WOB: Kelsier's stuck on Scadrial (!)

[+robardin]

(Secret History spoilers galore)

 

 

Apparently, Kelsier is "bound" to Scadrial similar to spren on Roshar because of the way "it" happened, and "the level and the type of Investiture involved":

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10799

So, theories about Kelsier going worldhopping and running the Ghostbloods are killed, I guess, unless of course the GBs are reporting to him by traveling to Scadrial, or meeting in Shadesmar somewhere in its vicinity.

I wonder what he meant by "it" is here, though:

• What Preservation did to "spren-ify" him so he would no longer be pulled toward the Beyond while a Cognitive Shadow?
• The expansion of his soul in taking up Preservation for a period as a Shadow?
• The "Connection Bomb" thingy from the Ire that he used to be able to do that in the first place?
• Whatever it is he's done since Secret History to re-enter the Physical Realm that involves an Inquisitor-like eye-spike?

[Calderis]

He felt the pull keeping him from leaving when he tried to go to the Ire. 

It's that Preservation's Investiture anchored his soul (replaced, suffused, whatever) when he entered the well as a CS. 

[+Child of Hodor]

 

Quote

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)
#5

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Shades (Threnody Cognitive Shadows) Heralds and Spren also have this problem. I would have thought spiking a body to get connection to the Physical realm would solve the problem, but that's not the case. Heralds can "world hop" within the Roshar system, but not outside of it.  

Vasher is a Returned (another type of cognitive shadow) and can world hop, but must have figured out what he needed to do. Maybe gaining Connection to something outside Nalthis, which would be hard if he can't leave the system until he gets Connection to something outside it. 

Here is a WoB with @Calderis's favorite thing: Brandon using "Soul" to describe a Cognitive Realm entity. 

 

Quote

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016

#16 

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[RShara]

I did ask about whether the Cognitive Shadow was a copy of the Spiritual or Cognitive. He kinda hedged about it and said it was a philosophical debate type question. I'll post it here when I get it transcribed. It's waaaaay at the end so will be a bit.

[Isilel]

On 21.9.2018 at 4:57 PM, robardin said:

(Secret History spoilers galore)

 

 

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10799

So, theories about Kelsier going worldhopping and running the Ghostbloods are killed, I guess, unless of course the GBs are reporting to him by traveling to Scadrial, or meeting in Shadesmar somewhere in its vicinity.

 

Yea, and I was so sure that Kelsier either created or was part of the Ghostbloods, given that his stated goals at the end of SH align so well with theirs. And also because both Marsh and Harmony hinted in the Second Era series that they hadn't talked to him for a long time. And given that our beloved local deity has an in-built line to Kelsier through his spike, there isn't much that can account for this breakdown in communications now that we know that Kelsier didn't leave Scadrial. The only explanation I can come up with is that he put himself into a massive cadmium time-bubble for some reason and is going to do the "once and future king", or possibly "Merlin" when he reappears.
 Maybe he is afraid of becoming as jaded and devoid of empathy as TLR, if he lives through all the centuries?

Also, it seems that worldhopping is something that Kelsier could eventually figure out, so it is doubly surprising that he didn't yet, given his maverick and relentless personality. But then, if he chose to skip a century or 2, this would explain it.

 

On 21.9.2018 at 7:25 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Shades (Threnody Cognitive Shadows) Heralds and Spren also have this problem.

Yet, apparently, the Shades manage to escape into inter-world Cognitive frequently enough that defense against them is an on-going concern for the Ire. As to the Spren, there are many WoBs that they can be taken off-world, but there is a trick to it that has to be figured out first. And now with Hoid having been confirmed by WoB as a bona fide Radiant Lightweaver, rather than just a caretaker for an orphaned Cryptic and what is more, that he wanted and schemed to bond a Cryptic for some time in order to get connection to Rosharan magic, we have a character who has both motivation and means to learn how to do it ASAP. Unless he already knows, that is. Oh, and he just might share this knowledge with select others.

And then, there is this WoB, of course, that suggests that taking spren to another world has happened in the past:

 

Quote

 

Alex Hetu

If you went to Shadesmar on Scadrial would there be spren there?

Brandon Sanderson

"Spren" is a term for things on Roshar. So yes, there are a few, but they're from Roshar originally.

source

 

 

 

[+Child of Hodor]

45 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yet, apparently, the Shades manage to escape into inter-world Cognitive frequently enough that defense against them is an on-going concern for the Ire. As to the Spren, there are many WoBs that they can be taken off-world, but there is a trick to it that has to be figured out first. And now with Hoid having been confirmed by WoB as a bona fide Radiant Lightweaver, rather than just a caretaker for an orphaned Cryptic and what is more, that he wanted and schemed to bond a Cryptic for some time in order to get connection to Rosharan magic, we have a character who has both motivation and means to learn how to do it ASAP. Unless he already knows, that is. Oh, and he just might share this knowledge with select others.

