An update on current speculation and facts

[king of nowhere]

For logistic reasons I've been unable to read words of radiance until now. So to avoid spoilers I missed all the early speculation and anything sanderson may have said about the book.

 

I figured before posting in this subforum I should get an update, it would be pointless to start threads speculating on stuff that was already answered last month. So I'm offering a shiny upvote and a good bunch of gratitude (that's all I can offer in this forum, I'm afraid) to anyone who can sum up the current state of art on speculations; in particular to the following questions

 

- how did jasnah survive exactly? We've seen her body being stabbed repeatedly; and if only her soul fled, how did she got a new body? What exactly does elsecalling do?

 

- what the hell is nightblood doing on roshar anyway? did hoid bring it? did he gave it to the herald? is hoid friend with the heralds? or it was a 17th sharder?

 

- in his pow during the interlude, zahel mentions investiture. is he more than he appears? if so, what is he? if not, does it means that roshar ardents are more cosmere aware than most?

 

- what happened to the listeners who fled before being turned into voidbringers? are they going to be turned into voidbringers when the everstorm hit them, or is the increased intelligence from not using dullform enough to resist the transformation?

 

- Is ehonai really dead? normally, when the villain fall off a cliff and no body is recovered, the villain survived. it would be especially ironic for her to die when in the same book a character is resurrected after being sliced in half with a shardblade and falling from the sky into a stormfront, and another comes back after being stabbed through the heart onscreen. if she survived, will she be able to reject the voidbringer and come back her real self?  or all her characterization, and the scream in her head, were just going to lead to a downer ending?

 

- was taravangian million-to-one bout of intelligence simple happenstance, or was there some unseen force wanting him to devise the diagram? Is there some occult force interfering there (besiddes hoid and oother worldhoppers, of course, since they would have no way to control mr T's gift/curse)? Did odium plan for it (meaning he can interfere that far)? How much can odium interfere anyway?

 

- there are several mentions of elokar seeing sprens, but he said to kaladin he can't see them anymore. what happened? was he attracting an honorspren becase, while he sucked, he was really trying, and did that spren got offended when elokar tried to have kaladin executed?

 

 

[Moogle]

- how did jasnah survive exactly? We've seen her body being stabbed repeatedly; and if only her soul fled, how did she got a new body? What exactly does elsecalling do?

 

Unknown, but Shallan notes that she could be stabbed with a spear to the gut and be absolutely fine through Stormlight inhalation. Jasnah was right next to a drawer full of gemstones.

 

Elsecalling apparently takes you physically to Shadesmar (or back to the Physical), or else teleports you around in the real world. It's "imprecise".

 

 

- what the hell is nightblood doing on roshar anyway? did hoid bring it? did he gave it to the herald? is hoid friend with the heralds? or it was a 17th sharder?

 

- in his pow during the interlude, zahel mentions investiture. is he more than he appears? if so, what is he? if not, does it means that roshar ardents are more cosmere aware than most?

 

Zahel is Vasher, and brought Nightblood. Zahel is likely on Roshar so he can consume Stormlight to stay alive, rather than eat the souls of people.

 

 

- what happened to the listeners who fled before being turned into voidbringers? are they going to be turned into voidbringers when the everstorm hit them, or is the increased intelligence from not using dullform enough to resist the transformation?

 

Unknown, but I suspect if they stay indoors they should be fine. The mists in Mistborn had issues getting into buildings, so I imagine other vaguely magical phenomenon should have issues too.

 

 

- Is ehonai really dead? normally, when the villain fall off a cliff and no body is recovered, the villain survived. it would be especially ironic for her to die when in the same book a character is resurrected after being sliced in half with a shardblade and falling from the sky into a stormfront, and another comes back after being stabbed through the heart onscreen. if she survived, will she be able to reject the voidbringer and come back her real self?  or all her characterization, and the scream in her head, were just going to lead to a downer ending?

 

She's getting her own book, and she was in Shardplate when she fell. Renarin fell on his head in Shardplate and was fine, and Eshonai was in a rather durable form. I am 95% confident she's fine, though probably doesn't feel very good.

 

 

- was taravangian million-to-one bout of intelligence simple happenstance, or was there some unseen force wanting him to devise the diagram? Is there some occult force interfering there (besiddes hoid and oother worldhoppers, of course, since they would have no way to control mr T's gift/curse)? Did odium plan for it (meaning he can interfere that far)? How much can odium interfere anyway?

 

Unknown. People have speculated that someone is manipulating Taravangian, though given how he created the Diagram (using intelligence and extrapolating from known information, rather than receiving visions of the future), he would probably claim he wasn't influenced by anyone.

