Was it a Surge behind that?

[Kasimir]

In the thread discussing Adolin's status as a KR candidate, EMTrevor posted a snippet that I found rather interesting:

"My father," Adolin said with a grunt, sweat from his nose dripping down onto the blade of the knife, "thinks I'm a better man than he is. He strained, and felt Sadeas's grip weaken. "Unfortunately for you, he's wrong."

Sadeas whimpered.

With a surge, Adolin forced the blade up past Sadeas's nose and into the eye socket-piercing the eye like a ripe berry-then rammed it home into the brain.

WoR Chapter 89: The Four Bold emphasis was mine.

For some reason, that sounded familiar to me, and so I flipped through WoR until I found what had set it off for me:

Kaladin caught Shallan’s hand.

Boulders crashed above, smashing against the plateaus, breaking off chunks and tossing them down around him. Wind raged. Water swelled below, rising toward him. He clung to Shallan, but their wet hands started to slip.

And then, in a sudden surge, her grip tightened. With a strength that seemed to belie her smaller form, she heaved. Kaladin shoved with his good leg as water washed over it, and forced himself up the remaining distance to join her in the rocky alcove.

WoR Chapter 74: Striding The Storm, emphasis not mine.

A short while later, Kaladin asks what happened to the sphere Shallan was using for light. She tells him it's gone, that she must have dropped it when she'd grabbed him. There's an indication that there's something that doesn't match up here, Kaladin says, "I didn't--" but we don't find out what he would've said. That he didn't see it?

Later, though, after the Stormfather's appearance, this is what we note:

“The Stormfather,” Kaladin said, tired. He reached around beneath him for something that was suddenly glowing. A sphere, the one Shallan had dropped earlier. It had gone dun, but was now renewed.

My read is that Shallan drew in Stormlight, which is why the sphere she 'dropped' went dun. My question is: is it just an effect of the Stormlight in general? The Surges Shallan has access to are Illumination and Transformation, and I don't see how either would help her pull Kaladin up. I also find the sudden italicisation of 'surge' to be significant and suggestive. It's also possible, however, that the sphere had been used up earlier when she was using Illumination on the chasmfiend.

I suspect that although Sanderson didn't italicise 'surge' in the Adolin case, the answers for Shallan might reflect on Adolin as well. It doesn't seem accidental that the wording in both cases reflects each other, with regard to what Adolin did and what a known Radiant did.

(Also, my first topic! Woohoo! )

Edited April 19, 2014 by Kasimir

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I had noticed that in the Shallan chapter, and then forgot about it when I made that post. Good catch!

 

I definitely think that Shallan had to breathe in the Stormlight in order to pull him up. Stormlight seems to enhance strength as well as healing, balance, endurance, and most other physical traits. 

This makes me even more convinced that it was the manifestation of Adolin's bond in the Sadeas scene. 
 

[Ketek]

The only argument I would against this is that far too many Kholins seem to have become Radiants already. Otherwise, yeah it's plausible. However - we have yet to see Cultivation's magic system, or Voidbinding, so if it is indicative of anything, it may not necessarily be Surgebinding.

[Veil]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the second batch of Radiants come from the Kholins, Bridge Four, and their allies. Kaladin and Shallan (and others, to a lesser extent) are proving that the Nahel bond isn't an automatic death sentence, even though most spren seem to be afraid of a second Recreance. I wouldn't be surprised if the spren are all watching the current Radiants waiting to decide if they're going to send more representatives. (We've already seen Cryptics hanging around Shallan and Elhokar, and the Stormfather watching Kaladin and Dalinar.)

 

So if a lot of spren are looking at the Shattered Plains (well, Urithiru now), that's where they're going to find people to bond with. The closer they are to current Radiants, the more likely they are to be noticed/chosen.

 

(Coincidentally, this is why I'm expecting at least a few members of Bridge Four to become Radiants in their own right--Windrunner or otherwise--rather than all staying squires.)

[Ati]

The only argument I would against this is that far too many Kholins seem to have become Radiants already. Otherwise, yeah it's plausible. However - we have yet to see Cultivation's magic system, or Voidbinding, so if it is indicative of anything, it may not necessarily be Surgebinding.

 

 

Ketek, I had noticed this as well.  By my count, we have Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, Elhokar (he sees spren, at least), possibly Adolin.  So far as I know, this accounts for everyone with Kholin blood.  I can only think of a couple reasons why this would be.  

 

1: These are the people Brandon has been able to get "on screen", making it convenient to use them.  I think Brandon is far too adept a writer for this to be the case.  

