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Did Nohadon create new Spren?

Lirins hand

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If measuring/defining a spren contains/restricts it (the two ardents in tWoK) and

If surge binding is potentially more destructive than the unmade (Nohadon in tWoK) and

If Nohadon was looking for a way to control or minimize the danger of the surgebinders after the last desolation (Dalinar vision in tWoK),

Could he have created the KR by defining/restricting the spren that enable the surgebinding? In one fell swoop limiting the danger of the renegade surgebinders as well as creating the 10 orders to support the Heralds and the squires to support them? Before he codified the KR, did a surgebinder have to speak any oaths? Or could they just accept a bond and off they go "being awesome"?

I thought WoB was that spren have changed over time. Did all these types of spren exist when people first got to Roshar? Are spren gaining something from human bonding that they don't get from bonding the native species (parshendi)? Is it as innocent as we think it is or is there a hidden dimension to it that we don't know (Tara's secret to break the KR again)? The Recreance was humanity ridding itself of the vampiric spren? (Don't like that one so much)

So the other side of that is, if by defining a concept (spren) you are containing it, can you create new concepts (spren) for specific purposes by getting others to accept the idea? Cognitive belief creating a change in the physical? Could "I believe the sky is down so I fly" not lead to "I believe only a certain type of spren called honor spren can bond with windrunners and only if they hold to these ideals"? And if I write it down and everyone accepts the definition, it eventually becomes true.

I had about 20 other thoughts that all swirled around to Nohadon creating new spren by defining the surgebinders or just limiting the existing spren and how they can interact with their bond partners. But now I can't remember the rest. I will add this: history is written by the winners but it is also constantly being re-written - Jasnah's frustration - so the only true history we have is contained in Dalinar's visions . Everything else presented as fact is suspect, I think.

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Very thought provoking. 

I have seen other users on here, I think @Argent in particular, sound as though they had evidence that only certain types of spren could be manipulated or certain characteristics of them. I wish I knew more, and maybe this is the place to request WoB or some concrete evidence for that. 

This topic really got me thinking though, so thank you. I think I came to a slightly different question though. If certain forces of nature are just "an agreement between friends" (paraphrasing) according to Syl, and we know that they are based on the beliefs of the people on the planet, could it wipe out just about everything if all of the humans were destroyed? Maybe this is a purpose/goal of the Desolations? To reset the planet, spren, forces of nature, etc. by wiping out those who maintain the cognitive element of things? Not sure if there is a connection there.

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"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."


Provides a possible mechanism by which the Bond spren were deliberately changed from what they were. If so one may presume Nohandon bound them to the first ideal.

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Spren seem to be the product of two things: abstract (this doesn't seem like the right adjective, but it is hopefully in the right direction) thought and investiture.


WoB is that there were spren from investiture left by Adonalsium.  Presumably some of the native species adapted to take advantage of some of these: greatshells, parshendi, aimians, skyeels?, ... . 


Then H+C came, providing investiture and bringing people (including Heralds) (adapting the mythology, I don't know that this is canon).  Presumably the investiture and thought of the people created new spren. 


After a time, Odium came along (bringing his unmade, I think) and maybe created spren.  Eventually he created new spren for the listeners that turned them into Voidbringers (my interpretation of the epigraphs). 


Then spren copied the Heralds and bonded to create Surgebinders. Presumably these are new spren formed from the investiture provided by H+C.  This seems to correspond to the time of Nohadon, who formed the Radiants following a Desolation (if we believe the vision from tWoK). 


There is an epigraph in WoR that suggests  that Ishi was also somehow involved in creating the Oath system to restrain the behaviors of Surgebinders and that the surge pairings were deliberately set up then.  I don't know how to figure out who did what to constrain the spren behavior.  The Heralds had already been around with the same surge pairings and the spren supposedly copied them, so I are confused.


After H was splintered there was a proliferation of spren that acted as a release for the investiture.  Presumably these are the ones that you see in tWoK that are not in the visions that Dalinar sees.  Are these new types or are they more of existing types?


I hope this helps the discussion.

Edited by hoser
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