Can Cultivation cultivate an heir?

[animalia]

I was thinking if Cultivation ever began to lose herself would her intent allow her to cultivate an heir to her shard, someone who would be able able to pick it up where she left off and continue even better at it then she had perhaps?

[Fanghur Rahl]

12 hours ago, animalia said:

I was thinking if Cultivation ever began to lose herself would her intent allow her to cultivate an heir to her shard, someone who would be able able to pick it up where she left off and continue even better at it then she had perhaps?

I strongly suspect that that’s exactly what is going to end up happening. My personal hunch is that it might end up being Navani, especially if Dalinar does end up becoming Honor or Unity or what-have-you. After all, a big part of Cultivation’s intent is progression and refinement, and Navani is an artifabrian; striving for progress and advancement is kinda her thing. I think the current Cultivation will ultimately either baton pass the Shard, or sacrifice herself in some way to defeat Odium and join Tanavast in the Beyond.

[animalia]

Also one of the things working in Cultivation’s favor is that she has a VERY COMPLEX intent that gives her a LOT of leway in how she interprets it. And I think it’s one of the things that’s been in her favor. 

Speaking of I think I heard speculation that she has decided to cultivate honor’s remains so that it will turn into Unity.

Well’s here’s a related idea, what if the idea isn’t JUST to destroy Rasye, but Cultivate the shardic intent and a new shardberer so it CAN BECOME Passion. 

Will explain more in the next post. On phone at lunch goota go for now.

 

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 hour ago, animalia said:

Also one of the things working in Cultivation’s favor is that she has a VERY COMPLEX intent that gives her a LOT of leway in how she interprets it. And I think it’s one of the things that’s been in her favor. 

Speaking of I think I heard speculation that she has decided to cultivate honor’s remains so that it will turn into Unity.

Well’s here’s a related idea, what if the idea isn’t JUST to destroy Rasye, but Cultivate the shardic intent and a new shardberer so it CAN BECOME Passion. 

Will explain more in the next post. On phone at lunch goota go for now.

 

Honestly, even though I don’t think it’s too likely, my personal hope is that eventually Cultivation will baton pass the Shard to Sazed/Harmony, because to be honest, that’s where I think it should go. Harmony currently only holds two out of three of the Shards of the change-trinity, and I think if he acquired Cultivation as well it would effectively complete him. But honestly, as much as I would like that to happen, I really don’t think that it will.

[goody153]

If Preservation can do it. I'm certain cultivation can prepare her own heir.

11 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

I strongly suspect that that’s exactly what is going to end up happening. My personal hunch is that it might end up being Navani, especially if Dalinar does end up becoming Honor or Unity or what-have-you. After all, a big part of Cultivation’s intent is progression and refinement, and Navani is an artifabrian; striving for progress and advancement is kinda her thing. I think the current Cultivation will ultimately either baton pass the Shard, or sacrifice herself in some way to defeat Odium and join Tanavast in the Beyond.

I never understood the overestimation of Navani's importance. Like people say she's gonna be a bondsmith or apprentice bondsmith or something.

She's like teshav just married to Dalinar like she's just another noble. She's not really somebody that important in a Rosharian-desolation conflict scale. 

[animalia]

9 hours ago, animalia said:

Also one of the things working in Cultivation’s favor is that she has a VERY COMPLEX intent that gives her a LOT of leway in how she interprets it. And I think it’s one of the things that’s been in her favor. 

Speaking of I think I heard speculation that she has decided to cultivate honor’s remains so that it will turn into Unity.

Well’s here’s a related idea, what if the idea isn’t JUST to destroy Rasye, but Cultivate the shardic intent and a new shardberer so it CAN BECOME Passion. 

Will explain more in the next post. On phone at lunch goota go for now.

 

Now that I have had more time to think on things I am not AS sure about this part. It was probably a dead end. I am going back to my original idea.

Edited September 10, 2018 by animalia

[animalia]

7 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Honestly, even though I don’t think it’s too likely, my personal hope is that eventually Cultivation will baton pass the Shard to Sazed/Harmony, because to be honest, that’s where I think it should go. Harmony currently only holds two out of three of the Shards of the change-trinity, and I think if he acquired Cultivation as well it would effectively complete him. But honestly, as much as I would like that to happen, I really don’t think that it will.

What’s this about a change trinity?

[DracostarA]

4 hours ago, animalia said:

What’s this about a change trinity?