2: Spren recognize either bloodlines or tradition as a factor when bonding a surgebinder.  

 

[spoiler]We've seen that two of the three magic systems on Scadrial are hereditary.  If this is a factor on Roshar, it could have interesting implications for the other shardworlds.[/spoiler]

3: It could be the result of some form of deal or arrangement.  Possibly Dalinar's Nightwatcher boon or something similar.  

 

 

 

edit: can someone tell me if that spoiler isn't being hidden, and if so, how to fix it?  First time trying that and not sure if it was done properly...

 

If this turns out to be the case, I think you have to wonder even more about Gavilar...

Edited April 19, 2014 by Ati

[Ketek]

I highly doubt Surgebinding is hereditary. It's based on one actions and the nature of one's soul, rather than sDNA.

[Vessyr]

2: Spren recognize either bloodlines or tradition as a factor when bonding a surgebinder.  [spoiler]

 

Insert a return before the

tag so that it is moved down to the next line. That should fix your tags

 

I agree with EMTrevor that the surge Adolin had was from the 'normal' physical abilities that all KR receive. Strength, agility, reflexes, etc.

 

The Kholins might be attracting spren because of their intentions. The secret societies are trying to make the world go to hell in the hopes that it brings the Heralds back to save it. The Kholins are trying to rally mankind to save themselves. Maybe the spren see that as noble or some other ideal that they like. Without more information there could be any number of reasons we could come up with.

[Moogle]

I highly doubt Surgebinding is hereditary. It's based on one actions and the nature of one's soul, rather than sDNA.

 

We should still expect Surgebinding to run in families, however. Something like 50% of your personality derives from genetics, and Surgebinding parents will raise their children with more of a focus on honor than other parents, or so I would guess. I am not surprised at all that the Kholins are becoming Surgebinders en masse.

 

Also, since spren can choose their bondees, it makes sense for spren to choose to stay within families and those connected to said families, at least for the first few years, so they can protect each other from Nalan and increase their learning rate. If you share a Surge with someone, you can teach them how to use it quite effectively.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

I read the "surge" word as a simple surge of energy, not surgebinding. I do not think Adolin has a spren around him at the time. He struggles throughout both books to control his temper: sometimes he gets the thrill, sometimes he doesn't, sometimes he understands his father, sometines he doesn't know what to think anymore, etc. As Kaladin so nicely put it, he is still a child and being a child has nothing to do with age.

 

Those who have had sprend since childhood have broken down as kids for various reasons. In fact, we could argue that Shallan, Kaladin, Jasnah and Renarin never ever were children. Adolin is just not there yet.

[Seloun]

The problem here is that Adolin has no access to stormlight during the Sadeas scene. In particular, both Sadeas and Adolin are forced specifically to use lanterns as their source of light since stormlight is in such demand to operate the Oathgate. It's also dark, which means if Adolin had somehow invested stormlight it should have been clearly visible:

 

 

Were those voices ahead? Adolin frowned, then continued down the corridor, leaving his lantern behind so it wouldn’t give him away. He was surprised when he recognized one of the speakers down the hallway. Was that Sadeas?

 

 

Sadeas spun, raising his lantern. “Ah, Prince Adolin.” He wore white, which really didn’t help his complexion— the pale color made his ruddy features seem downright bloody by comparison.

 

Those appear to the only sources of light in the scene; Adolin also leaves his lantern behind, so it's actually only Sadeas's lantern that's providing illumination. So the wording is almost certainly just coincidence.

[Kasimir]

Seloun: That does sound pretty bad but I'm not convinced this sinks it. Contextually, we see mention of "torches", "oil lanterns" and "sphere lanterns". I agree it sounds like they need every bit of Stormlight they can get, but the real question would be if they're carrying oil lanterns or sphere lanterns.

Textually, it seems ambiguous:

They had run a few tests. The more people you moved, the more Light was required. It seemed that Stormlight, and not just the gemstones that contained it, would become a valuable resource. Already, they had to ration their gemstones and lanterns to explore the building.

In this case, I'd take that excerpt as a hint they were using sphere lanterns. Although they have oil lanterns, I think the context makes it clear, given the need to ration: the people exploring are using sphere lanterns. In addition, given that the amount of Stormlight invested was small and Adolin was acting in a rage, I wouldn't rule the idea that he'd invested a small amount of Stormlight out of hand. Kaladin didn't notice, either.

Ati, Moogle: If we take Surgebinding to run in families, I'd find it an interesting indicator that we should be looking more closely at Shallan's and Kaladin's family.

