Kelsier vs. Dalinar

[Aether he/him]

I love how this topic was heavily in favour of Kelsier right at the start, but has now shifted more or less entirely to Dalinar (disregarding the actual votes, that is).

[Numb]

At the end of the day it comes down to what the WoB said. Kel is from Scadrial and he'll do anything he has to to survive. Dalinar is from Roshar which is bound in all these reals and laws of Honor. Kel would just find some way to exploit this to kill Dalinar so there would never be a "fair" fight between the two. The only reason Kel even fought out in the open was because he saw a chance to become more than a man.

 

Fighting is what Alethi do but they do it in a very strict and formal way. Kel has no formal training other than being a mistborn so why would he ever allow himself to get into a fair fight with someone that outmatches him in that regard. If shardplate doesn't stop emotional Allomancy I could see Kel pulling the trick Vin did on Lord Venture. A moment of complete emotional overload would give the perfect opportunity for a killing blow. The only reason it's never done again is because everyone Vin faces after that is either Mistborn or Inquisitor. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by Numb

[Ketek]

At the end of the day it comes down to what the WoB said. Kel is from Scadrial and he'll do anything he has to to survive. Dalinar is from Roshar which is bound in all these reals and laws of Honor. Kel would just find some way to exploit this to kill Dalinar so there would never be a "fair" fight between the two. The only reason Kel even fought out in the open was because he saw a chance to become more than a man.

 

Fighting is what Alethi do but they do it in a very strict and formal way. Kel has no formal training other than being a mistborn so why would he ever allow himself to get into a fair fight with someone that outmatches him in that regard. If shardplate doesn't stop emotional Allomancy I could see Kel pulling the trick Vin did on Lord Venture. A moment of complete emotional overload would give the perfect opportunity for a killing blow. The only reason it's never done again is because everyone Vin faces after that is either Mistborn or Inquisitor. 

 

I'm sorry, but you seem to be forgetting something. Dalinar Kholin is the storming Blackthorn. He's not exactly a fair fighter as well, by all indications. All that honor jibber-jabber came after his brother's assassination; I find it hard to think he wouldn't fight unless it was honorable to. Kaladin was more than willing to sneak attack Eshonai as well, so it's clear the oaths don't exactly bind them to only honorable combat.

 

As for the emotional overload, it might work, but I think Dalinar would still be capable of fighting. You forget that during TWoK, he's still being influenced by the Thrill - I don't think that's something emotional Allomancy would override. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Some clarifications for the battle:

No Atium or duralumin for Kell

Setting: Shattered Plains

Dalinar has no Surgebinding powers.

A face to face duel.

Any other questions?

I'm so glad people started realizing Dalinar's strength. I myself am inclined towards Dalinar, Shardplate is a huge advantage, in my opinion, and the thrill only helps him. With a Shardblade, he could cut some projectiles out of the air and his endurance would be much longer.

[Shaggai]

Some clarifications for the battle:

No Atium or duralumin for Kell

Setting: Shattered Plains

Dalinar has no Surgebinding powers.

A face to face duel.

Any other questions?

I'm so glad people started realizing Dalinar's strength. I myself am inclined towards Dalinar, Shardplate is a huge advantage, in my opinion, and the thrill only helps him. With a Shardblade, he could cut some projectiles out of the air and his endurance would be much longer.

Cutting small projectiles, like coins, out of the air is a fool's game, and Shardblading larger ones does little. The Shardblade does nothing to deflect the objects, it just cuts through them.

Dalinar still wins, of course. Shardplate gives similar abilities to Allomantic pewter, except that it also blocks attacks, so pewter won't help Kelsier. Dalinar can just stand there and take the coins, because coins aren't really designed to do damage and don't have the mass to do more than a little to Shardplate. Eventually, Kelsier runs out of coins, and in close combat Dalinar wins every time.

[Baine he/him]

Remember, Steelpushed coins are comparable to gunshot. With wave after wave of coins, Kelsier could easily break Shardplate.

 

Not that it will be easy for Kell to kill the Storming Blackthorn!

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Shardplate can be dented and broken, but we've always seen it happen after applications of extreme force, like say a Shardhammer or a prolonged battle. Kelsier's coins won't have that much kinetic force behind them, and since it's thrown rather than shot, the scatter would prevent more than a single hit at the same spot, excluding blind luck. Sure, Kelsier's good at steel and iron, but even he doesn't have control that precise. And it's not that hard to keep your eyes protected - he could just swing one-handed and keep one hand close to the visor as a shield of sorts.