I'm assuming they mean Cultivation + Preservation + Ruin forms the full cycle of change. Growth, followed by stagnation, followed by decay. Having all three Shards might give Sazed the capacity to actually do things with his power.

[Fanghur Rahl]

5 hours ago, animalia said:

What’s this about a change trinity?

@DracostarA is right, it’s a term I coined to describe the three Shards whose intents directly relate to change or the lack thereof.

Ruin: regression, decay, destruction, disorder.

Preservation: stasis, stagnation, stability.

Cultivation: progression, growth, transformation, refinement.

And I have a theory that part of the reason Sazed has problems is that the two Shards he holds are counter to his true nature and desires, which is a teacher. What do teachers do? They teach; they help people progress in their thinking; they cultivate people. That’s another reason why I think if he got Cultivation as well, it would effectively complete him. But like I said, that’s most likely just a dream.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Fanghur Rahl

[CrazyRioter]

I'd be shocked if Culti doesn't have at least a contingency plan in case she gets killed, assuming getting killed isn't part of her plan in the first place. Maybe she's grooming Lift as her heir?

[Fanghur Rahl]

56 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I'd be shocked if Culti doesn't have at least a contingency plan in case she gets killed, assuming getting killed isn't part of her plan in the first place. Maybe she's grooming Lift as her heir?

Planning ahead isn’t really Lift’s thing; quite the opposite in fact.

[Quantus]

Im pretty sure "Cultivating a Shardic Heir/Champion" is precisely what she did with Dalinar, and it was simply a role of the dice on whether he'd grow up to be Odium's Champion or Honor's.  I could easily see her doing something similar for herself, though I REALLY dont expect it to be as mundane as a Human; at the very least the Singers are more adapted to her intent (Talk about a Form of Power!). For a Human I fully expect there to be a Nightmother Bondsmith (and Navani is as good a guess as any) but I dont really think her "Heir" will be just some chosen mortal, especially if that's already what's happening with Dalinar and Honor/Unity, if she's Cultivating a new host for the currently Unclaimed Shard (first priority anyway).

 

Are we assuming she'd not also taking steps to "Cultivate" Hoid?

[CrazyRioter]

10 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Planning ahead isn’t really Lift’s thing; quite the opposite in fact.

She's 14. She's still maturing.

[Fanghur Rahl]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

She's 14. She's still maturing.

Touché. I still much prefer it to go to Sazed though.

[animalia]

On 9/10/2018 at 4:02 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

@DracostarA is right, it’s a term I coined to describe the three Shards whose intents directly relate to change or the lack thereof.

Ruin: regression, decay, destruction, disorder.

Preservation: stasis, stagnation, stability.

Cultivation: progression, growth, transformation, refinement.

And I have a theory that part of the reason Sazed has problems is that the two Shards he holds are counter to his true nature and desires, which is a teacher. What do teachers do? They teach; they help people progress in their thinking; they cultivate people. That’s another reason why I think if he got Cultivation as well, it would effectively complete him. But like I said, that’s most likely just a dream.

Whoever came up with this idea doesn’t understand how Cultivating things works. Remember when Cultivation mentioned “pruning” Dalinar’s memories. Do you know what pruning is? Is basically removing growth you don’t want. Cultivaion Does BOTH death AND Growth. That’s how cultivation works. For example, you burn dead grass so that’s the ashes can as fertilizer for  new growth. Cultivation doesn’t NEED to be part of a change cycle because that’s how her whole intent works to begin with.

 The only question is would she want to stay as cultivation or Cultivate her intent to something else. If it changes to something else my guess would be Hope, but that assumes it needs to change.

[animalia]

On 9/10/2018 at 3:12 AM, DracostarA said:

I'm assuming they mean Cultivation + Preservation + Ruin forms the full cycle of change. Growth, followed by stagnation, followed by decay. Having all three Shards might give Sazed the capacity to actually do things with his power.

You are who I meant to quote to begin with. I am on a phone so editing capabilities are limited, but see my above post.

[Fanghur Rahl]

3 hours ago, animalia said:

Whoever came up with this idea doesn’t understand how Cultivating things works. Remember when Cultivation mentioned “pruning” Dalinar’s memories. Do you know what pruning is? Is basically removing growth you don’t want. Cultivaion Does BOTH death AND Growth. That’s how cultivation works. For example, you burn dead grass so that’s the ashes can as fertilizer for  new growth. Cultivation doesn’t NEED to be part of a change cycle because that’s how her whole intent works to begin with.

