think we give it credit for. Here are two WoBs that made me rethink things: 

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

source

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Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

Given a situation where they have perfect knowledge of Hemalurgy--everything is known. Is it possible they could use a Shard-scalpel and spike to carefully...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

To excise without killing somebody? The real damage is to the soul...

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]

I'm imagining taking out toxic *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

You've seen Vasher do something similar, so it's not off books that that's possible.

source

The second one was an idea I had to use hemalurgy to do things like repair spirit webs, cut out toxic pieces of spirit web and such. But apparently based on Brandon's response, when Vasher uses the command to memory wipe the girl in Warbreaker, that must be actually excising a piece of the spirit web!!! And if you can do that... what else can you do with breath? I've begun to think more of breath as creating an actual spirit web based on your command. And that's where things get interesting based on the WoB about Nightblood. Perhaps when the command "Destroy evil" was given, it gave the sword a spirit web that approximated Ruinous intent, giving it some connection there- and thus making it become "corrupted." So, if this is true, someone could awaken a jar lid to "preserve peaches" or something, and it could have that connection to preservation, therefore becoming corrupted. Although, it might also be specifically the amount of breath they used to awaken nightblood combined with the command, so perhaps just sticking 10 breaths into a jar lid and giving it the command "preserve peaches" wouldn't be quite as dramatic as nightblood, but that entirely depends on how this all works. Based on what we know of the spiritual realm, I would say even a couple breaths would do the job, but once again this makes you wonder the extend of what can be done with awakening. If one can truly connect to ruin by giving something the command "destroy," what could one do with the command "keep oaths" or "grow?" If breath truly allows for connection to other shards by creating webs that naturally connect with them, this opens up all sorts of new possibilities. Furthermore one can't help but wonder how else you could make an object that is "corrupted." Soulstamping comes to mind as a way to do so as well, even if that changes the spirit web more than it creates spirit webs. And perhaps there are even ways to do it in other magic systems, and now I will spend time trying to figure out how one could do that. 
On that note, I'll conclude this for now, although I will update it with new subjects as I did my old one if anything new comes to mind regarding realmatics and the Spiritual Realm. 

[Nothing-Ridiculous]

This makes me wonder if azure’s sword is connected to a shard or if she used a more neutral command

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Nothing-Ridiculous said:

This makes me wonder if azure’s sword is connected to a shard or if she used a more neutral command

Based on the fact that it doesn't leak black smoke like nightblood does, I'm going to say it probably doesn't. That, I think was the inherent mistake when they created Nightblood. By connecting it to a Shard like Ruin, you created a monster. 
Just like what would happen if you awakened a jar of peaches to be connected to Preservation. 

[Gasper]

Well. Nightblood does leak black smoke like the Pits of Hathsen.

[TrдVψLшR 0115]

@Steeldancer So do u think that the command “destroy” was too simplistic for a creature with the level of sentience that nighblood has? Similar to how “evil” is too vague because it can be interpreted in different ways? Second, are u saying that the the words in the command forces the awakened object to retrieve its “power” from the most closely related shardic intent?

[Steeldancer]

18 minutes ago, PelekinikeleT said:

@Steeldancer So do u think that the command “destroy” was too simplistic for a creature with the level of sentience that nighblood has? Similar to how “evil” is too vague because it can be interpreted in different ways? Second, are u saying that the the words in the command forces the awakened object to retrieve its “power” from the most closely related shardic intent?

The sentience I think is more because of the amount of investiture put into Nightblood. And it isn't so much that Nightblood draws power from nightblood... but more like Ruin is a very specific thing, and that thing is in the spirit realm as a particular shape. The command "Destroy" created a spirit web that's very similar to the shape of Ruin, which means that they then have connection, which is then why because it connects to a different shard, meaning then the investiture is corrupted. At least that is how I imagine it. 