And then, there is this WoB, of course, that suggests that taking spren to another world has happened in the past:

Yeah, they can all potentially world hop, but not without doing something special first. A Spren bonded to someone who can already world hop, like Hoid, can probably go with since their souls are bonded, they are part of the same being at the spiritual level. 

It probably has to do with the interplay of Connection and Identity that determines how connected a being is to different investiture throughout the Cosmere. They have to either link to a different planets investiture or "blank" part of their identity & connection to sever the link to the planet they are on. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Identity

Edited September 27, 2018 by Child of Hodor

[Calderis]

49 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yet, apparently, the Shades manage to escape into inter-world Cognitive frequently enough that defense against them is an on-going concern for the Ire.

Shades are never mentioned by the Ire. 

Quote

“How would a Threnodite have made it all the way here?” the other guard snapped. “It defies reason, I tell you.”

There is not even the assumption that it is a Cognitive Shadow conveyed. Just that they worry about Threnodites. The closest we get to anything name at all is this. 

Quote

Well, well,” the ancient creature said. “My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain? The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage. Engage the device.”

Whether what they fear is a group or a force, I think that assuming this is the Shades themselves is flawed. They don't seem sapient enough to be a worry. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by Calderis

[HSuperLee]

Now I'm wondering if Kelseir's cognitive shadow, if provided enough investiture, could learn to form a bond with someone and form a shardblade.

[+Child of Hodor]

44 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Shades are never mentioned by the Ire. 

There is not even the assumption that it is a Cognitive Shadow conveyed. Just that they worry about Threnodites. The closest we get to anything name at all is this. 

Whether what they fear is a group or a force, I think that assuming this is the Shades themselves is flawed. They don't seem sapient enough to be a worry. 

This could refer to Nazh. Nazh and Kriss met Kelsier in MB:SH and told him where the Ire are. Nazh must have come across the Ire prior to this. 

Quote

Khriss and Nazh met with Kelsier in the middle of Lake Luthadel's impression in the Cognitive Realm. They introduced him to the basics of the cosmere. Nazh gave Kelsier his knife and directed him to the Ire, a group of Elantrian worldhoppers in the west.^[7]

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Nazrilof

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, HSuperLee said:

Now I'm wondering if Kelseir's cognitive shadow, if provided enough investiture, could learn to form a bond with someone and form a shardblade.

Kelsier could bond with someone.  Unknown whether or not he would be able to Shardblad-ify himself.  

Quote

Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

[Isilel]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Whether what they fear is a group or a force, I think that assuming this is the Shades themselves is flawed. They don't seem sapient enough to be a worry. 

But the device didn't affect flesh-and-blood entitities like the Ire and their guards? It also didn't affect Kelsier, of course, but one can, IMHO, assume that it was targeted at specific kind of investiture. And well, of course Shades would be a worry if they appear somewhere unexpected. They are a constant worry even on their home turf, where people know how to avoid angering them.

[Quantus]

On Kelsier being stuck, the time we saw him he'd entered the CR as a spirit and been stalled there with Preservation's Investiture.  But now that he has a physical body again, would be be similarly bound or would the fact that he'd been stapled to a Body let him travel more like the Returned are apparently able?

[RShara]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

On Kelsier being stuck, the time we saw him he'd entered the CR as a spirit and been stalled there with Preservation's Investiture.  But now that he has a physical body again, would be be similarly bound or would the fact that he'd been stapled to a Body let him travel more like the Returned are apparently able?

A recent WoB says he hasn't figured out how to leave Scadrial.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

On Kelsier being stuck, the time we saw him he'd entered the CR as a spirit and been stalled there with Preservation's Investiture.  But now that he has a physical body again, would be be similarly bound or would the fact that he'd been stapled to a Body let him travel more like the Returned are apparently able?

The Heralds also have bodies, but are still bound. 

Quote

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

source

A body helps, but is not enough to overcome the problem in itself. 

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Heralds also have bodies, but are still bound. 

A body helps, but is not enough to overcome the problem in itself. 

Ah, fair enough. I was viewing it from the other direction, thinking the Heralds in particular were different and/or more stapled to the location for their own reasons.  Specifically, their Braize travel and reincarnation cycle makes me think they arent using their own "real" body the way Returned do.  Also, Stormlight overall being more tied to the ecosystem than other places, and the heralds themselves being part of a Trap very specifically intended to hold things to the system.  But even if those are factors for the Heralds it sounds like the problem is more fundamental.