I think you're underestimating the force of steelpushing. Remember, Kelsier can kill people with those coins. It takes a lot of force to push something through a body, and it takes a lot of force to push something heavy like a person around, something steelpushing can easily do. Coins are small, so all the force is concentrated. It is certainly capable of shattering plate with a few hits. Even if it doesn't go through, the dents and scratches add up, and Dalinar will get locked up, a perfect target to stab through the eyepiece. If Kelsier is smart and plays keep away with his steelpushing, his odds are pretty good. The threat of the Shardblade does make the matchup volatile, but I'd hand it to Kelsier.

[Ketek]

Remember, Steelpushed coins are comparable to gunshot. With wave after wave of coins, Kelsier could easily break Shardplate.

 

Not that it will be easy for Kell to kill the Storming Blackthorn!

 

I disagree, we've never seen coins break through standard armor in the trilogy. Remember that time when he and Vin entered Kredik Shaw? The guards got killed after they took off their armor, not before. Gunshots have the advantage of being fired from a gun + Allomantic steelpushing. And we must remember that Shardplate > normal armor. I'm not saying it couldn't break Plate at all, but it'd take a storming long time to.

 

I think you're underestimating the force of steelpushing. Remember, Kelsier can kill people with those coins. It takes a lot of force to push something through a body, and it takes a lot of force to push something heavy like a person around, something steelpushing can easily do. Coins are small, so all the force is concentrated. It is certainly capable of shattering plate with a few hits. Even if it doesn't go through, the dents and scratches add up, and Dalinar will get locked up, a perfect target to stab through the eyepiece. If Kelsier is smart and plays keep away with his steelpushing, his odds are pretty good. The threat of the Shardblade does make the matchup volatile, but I'd hand it to Kelsier.

 

And Dalinar + Shardplate is considerably far heavier than the soldiers Kelsier kills. If anything, without an anchor in the opposite direction of the Push he'd get thrown back, which would weaken the coin's blow as Dalinar would then become the anchor for the Push. A few hits? Very, very unlikely, else we'd have seen it happen in the trilogy!

 

Locking Shardplate up takes time, and Kelsier isn't super mobile even with coins. Also, we're assuming he has enough steel to just stay away. Dalinar could just cut stuff out and form a barricade for himself, hide behind natural barriers, that sort of thing. Kelsier would have to come close then. And in melee combat, the Blackthorn wins. Unless atium is brought into play, naturally.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

I disagree, we've never seen coins break through standard armor in the trilogy. Remember that time when he and Vin entered Kredik Shaw? The guards got killed after they took off their armor, not before. Gunshots have the advantage of being fired from a gun + Allomantic steelpushing. And we must remember that Shardplate > normal armor. I'm not saying it couldn't break Plate at all, but it'd take a storming long time to.

You can't really make a direct comparison between shardplate and regular armor. They work on completely different physics. I've never seen slabs of metal shatter or regrow damage.

Yes, it can be said shardplate is better than regular armor but you can't say that just because we've never seen coins penetrate armor in mistborn that must mean they couldn't damage shardplate. I've also never seen someone slam their feet into a suit of armor at high velocity and shatter a piece of the armor. The coins (like bullets) concentrate a massive amount of energy on a small surface area, far more force than Kal would have been able to put into his feet before his bones snapped and dissipated the energy. If Kal could shatter plate with his feet, Kelsier should be able to shatter a piece or two if he has enough coins with him.

Edit: It also seems like a lot of people in here assume Dalinar would know everything a mistborn can do and methods to counteract them. I'm pretty sure Kelsier would have the huge advantage of surprise in this encounter. Shards are pretty straight forward and Kel wouldn't have much problems figuring out that he should keep his distance from metal fists and a giant sword. The speed and strength from the plate might catch him a little off guard but he's used to dealing with pewter mistings so not much of an adjustment. Dalinar on the other hand would have no idea what was going on with Kelsier's abilities.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I disagree, we've never seen coins break through standard armor in the trilogy. Remember that time when he and Vin entered Kredik Shaw? The guards got killed after they took off their armor, not before. Gunshots have the advantage of being fired from a gun + Allomantic steelpushing. And we must remember that Shardplate > normal armor. I'm not saying it couldn't break Plate at all, but it'd take a storming long time to.