[TrдVψLшR 0115]

Interesting. I’m pretty sure I read a wob somewhere saying that when creating Nightblood they were trying to imitate a shardblade. But it seems like he almost more closely resembles a Hemalurgic spike. This is from an annotation for warbreaker: “ Nightblood is better at communicating with people who are mentally unhinged. He can influence them more easily. Really, Denth, you should have known to toss Nightblood someplace far deeper than the shallow bay” Isn’t that also a deal w the spikes?

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

The sentience I think is more because of the amount of investiture put into Nightblood.

Random thought:  what if Nightblood is gradually becoming more "intelligent" as he gains investiture?  It probably doesn't work this way, and his personality and self awareness were most likely set upon his creation.  But if artificial intelligence is directly proportional to the levels of investiture... cause obviously there's the WoB that Shards can become self-aware if left alone long enough.  I mean is it just me, or does Nightblood seem slightly more grounded in reality during Oathbringer?  Cuz I know the reality of the moments immediately following his creation are imprinted on his memory, and thats why he thought Shashara was still alive during Warbreaker.  And I kept expecting him to talk about her to Szeth since he mentioned both Vasher and Vivenna, but he didn't, so maybe he's getting better at realizing what is reality and what isn't?  Eh....

Well, my crazy rants over.  Sorry about that.

[Calderis]

I really don't think the command in and of itself was enough. I think there were other circumstances to Nightblood, because Brandon has said that making another like him would be difficult. 

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Megasif [PENDING REVIEW]

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

source

If breath, in and of itself, made that possible I think it would just be a matter of amassing enough. And considering the way Awakening works with commands, and the sheer breadth of what the Shards encompass, I don't think you could envision a command that did fall into the wheelhouse of at least one of the Shards. 

As I've been saying with my theory on what happened with Nightblood though, I don't think that a magic system is needed at all to do it. You just need to create a wholly new Cognitive entity. 

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VindicationKnight

If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

VindicationKnight

How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

source

So I think it was just the circumstances and connection to things surrounding its creation, which it's command was most definitely a part of, more than just the use of Breath. 

[Steeldancer]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I really don't think the command in and of itself was enough. I think there were other circumstances to Nightblood, because Brandon has said that making another like him would be difficult. 

If breath, in and of itself, made that possible I think it would just be a matter of amassing enough. And considering the way Awakening works with commands, and the sheer breadth of what the Shards encompass, I don't think you could envision a command that did fall into the wheelhouse of at least one of the Shards. 

As I've been saying with my theory on what happened with Nightblood though, I don't think that a magic system is needed at all to do it. You just need to create a wholly new Cognitive entity. 

So I think it was just the circumstances and connection to things surrounding its creation, which it's command was most definitely a part of, more than just the use of Breath. 

I'm more blaming the command for the corruption. I don't think the state of nightblood is only like that because of the command, but partially. I didn't feel like sticking my positing about the Divine Breath would be very helpful in here, as I've already talked about that before. But when it comes to being connected to Ruin, I'm blaming that entirely on the command. I fail to see any other circumstances that could have created anything connected to ruin. So then, the natural progression is how much breath do you need to get something to be connected to another shard, therefore the theoretical evil peach jar. 

[+Invocation]

5 hours ago, PelekinikeleT said:

Interesting. I’m pretty sure I read a wob somewhere saying that when creating Nightblood they were trying to imitate a shardblade. But it seems like he almost more closely resembles a Hemalurgic spike. This is from an annotation for warbreaker: “ Nightblood is better at communicating with people who are mentally unhinged. He can influence them more easily. Really, Denth, you should have known to toss Nightblood someplace far deeper than the shallow bay” Isn’t that also a deal w the spikes?

All Investiture can shove itself into someone if they're broken in some way, shape, or form (Snapping on Scadrial, the way all the Radiants are messy inside, the Returned actually have to die, etc). Considering Nightblood is one of the most highly Invested objects in the cosmere, it's not out of the question to say it can do the same and insert itself.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

I'm more blaming the command for the corruption. I don't think the state of nightblood is only like that because of the command, but partially. I didn't feel like sticking my positing about the Divine Breath would be very helpful in here, as I've already talked about that before. But when it comes to being connected to Ruin, I'm blaming that entirely on the command. I fail to see any other circumstances that could have created anything connected to ruin. So then, the natural progression is how much breath do you need to get something to be connected to another shard, therefore the theoretical evil peach jar. 