 

Mraize, a likely worldhopper, refers to an "old fool [who] sows chaos, but does not reach for the power offered by opportunity", who "hides in his insignificant city, listening to its songs, thinking he plays in world events", which might mean some organizations are aware of Taravangian's goals. It's also possible Mraize was referring to Hoid or something.

 

Odium isn't even on Roshar most of the time apparently (excepting a few times with Szeth), so I doubt he planned for it. Odium hasn't sandblasted the planet, so he was probably bound by Honor to be incapable of attacking the planet directly, instead having to fight through use of intermediaries like the Voidbringers. This is speculation however.

 

 

- there are several mentions of elokar seeing sprens, but he said to kaladin he can't see them anymore. what happened? was he attracting an honorspren becase, while he sucked, he was really trying, and did that spren got offended when elokar tried to have kaladin executed?

 

The spren he saw were described as having symbols for heads, so they were likely Cryptics. Kaladin came, and they ran away. We've had tons of speculation on this, and no consensus was reached.

 

I myself believe Kaladin is inspiring Elhokar to be a better person and because of this Elhokar was too deluded to realize he's an incompetent, which drove away the Cryptics. Cryptics value self-knowledge, and Lightweavers fool other people, not themselves. Elhokar could have been a Lightweaver, but now he wants to be a good king and thinks he can be with some work, so he's sort of denying himself.

 

 

You will probably really want to read all the WoBs, collected here courtesy of RShara.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Moogle

[RShara she/her]

Most likely, Jasnah survived via Stormlight Healing, then Elsecalled into Shadesmar, and took that long to come back.

 

No information yet on how Nightblood got to Roshar.  It's assumed that Vasher lost him somehow.

 

Zahel is Vasher

 

We think that those listeners that are not parshmen should be safe from being turned into Voidbringers involuntarily--the sprens that they are already bonded with *should* protect them.  But we don't know for sure.

 

No clue on Eshonai, but current speculation expects that yes, she is alive.

 

It's suspected that there is some force influencing Taravangian, other than his boon/curse, but again, no real evidence.

 

Elhokar probably saw cryptics.  If so, then they are likely avoiding notice by Syl, since Cryptics and Honorspren don't get along.

 

Edit:  Ninja'd!

Edited April 28, 2014 by RShara

[A Joe in the Bush]

- what the hell is nightblood doing on roshar anyway? did hoid bring it? did he gave it to the herald? is hoid friend with the heralds? or it was a 17th sharder?

 

- in his pow during the interlude, zahel mentions investiture. is he more than he appears? if so, what is he? if not, does it means that roshar ardents are more cosmere aware than most?

Zahel is Vasher from Warbreaker. It's assumed that the Heralds can Worldhop. The Herald at the end took it 12 years ago, Vasher followed him to Roshar.

 

 

- what happened to the listeners who fled before being turned into voidbringers? are they going to be turned into voidbringers when the everstorm hit them, or is the increased intelligence from not using dullform enough to resist the transformation?

 

- Is ehonai really dead? normally, when the villain fall off a cliff and no body is recovered, the villain survived. it would be especially ironic for her to die when in the same book a character is resurrected after being sliced in half with a shardblade and falling from the sky into a stormfront, and another comes back after being stabbed through the heart onscreen. if she survived, will she be able to reject the voidbringer and come back her real self?  or all her characterization, and the scream in her head, were just going to lead to a downer ending?

 

They still live. Ralane will be looking for them in book 3 we think. And I don't know If Eshonai lives, though I think she has a Flashback book?

 

- was taravangian million-to-one bout of intelligence simple happenstance, or was there some unseen force wanting him to devise the diagram? Is there some occult force interfering there (besiddes hoid and oother worldhoppers, of course, since they would have no way to control mr T's gift/curse)? Did odium plan for it (meaning he can interfere that far)? How much can odium interfere anyway?

 

- there are several mentions of elokar seeing sprens, but he said to kaladin he can't see them anymore. what happened? was he attracting an honorspren becase, while he sucked, he was really trying, and did that spren got offended when elokar tried to have kaladin executed?

 

Taravangian, No idea. Maybe Cultivation made sure he would do that? or an Unmade?

 

On Elokar, I believe he was attracting some sort of Odium Spren, and Syl chased them away.

 

Edit: Double Ninja'd! What!

Edited April 28, 2014 by The Only Joe

[Aether he/him]

This was a really cool way to get up to date. I guess it beats my full two days reading everything everywhere after my two month's hiatus.

[Aleksiel]

- how did jasnah survive exactly? We've seen her body being stabbed repeatedly; and if only her soul fled, how did she got a new body? What exactly does elsecalling do?

 

Shallan knocked a goblet of spheres on the floor  when she woke up in her cabin, so it's likely some of them rolled out of the door close enough for Jasnah to inhale. Shallan and Kaladin both healed themselves from their drop in the chasms with some spheres, so Jasnah likely did the same. I think there was WoB her last thought was of escaping, so she might have unconsciously elsecalled herself. 