 

 

And Dalinar + Shardplate is considerably far heavier than the soldiers Kelsier kills. If anything, without an anchor in the opposite direction of the Push he'd get thrown back, which would weaken the coin's blow as Dalinar would then become the anchor for the Push. A few hits? Very, very unlikely, else we'd have seen it happen in the trilogy!

 

Locking Shardplate up takes time, and Kelsier isn't super mobile even with coins. Also, we're assuming he has enough steel to just stay away. Dalinar could just cut stuff out and form a barricade for himself, hide behind natural barriers, that sort of thing. Kelsier would have to come close then. And in melee combat, the Blackthorn wins. Unless atium is brought into play, naturally.

Maybe my physics here is off, but as far as I can tell shot coins should be just as capable of penetrating armor as bullets.

When you fire a gun, there is, according to Newton's Third Law, an equal and opposite reaction. The force propelling the bullet is equal to the force pushing the gun, and by extension the shooter, back– the recoil. Now, recoil can be pretty powerful in guns, but at most you're just staggering back some. Not really that much acceleration.

Now compare this to a steelpush. With anchored coins, a Coinshot can fly easily from the force produced by a steelpush. You can't do that with a gun. Gun recoil will never be enough to overcome gravity, yet Coinshots can soar through the skies. Both examples have the same effected mass, but drastically differing accelerations. So the force produced by a Coinshot is greater than a gun produces. Of course, more energy will be lost to friction with coins, because coins are nowhere near as aerodynamic, and a coin lacks a penetrating point. Still, I think steelpushed coins should be just as effective a projectile as bullets overall.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I don't think we can dismiss coinshots to not crack shardplate, especially after multiple volleys, and steel and iron aren't nearly as fast burning as pewter, which he wouldn't rely on as much in the fight. Kel would be continually shooting volley after volley of coins at him, which would eventually, even if not at first, cause stormlight to leak.

 

But that's not where Kel's advantage comes into play. The real advantage, comes from the shotgunning effect that was previously mentioned. Dalinar would be leaking stormlight from multiple plates. Even from the tiniest cracks, spread out over the entire plate, front and back, from numerous coinshot volleys, would be enough to lock the plate up. I think in this aspect, someone in regular armor would actually have a greater advantage over someone in plate, because the regular armor would dent instead of cracking and losing power. 

[Ketek]

You can't really make a direct comparison between shardplate and regular armor. They work on completely different physics. I've never seen slabs of metal shatter or regrow damage.

Yes, it can be said shardplate is better than regular armor but you can't say that just because we've never seen coins penetrate armor in mistborn that must mean they couldn't damage shardplate. I've also never seen someone slam their feet into a suit of armor at high velocity and shatter a piece of the armor. The coins (like bullets) concentrate a massive amount of energy on a small surface area, far more force than Kal would have been able to put into his feet before his bones snapped and dissipated the energy. If Kal could shatter plate with his feet, Kelsier should be able to shatter a piece or two if he has enough coins with him.

Edit: It also seems like a lot of people in here assume Dalinar would know everything a mistborn can do and methods to counteract them. I'm pretty sure Kelsier would have the huge advantage of surprise in this encounter. Shards are pretty straight forward and Kel wouldn't have much problems figuring out that he should keep his distance from metal fists and a giant sword. The speed and strength from the plate might catch him a little off guard but he's used to dealing with pewter mistings so not much of an adjustment. Dalinar on the other hand would have no idea what was going on with Kelsier's abilities.

 

Kaladin, unlike a coin, does not have an anchor, and even with multiple Lashings only cracked it, not broke it outright. Bigger surface area impacted too. The force of the coin would, I think, theoretically be lessened since Kelsier can't Steelpush the coin against Dalinar without throwing him back - he'd be lighter, especially since the latter has Plate, so in a sense the worst the coin would do is probably turn Dalinar into an anchor of sorts.

 

And even if regular armor isn't like Shardplate, it would take a leap of logic to suggest that Plate could break so easily. There is a reason Shardplate is used by high-ranking military figures and elite fighters instead of regular armor...

 

Kelsier would be thrown off-guard by Shards too, I think. For starters, he'd think he could push and pull on them, and when he realizes he can't, it's either take potshots and deal little damage, or get in close and risk getting killed.

 

Maybe my physics here is off, but as far as I can tell shot coins should be just as capable of penetrating armor as bullets.