I see it as the same circumstances as what allowed Autonomy to find and make Patji. A natural accumulation of a shards Investiture beyond the Vessels sphere of influence. 

Where Autonomy's avatars are made intentionally by the Shard, Nightblood tapped into a pocket of Ruin, a natural accumulation, on Nalthis. Making Nightblood a Splinter of Ruin (and Endowment) through no intention of Ruin itself. 

I think it's a set of circumstances that would be hard to replicate. 

[Willshaping Crasher]

58 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I see it as the same circumstances as what allowed Autonomy to find and make Patji. A natural accumulation of a shards Investiture beyond the Vessels sphere of influence. 

Where Autonomy's avatars are made intentionally by the Shard, Nightblood tapped into a pocket of Ruin, a natural accumulation, on Nalthis. Making Nightblood a Splinter of Ruin (and Endowment) through no intention of Ruin itself. 

I think it's a set of circumstances that would be hard to replicate. 

Your comment caused a radical (and probably wrong) theory in my mind.

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RAGS

How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power...

Is there any possibility that Sazed could be dumping excess "Ruin" into Nightblood?  Alternately, Could Nightblood be a result of a inexperienced shardholder (Sazed) looking for an outlet (Nightblood) which just happened to occur?

[Leyrann]

10 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Your comment caused a radical (and probably wrong) theory in my mind.

Is there any possibility that Sazed could be dumping excess "Ruin" into Nightblood?  Alternately, Could Nightblood be a result of a inexperienced shardholder (Sazed) looking for an outlet (Nightblood) which just happened to occur?

Absolutely crazy.

I love it.

[Steeldancer]

32 minutes ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Your comment caused a radical (and probably wrong) theory in my mind.

Is there any possibility that Sazed could be dumping excess "Ruin" into Nightblood?  Alternately, Could Nightblood be a result of a inexperienced shardholder (Sazed) looking for an outlet (Nightblood) which just happened to occur?

Possible? Yes. Likely? Probably not. I'm pretty sure the extra ruin is going into atium... but tbh it's not out of the question. I just also wonder if Harmony is even aware of Nightblood...

[Willshaping Crasher]

15 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Possible? Yes. Likely? Probably not. I'm pretty sure the extra ruin is going into atium... but tbh it's not out of the question. I just also wonder if Harmony is even aware of Nightblood...

I agree it is very unlikely.  However, since you brought up Atium, and I like to play with ideas, Atium affects time......

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Wow! I'm impressed. You know, Vivenna never drew me even once? She carried me for a long time too. Maybe a couple of days even?

"And how long have I been carrying you?"

At least an hour, the sword said , satisfied. One, or two, or ten thousand. Something like that.

So a metal that has a temporal effect, and a sword that doesn't have a clear sense of time........

 

Yes, I'm stretching here.  But it may give other people a better idea.

[Leyrann]

27 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Possible? Yes. Likely? Probably not. I'm pretty sure the extra ruin is going into atium... but tbh it's not out of the question. I just also wonder if Harmony is even aware of Nightblood...

I would agree with this theory, but...

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69-shadows-of-self-release-party/#e5874

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Questioner

I am also wondering, does atium actually still regenerate?

Brandon Sanderson

Atium does not regenerate.

Questioner

It stopped when--

Brandon Sanderson

It stopped when Ati stopped existing. Yep.

 

[TrдVψLшR 0115]

Best band name ever: “theoretical evil peach jar”. The shard of Endowment was obviously part of Nightblood’s creation. I’m not saying anything different from that, but I wonder if anyone can point out behavior (after creation) that would indicate that shards influence on nightblood’s personality. I think we’ve done that pretty well in regards to ruin. @Invocation I agree. What I’m saying is It seems like when Nightblood is used he not only affects the physical but the spiritual also ( similar to how a spike steals and stores).