 The only question is would she want to stay as cultivation or Cultivate her intent to something else. If it changes to something else my guess would be Hope, but that assumes it needs to change.

The method by which one enacts the growth and refinement is not relevant to my point; the important thing is that ultimately Cultivation’s end goal is to build up and refine things. The fact that this would often require her to destroy part of it is not really relevant; even Ruin said that sometimes he had to create things in order to ultimately cause even greater destruction.

[DracostarA]

6 hours ago, animalia said:

Whoever came up with this idea doesn’t understand how Cultivating things works. Remember when Cultivation mentioned “pruning” Dalinar’s memories. Do you know what pruning is? Is basically removing growth you don’t want. Cultivaion Does BOTH death AND Growth. That’s how cultivation works. For example, you burn dead grass so that’s the ashes can as fertilizer for  new growth. Cultivation doesn’t NEED to be part of a change cycle because that’s how her whole intent works to begin with.

 The only question is would she want to stay as cultivation or Cultivate her intent to something else. If it changes to something else my guess would be Hope, but that assumes it needs to change.

It doesn't matter HOW it happens, but it seems clear that Cultivation is capable of making something more from building blocks, and developing and advancing things from a basic level. Even if this involves 'pruning' and selective growth, it still works counter to Ruin. As @Fanghur Rahl mentioned, even Ruin was willing to create first before decaying so that he had something to destroy. If a 'pruning' is needed for the best growth, there is no reason Cultivation shouldn't do it and it still fulfils her intent of enabling the progression she wants.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 9/10/2018 at 4:02 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

@DracostarA is right, it’s a term I coined to describe the three Shards whose intents directly relate to change or the lack thereof.

Ruin: regression, decay, destruction, disorder.

Preservation: stasis, stagnation, stability.

Cultivation: progression, growth, transformation, refinement.

And I have a theory that part of the reason Sazed has problems is that the two Shards he holds are counter to his true nature and desires, which is a teacher. What do teachers do? They teach; they help people progress in their thinking; they cultivate people. That’s another reason why I think if he got Cultivation as well, it would effectively complete him. But like I said, that’s most likely just a dream.

That would be a good swerve and a way to really stick it to Rayse. "Yeah you killed me, but now the vessel with 2 shards has 3 and is better able to act".  Dalinar is so clearly on a path to become a Vessel that I suspect he won't be, because it's too obvious. 

I agree those three Shards fit together as parts of the life cycle of matter. 

Cultivation combining with other Shards gets weird results. Like what is Odium + Cultivation? A shard focused on growing hatred, but Odium already kind of does that with the Thrill and such. He sort of riots their bloodlust which creates more deaths and tragedies which creates more resentment, grudges and hatred.  Now the Thrill is red which means investiture of one shard being hijacked or co-opted by another, so maybe the Thrill was of Cultivation and Odium is hijacking it which is why it grows hatred. If Cultivation combined with Odium we'd get Poison Ivy from Batman. Odium, but more people would be killed by plants . 

Same idea with Cultivation + Honor. It's just Honor, but growing Honor (which is already happening on Roshar). We have an example with the Knights Radiant. Making Oaths, but there is a progression to it. As more ideals are said and honored the Radiant grows in power. People are incentivized to increase their honorable conduct, rewarded for growing their honor. 

Cultivation + Honor + Odium: Would be like C + H above, but with Odium being the stick to Cultivation's carrot. Rosharans are rewarded growing their honor, but if they break their oaths they earn god's undying hatred.

Honor + Odium = Justice. In the Rosharan Justice system there are two equally important intents: Honor which sets the code of conduct and Odium which goes old testament on you if you break it. *Law and Order Chung Chung Sound* 

[Ashspren]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Cultivation + Honor + Odium: Would be like C + H above, but with Odium being the stick to Cultivation's carrot. Rosharans are rewarded growing their honor, but if they break their oaths they earn god's undying hatred.

Personally, this is what I believe is going to happen. 

(I don’t know if OB spoilers are allowed here, so... spoiler tag?)

Spoiler

We know that Dalinar has been strongly influenced by all three Shards: he’s bonded the largest existing piece of Honor, was deeply affected by the Thrill, and has been tainted by the Nightwatcher. 

Plus, with the whole “I am Unity” thing, it seems like a sure candidate: a triple Shard called Unity. The only problem is that it seems too obvious, and that’s not Brandon’s style. For all we know, everything could be headed in this direction, and all of a sudden... BOOM. Dalinar dies. Cenn comes back to life and is the new Adonalsium. 