When you fire a gun, there is, according to Newton's Third Law, an equal and opposite reaction. The force propelling the bullet is equal to the force pushing the gun, and by extension the shooter, back– the recoil. Now, recoil can be pretty powerful in guns, but at most you're just staggering back some. Not really that much acceleration.

Now compare this to a steelpush. With anchored coins, a Coinshot can fly easily from the force produced by a steelpush. You can't do that with a gun. Gun recoil will never be enough to overcome gravity, yet Coinshots can soar through the skies. Both examples have the same effected mass, but drastically differing accelerations. So the force produced by a Coinshot is greater than a gun produces. Of course, more energy will be lost to friction with coins, because coins are nowhere near as aerodynamic, and a coin lacks a penetrating point. Still, I think steelpushed coins should be just as effective a projectile as bullets overall.

 

That's because the force from a gun isn't constant, while Allomantic force from steelpushing and ironpulling is. And the question of the anchor returns - it's like trying to shoot a hole in a wall with a coin; you'd just get thrown back.

[Ketek]

I don't think we can dismiss coinshots to not crack shardplate, especially after multiple volleys, and steel and iron aren't nearly as fast burning as pewter, which he wouldn't rely on as much in the fight. Kel would be continually shooting volley after volley of coins at him, which would eventually, even if not at first, cause stormlight to leak.

 

But that's not where Kel's advantage comes into play. The real advantage, comes from the shotgunning effect that was previously mentioned. Dalinar would be leaking stormlight from multiple plates. Even from the tiniest cracks, spread out over the entire plate, front and back, from numerous coinshot volleys, would be enough to lock the plate up. I think in this aspect, someone in regular armor would actually have a greater advantage over someone in plate, because the regular armor would dent instead of cracking and losing power. 

 

Agreed, it would crack it over time. But I highly doubt it'd be enough to break it so soon - we see Shardplate explode all the time, but that's often because someone's bringing out the big guns (Lashings, Shardblade, storming heavy objects). And there's also the question of mass, like I brought up earlier. The coins wouldn't go through, they'd just stick to the Plate and hurl Kelsier away, so while it might break Plate eventually, it'd take too long.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Agreed, it would crack it over time. But I highly doubt it'd be enough to break it so soon - we see Shardplate explode all the time, but that's often because someone's bringing out the big guns (Lashings, Shardblade, storming heavy objects). And there's also the question of mass, like I brought up earlier. The coins wouldn't go through, they'd just stick to the Plate and hurl Kelsier away, so while it might break Plate eventually, it'd take too long.

 

I'm not saying he's going to break the plate, not at all. Arrows have enough force to crack plate enough to leak stormlight, and Kelsier can rain coins on Dalinar like nobody's business. This would lead to widespread cracking across the entire plate, leaking stormlight on a macro level instead of a micro level. Kelsier doesn't need to shatter a single piece in order to win, just damage the plate enough, even just small cracks, to have him leaking stormlight like a broken teakettle that's been glued back together. I also don't think the coins would stick. Kelsier would use them as projectiles only, pushing on them to accelerate, but the letting them do their damage before pulling the back for another pelting. He could potentially be hitting him with hundreds of coinshots every few seconds.

Edited April 30, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Ketek]

Then I guess the question is: Will the coins be accelerated to a velocity fast enough that it can actually crack Shardplate? Man, a WoB would really help here.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Then I guess the question is: Will the coins be accelerated to a velocity fast enough that it can actually crack Shardplate? Man, a WoB would really help here.

If an arrow is enough to crack a plate, coins would have to be.

[Aether he/him]

Though one is designed specifically with a pointy end to increase the localised force of impact, the other is currency with a random point of impact. unless the coin is lucky enough to hit exactly on it's thin side, the angle of the impact is likely to make it hit with its flat side. In fact, when I think about it, unless Luthadelian coins are shaped differently from ours, I fail to see how you could kill even an unprotected person so easily with it.

[Shaggai]

The coins (like bullets) concentrate a massive amount of energy on a small surface area, far more force than Kal would have been able to put into his feet before his bones snapped and dissipated the energy.

Kaladin's legs did actually break. The Stormlight just healed them.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Though one is designed specifically with a pointy end to increase the localised force of impact, the other is currency with a random point of impact. unless the coin is lucky enough to hit exactly on it's thin side, the angle of the impact is likely to make it hit with its flat side. In fact, when I think about it, unless Luthadelian coins are shaped differently from ours, I fail to see how you could kill even an unprotected person so easily with it.