Leinton (paraphrased)

Does Nightblood rip souls out of people, by chance?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Nightblood consumes Investiture, including the spark of life

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

Yes, I'm stretching here.  But it may give other people a better idea.

The Ruin in Nightblood is not because of atium. 

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any atium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No.

source

The one we got that says he contains Ruin was actually a follow up to this question. Same signing. 

[Willshaping Crasher]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Ruin in Nightblood is not because of atium.

Actually, I was not suggesting Nightblood contains atium.  Merely that atium has a temporal effect and Nightblood seems to have difficulty with properly discerning the passage of time.  Could some part of Ruin's investiture specifically effect time perception? Atium was specific to Scadrial.  If the investiture is dumped on another planet (or object), separate from Scadrial (and we know Harmony is putting it somewhere) does it still have a temporal effect?

As I said, I'm stretching here. Playing with ideas which may give a more cogent theory to someone else.

[TrдVψLшR 0115]

6 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

 Could some part of Ruin's investiture specifically effect time perception? Atium was specific to Scadrial.  If the investiture is dumped on another planet (or object), separate from Scadrial (and we know Harmony is putting it somewhere) does it still have a temporal effect?

That’s a cool idea. I’m totally lost on the timeline that fits the books together. I wonder if the timing works out with Nightblood’s creation and Harmony’s supposed “dumping”. I don’t think Sazed would directly give Nightblood power because that would be insane and reckless. Which is def not Sazed’s personality 

Edited October 7, 2018 by PelekinikeleT

[goody153]

I don't think Sazed could just dump the extra Ruin to Nightblood like it was nothing. 

Don't forget that "extra" ruin is equivalent to literally giving sapience to an entire species(it was equivalent to preservations missing power that gives Scadrians mind/soul) and why Ruin/Preservation are literally equal. 

That was a huge chunk of shard power that would still make Nightblood look insignificant unless Nightblood is heavier than all the people in a Scadrial.

And wasn't there an uppercap something could be invested ? 

[Willshaping Crasher]

16 hours ago, goody153 said:

Don't forget that "extra" ruin is equivalent to literally giving sapience to an entire species(it was equivalent to preservations missing power that gives Scadrians mind/soul) and why Ruin/Preservation are literally equal. 

That was a huge chunk of shard power that would still make Nightblood look insignificant unless Nightblood is heavier than all the people in a Scadrial.

I'm not sure this can be used as a standard.  Humans on Scadrial contain "more" preservation than ruin.  However, what this means is undefined except in esoteric terms such as "imbalance". In addition, I'm not sure weight (heavier/lighter) can be used as a measure.  This could be more cognitive or spiritual.  I'm not sure you can quantify it.

 

[Leyrann]

21 hours ago, goody153 said:

I don't think Sazed could just dump the extra Ruin to Nightblood like it was nothing. 

Don't forget that "extra" ruin is equivalent to literally giving sapience to an entire species(it was equivalent to preservations missing power that gives Scadrians mind/soul) and why Ruin/Preservation are literally equal. 

That was a huge chunk of shard power that would still make Nightblood look insignificant unless Nightblood is heavier than all the people in a Scadrial.

And wasn't there an uppercap something could be invested ? 

4 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I'm not sure this can be used as a standard.  Humans on Scadrial contain "more" preservation than ruin.  However, what this means is undefined except in esoteric terms such as "imbalance". In addition, I'm not sure weight (heavier/lighter) can be used as a measure.  This could be more cognitive or spiritual.  I'm not sure you can quantify it.

 

The chunk Preservation had removed from Ruin was the atium, so I think it's safe to assume that, in physical form, the chunk is equal to all the atium there is. Which, I would say, is quite a bit larger than Nightblood.

[Steeldancer]

The atium I speak of is the theoretical residue from a harmonium explosion, not in the Pits. There’s a long WoB I don’t have time to access at the moment about it.