 

Elsecalling is a fast means of travel, probably what the legends of Radiants being able to travel hundreds of miles in a heartbeat originated from. (If you recall Teft telling this to Kal in WoK)

 

 

- in his pow during the interlude, zahel mentions investiture. is he more than he appears? if so, what is he? if not, does it means that roshar ardents are more cosmere aware than most?

 

 

He's Vasher. Some ardent are definitely cosmic aware like the one sketching the bridgemen's tattoos that Rock shooed away. He's likely Nazh.

 

 

- what the hell is nightblood doing on roshar anyway? did hoid bring it? did he gave it to the herald? is hoid friend with the heralds? or it was a 17th sharder?

 

Same thing he does everywhere else - destroying evil! Or at least aiming to. Vasher probably lost or gave him away considering how he said he wished he had made the choice that would've let him sleep at night. I really don't know if Hoid is friends with anyone. He claimed to be Dalinar's friend, yet said he would let Roshar burn if it meant he would get whet he wanted. Considering how Heralds primary purpose was to not let Roshar be destroyed, my spheres are on Hoid not being friends with them.

 

 

 

- what happened to the listeners who fled before being turned into voidbringers? are they going to be turned into voidbringers when the everstorm hit them, or is the increased intelligence from not using dullform enough to resist the transformation?

They are likely still themselves. I don't think Brandon would have wrote them fleeing away only to have them turned into stormform at the end of WoR.

 

 

- Is ehonai really dead? normally, when the villain fall off a cliff and no body is recovered, the villain survived. it would be especially ironic for her to die when in the same book a character is resurrected after being sliced in half with a shardblade and falling from the sky into a stormfront, and another comes back after being stabbed through the heart onscreen. if she survived, will she be able to reject the voidbringer and come back her real self?  or all her characterization, and the scream in her head, were just going to lead to a downer ending?

 

Basically no PoV character died in WoR, so she's likely alive. She's far too interesting, getting her own book and it would be nice to have a Voidbringer PoV (well, she might not be a voidbringer, but you get my point). She was in a form meant to survive a storm and with a Shardplate. Plus she was pushed by Adolin into the chasms, so drawning would have been her main concern rather then being thrown in the air like those enormous rock Kal saw.

 

 

 

- was taravangian million-to-one bout of intelligence simple happenstance, or was there some unseen force wanting him to devise the diagram? Is there some occult force interfering there (besiddes hoid and oother worldhoppers, of course, since they would have no way to control mr T's gift/curse)? Did odium plan for it (meaning he can interfere that far)? How much can odium interfere anyway?

 

He doesn't remember writing it, only vague recollections. It could indicate it wasn't him who wrote it or he had help or nothing. There are some speculations if Odium has something to do with it, but nothing certain. The Ghostbloods likely know about the Diagram and only Brandon knows how many even more secret societies.

 

 

 

- there are several mentions of elokar seeing sprens, but he said to kaladin he can't see them anymore. what happened? was he attracting an honorspren becase, while he sucked, he was really trying, and did that spren got offended when elokar tried to have kaladin executed?

 

They either hid from Kal/Syl or Elhokar strayed away from the path of becoming a Radiant. There were speculations those were voidspren, but it's an unlikely theory at the moment. Some people think Elhokar saw Cryptics, others lean towards Willshaper's spren, because it would match his personality.

 

If they were Cryptyc, I highly doubt they were there because they wanted to bond with him, probably just spying on the king. Elhokar has shown no creativity so far. Shallan was creative before she became delusional. But they might not have been Cryptics despite the symbol heads. He saw them in mirrors which hasn't happened to Shallan, he spoke of shadows which Jasnah experienced in the prologue, so we'll see.

[Aether he/him]

But they might not have been Cryptics despite the symbol heads. He saw them in mirrors which hasn't happened to Shallan, he spoke of shadows which Jasnah experienced in the prologue, so we'll see.

This almost makes it sound like thet are in fact several different Spren. Maybe Elhokar will be the first ever Super Radiant, a Stormborn with access to all Nahel Spren and all Surges?

[Aleksiel]

This almost makes it sound like thet are in fact several different Spren. Maybe Elhokar will be the first ever Super Radiant, a Stormborn with access to all Nahel Spren and all Surges?

 

The burdens of nine become Elhokar's. Why must he carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release him.

[king of nowhere]

thanks for all the cool answers.

Well, I correctly spotted zahel being more than a simple ardent, but I'd never thought he was vasher; that explains nightblood probably, although now the question is shifted to how HE got there. But not surprising, he's been living 300 years already by the time in warbreaker, he was very expert in magic, he could probably figure out worldhopping eventually. and then get involved.