The allomantic acceleration. The same way an egg can go through a brick wall during a highstorm hurricane. In this case, there also isn't just one point of impact, but dozens, all hitting in close proximity in both location and time. The added momentum is surely enough to make up for the less penetrative properties of the coins. Besides, blunt force is better at attacking plate than penetrating.

Edited April 30, 2014 by EMTrevor

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

That's because the force from a gun isn't constant, while Allomantic force from steelpushing and ironpulling is. And the question of the anchor returns - it's like trying to shoot a hole in a wall with a coin; you'd just get thrown back.

Sure, gunshots may have greater initial acceleration. But as they fly, they decelerate. As you noted, steelpushes are constant. They don't decelerate after the initial push. They might not have as great a starting acceleration, but over the duration of the push it increases to the strength where you can fly with a push. All that matters is the acceleration of the object at the point where it hits the Plate. And while steelpushes start slower, by the time it contacts the force should be greater than that of a bullet.

[Awesomeness Summoned he/him]

Then I guess the question is: Will the coins be accelerated to a velocity fast enough that it can actually crack Shardplate? Man, a WoB would really help here.

Yes that is the hinging factor on wether or not coins would have an effect on the plate. If enough speed can be added to the coin before releasing the push, then its possible. If the force of the coin can only be maintained by continuous pushing (resulting in push back) then Kelsier would probably be at a disadvantage.

 

Kaladin's legs did actually break. The Stormlight just healed them.

Yes, I know, that's what I was getting at. A large amount of his force was lost when the bones snapped and he was still able to crack the plate significantly.

[RShara she/her]

Well, Kaladin was going at lots of G's at that point, so high mass+high acceleration over a relatively small area (his feet) means lots of Force.

 

With a Steelpush, the max Force that can be applied is equal to the weight of the anchor, usually the mass of the person Pushing the coins.  Since coins are a lot less massive than a person, the coins can go pretty fast.  If Kelsier were to anchor himself to the point where he could Push the coins to the speed that Kaladin was going, he'd end up breaking his own bones, and Pewter wouldn't be able to heal nearly that fast.  He'd need almost that amount of force in order to even make hairline cracks.

 

A duralumin fueled Pewter+Steelpush would probably crack the Shardplate, and keep him from getting squished, but I don't think regular Steelpushes would do it.

[Ketek]

Pewter wouldn't heal him at all - it's actually quite fascinating, since it adhers to the very concept of preservation - but I digress.

 

Anyway, assuming that RShara's ideas are correct (and I do think they are), it'd mean steelpushing is a no-go. What about duralumin and pewter, though? How strong would it be? The only time we've seen its strength displayed was when Vin obliterated someone's head.

[Shaggai]

Pewter wouldn't heal him at all - it's actually quite fascinating, since it adhers to the very concept of preservation - but I digress.

 

Anyway, assuming that RShara's ideas are correct (and I do think they are), it'd mean steelpushing is a no-go. What about duralumin and pewter, though? How strong would it be? The only time we've seen its strength displayed was when Vin obliterated someone's head.

Pewter does have some healing properties, although they're somewhat minor.

As for durapewter, see this: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7842-kelsier-vs-dalinar/?p=131089 Kell has no duralumin.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Well, Kaladin was going at lots of G's at that point, so high mass+high acceleration over a relatively small area (his feet) means lots of Force.

 

With a Steelpush, the max Force that can be applied is equal to the weight of the anchor, usually the mass of the person Pushing the coins.  Since coins are a lot less massive than a person, the coins can go pretty fast.  If Kelsier were to anchor himself to the point where he could Push the coins to the speed that Kaladin was going, he'd end up breaking his own bones, and Pewter wouldn't be able to heal nearly that fast.  He'd need almost that amount of force in order to even make hairline cracks.

 

A duralumin fueled Pewter+Steelpush would probably crack the Shardplate, and keep him from getting squished, but I don't think regular Steelpushes would do it.

Plate really doesn't seem that strong. The Parshendi were throwing rocks at Shardbearers and getting pretty good results. Arrows can damage plate too, and a coin should at the very least beat that. And the max force is not fully equal to the anchor at all. Strong Allomancers are able to produce much more force than their weight should allow. It's involved, certainly, but it's not a be-all, end-all.

Also, coins are smaller than people. A lot smaller. To accelerate a coin to the speed Kal was going, he'd need nowhere as much force.