(I’m kidding. Mostly.)

If Dalinar were to hold all three Rosharan Shards, I think it would be more as just a “holder” than a vessel for the Shard’s power and intent. Perhaps the conflicting intents would prevent any of the Shards from acting. For example, almost like the tribune system of Ancient Rome... if two Shards vote “yes” to an idea, and one votes “no,” it is immediately vetoed. Honor and Odium would probably always veto each other, leaving Dalinar with nothing to act with. 

[Fanghur Rahl]

Actually, I think that they are sufficiently compatible with each other that someone holding all three wouldn’t have that much problem acting. There’s no real incompatibility between hatred and honor; just look at Ned Stark, he clearly hated Cersei and the other Lannisters for their actions, but that didn’t stop him from acting honourably toward them (much to his detriment).

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Ashspren said:

(I don’t know if OB spoilers are allowed here, so... spoiler tag?)

Spoilers tags in Cosmere Discussion are "extremely discouraged," according to the helpful Welcome Guide to the Shard.  

(Obvious exception of after the release of a new book.  However, the Oathbringer spoiler period ended on August 14th, so it's treated as just another book)

[Fanghur Rahl]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

That would be a good swerve and a way to really stick it to Rayse. "Yeah you killed me, but now the vessel with 2 shards has 3 and is better able to act".  Dalinar is so clearly on a path to become a Vessel that I suspect he won't be, because it's too obvious. 

I agree those three Shards fit together as parts of the life cycle of matter. 

Cultivation combining with other Shards gets weird results. Like what is Odium + Cultivation? A shard focused on growing hatred, but Odium already kind of does that with the Thrill and such. He sort of riots their bloodlust which creates more deaths and tragedies which creates more resentment, grudges and hatred.  Now the Thrill is red which means investiture of one shard being hijacked or co-opted by another, so maybe the Thrill was of Cultivation and Odium is hijacking it which is why it grows hatred. If Cultivation combined with Odium we'd get Poison Ivy from Batman. Odium, but more people would be killed by plants . 

Same idea with Cultivation + Honor. It's just Honor, but growing Honor (which is already happening on Roshar). We have an example with the Knights Radiant. Making Oaths, but there is a progression to it. As more ideals are said and honored the Radiant grows in power. People are incentivized to increase their honorable conduct, rewarded for growing their honor. 

Cultivation + Honor + Odium: Would be like C + H above, but with Odium being the stick to Cultivation's carrot. Rosharans are rewarded growing their honor, but if they break their oaths they earn god's undying hatred.

Honor + Odium = Justice. In the Rosharan Justice system there are two equally important intents: Honor which sets the code of conduct and Odium which goes old testament on you if you break it. *Law and Order Chung Chung Sound* 

Well Brandon has hinted that Harmony will get involved against Odium in at least some way, so who knows? I have something of a daydream of Harmony travelling to the Rosharan system at the end of Stormlight to confront Odium, only his inner conflict renders him not able to properly defend himself, resulting in Odium almost killing him. But right at the 11th hour, Cultivation shows up, baton passes her Shard to Harmony, and that completeness allows Sazed to turn the tide and ultimately destroy Odium.

Like I said, probably won’t happen, but it would be absolutely epic if it did.

[+Ark1002]

On 9/10/2018 at 2:02 AM, Fanghur Rahl said:

@DracostarA is right, it’s a term I coined to describe the three Shards whose intents directly relate to change or the lack thereof.

Ruin: regression, decay, destruction, disorder.

Preservation: stasis, stagnation, stability.

Cultivation: progression, growth, transformation, refinement.

And I have a theory that part of the reason Sazed has problems is that the two Shards he holds are counter to his true nature and desires, which is a teacher. What do teachers do? They teach; they help people progress in their thinking; they cultivate people. That’s another reason why I think if he got Cultivation as well, it would effectively complete him. But like I said, that’s most likely just a dream.

This is an idea I've had for a while. I think it would effectively create, well, creation. Or nature. I love the idea! I just wish it wasn't so unlikely...

[Fanghur Rahl]

48 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

This is an idea I've had for a while. I think it would effectively create, well, creation. Or nature. I love the idea! I just wish it wasn't so unlikely...

Yeah, it’s hard to think of a Shard name that would adequately sum up Sazed then. The best I’ve come up with is ‘Maintenance’. lol.