I also figured the ardent that was sketching the tattoos was likely nazh. Is there some other easter egg I missed there?

[maxal she/her]

This almost makes it sound like thet are in fact several different Spren. Maybe Elhokar will be the first ever Super Radiant, a Stormborn with access to all Nahel Spren and all Surges?

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh no no no! I have said it over and over again, if Elhokar becomes a Radiant, I'll through my book away! Him not only becoming a Radiant, but a super Radiant! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

 

I do not want to see *that*. And I certainly hope we won't. Elhokar has demonstrated no quality that would fit any order. He is no lightweaver (we already have one anyway), he is no willshaper (I would rather see Eshonai in this role) and he certainly is no Dustbringer (I really want to see Adolin there so badly). All the other orders are accounted for.

 

My two cents as to why he is seeing shadows are he is seeing voidsprens. Corrupting the king of Alethkar would be a good tactical move for Odium. As a character, Elhokar could end up redeeming himself by sacrificing his life, him how is so afraid of dying. It would be a nice story arc for him.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

 

 

If they were Cryptyc, I highly doubt they were there because they wanted to bond with him, probably just spying on the king. Elhokar has shown no creativity so far. Shallan was creative before she became delusional. But they might not have been Cryptics despite the symbol heads. He saw them in mirrors which hasn't happened to Shallan, he spoke of shadows which Jasnah experienced in the prologue, so we'll see.

 

I very much agree with this. We have a precedent for a Cryptic spying on a king. The very first time that Shallan draws a Cryptic is when she's doing the portrait of King T. Then, they disappear until after she steals the Soulcaster and attempts to Soulcast. Then there's the death rattle that also hints at cryptics hanging around Kharbranth. 

[Patrick Star]

Fantasy/Magic Rule 2: If you don't have the body of the target, the target isn't dead.

 

Fantasy/Magic Rule 3: Even if you have the body, cut off the head and skewer the brain.  Otherwise, the target will likely return to life.

 

By Rule 2, Eshonai is alive.

 

Jasnah and Szeth both fit in Rule 3.

 

I suspect that Jasnah is still alive because her brain was intact.  From the time of her stabbing to Shallan sinking the ship, she was likely still alive enough to elsecall out of there. 

[Aether he/him]

Speaking of Jasnah, I am surprised that Shallan hasn't considered the possibility that she would have been able to survive that stabbing with Stormlight healing. That wouldn't necessarily make her think she's alive, but it would make her feel guilty of letting her drown (as she most likely was not aware of her ability to Elsecall). Then again, Shallan is rather good at suppressing unwanted truths.

[Aoibheann she/her]

Shallan assumes the assassins took Jasnah's body & trunk above. When the trunk shows up unharmed on land, Shallan still doesn't revise her assumption about Jasnah.

[RShara she/her]

Shallan is good about not thinking about things she doesn't want to think about, particularly unpleasant ones.

[Sphinx]

Speaking of Jasnah, I am surprised that Shallan hasn't considered the possibility that she would have been able to survive that stabbing with Stormlight healing. That wouldn't necessarily make her think she's alive, but it would make her feel guilty of letting her drown (as she most likely was not aware of her ability to Elsecall). Then again, Shallan is rather good at suppressing unwanted truths.

 

I think it's less that Shallan "is suppressing unwanted truths" and more that Shallan has way too many other things to think about, and even if she did, she just does not have the information that would suggest that Jasnah is anything but dead.

 

At the time of Jasnah's death, Shallan has pretty much no knowledge of stormlight healing powers. She first learns it in the middle of the Frostlands, while healing her feet. She doesn't seem to understand the full potential of it until she manages to survive the huge drop to the chasm floor during Ialai's assassination attempt. Prior to this point, there is no reason for it to even occur to her that stormlight healing might have saved Jasnah. She's even unsure of how it works then, particularly as she thinks she must somehow have saved Kaladin. At the end of the book, she comments about taking a spear to the stomach, but that is less immediately fatal than a dagger straight through the heart.

 

Even if she reflected back on Jasnah's death, there would be nothing in her memory to suggest that Jasnah had suddenly received an influx of stormlight to heal her. Note that when the assassins drag Jasnah out, she's already staring sightlessly, with blood on her nightgown: they think they've already killed her. The stab Shallan witnesses is to "be sure."

 

 

Shallan assumes the assassins took Jasnah's body & trunk above. When the trunk shows up unharmed on land, Shallan still doesn't revise her assumption about Jasnah.

Why should she?  The assassins likely did take the trunk above, as we find out that the Ghostbloods wanted the information and that was the one with all of Jasnah's books. Just because the trunk washed up and Jasnah didn't, doesn't mean Shallan should revise her assumption that Jasnah is dead.