EMTrevor: Ah, thank you, I think that clears up my question nicely!

Edited April 21, 2014 by Kasimir

[kaellok]

Kasimir, I can't recall a single other time where "lantern" meant "lantern that had an infused sphere inside of it to produce light."  Seloun's specific quotes say lantern, which leads me to think that it means lantern.  Further, in the quote you provide, there is a clear distinction between lantern and sphere, so one would assume the author would continue to use such a distinction to make it easy to tell exactly what they're using for illumination.

 

Regarding Surgebinding running in a family, I definitely think that it will tend to do so.  Mr T seemed to think that Heleran may have provided training to Shallan (sorry, don't have access to the books right now, or I'd provide specific quote.)  I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we find out that Kaladin's father is bond-worthy, either, in much the same way that the Interlude cobbler was.

[RShara]

I don't think Adolin is a Surgebinder yet--he doesn't seem to have anything in his past that would break him enough to allow the Nahel bond.

However, any reason he can't be a Squire at this point?

[macros]

I think it might be possible that adolin has atleast attracted a spren and we do not know. In the final battle we get this little tid bit.

 

 

"Where was the Thrill that usually propelled him through this kind of butchery? He needed it.

Instead, he felt only nausea." - Words of Radiance

 

This could be a sign that he has attracted a spren which is giving him protection from the thrill.

Edited April 22, 2014 by macros

[Delightful]

Didn't Taravangian say the UnMade which created the Thrill had moved? I presumed that's why Adolin didn't feel it.

(Although admittedly, he was fighting Eshonai who did. But she's non-human and was in stormform which I can easily see as causing a kind of Thrill).

[Numb]

We don't know if Eshonai feels "the thrill" or is just merely more reckless/violent in her current form.

[Delightful]

We don't know if Eshonai feels "the thrill" or is just merely more reckless/violent in her current form.

Adolin identifies her as feeling the thrill, leading her to be reckless and not watch her footing. Your point is still valid though. We don't know for sure, I think. (and I feel like Sazed every time I say 'I think'. Random fact for the day).

[Numb]

To my knowledge Adolin doesn't know that the Thrill isn't a natural state but instead caused by a malicious entity. It would make sense that he would think anyone exhibiting similar symptoms must be under it's effect since he believes that's what what you feel in battle. I imagine Alethi society as a whole has been warped a lot by thinking this is natural.

 

Stormform in general seems all about extremes along with violence/aggressiveness. It makes sense to me that such a listener would appear to be under the influence of the thrill to an Alethi.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Numb

[Kasimir]

Kasimir, I can't recall a single other time where "lantern" meant "lantern that had an infused sphere inside of it to produce light." Seloun's specific quotes say lantern, which leads me to think that it means lantern. Further, in the quote you provide, there is a clear distinction between lantern and sphere, so one would assume the author would continue to use such a distinction to make it easy to tell exactly what they're using for illumination.

Kaellok: Challenge accepted

Note: I'm using a Kindle copy which I've transferred to my computer to read, so the page numbers will be somewhat odd. For the sake of clarity, I've also provided the chapter number.

 

 

The men carried torches and sphere lanterns, so she could see their faces. (WoR, p. 593, Chapter Twenty.

 

Kaladin nodded to them and got crisp salutes in return, then he fetched a sphere lantern from the guard post and filled it with his own spheres. (WoR, p. 633, Chapter Twenty Two.)

 

In one direction, the warcamp glittered with torches and oil lanterns. A market, busy enough that nobody trusted spheres in their lamps. [This indicates we have sphere lanterns and oil lanterns.] (WoR, p. 1074, Chapter 43.)

 

The market was aglow with life, torches and oil lanterns shining from most buildings. Kaladin wasn’t surprised. [Another occurence, specifically, of 'oil lanterns'. I put it to you that Sanderson notes when lanterns are oil lanterns, but not necessarily when they are sphere lanterns. I'll show the latter in a bit--quotes of lanterns which I think we are meant to assume are sphere lanterns.] (WoR, p. 1190, Chapter 46.)

 

Warm, orange light spilled from the tavern. Firelight. No tavern would use spheres for light. Even with locks on the lanterns, the rich glow of spheres might be just a little too tempting for the intoxicated patrons. (WoR, p. 1188, Chapter 46.)

 

Lanterns were placed intermittently, but with dim spheres, perhaps to not distract from the glowing water. (WoR, p. 1762, Chapter 67.)

 

Lights bobbed and approached in the rain, soldiers bearing sphere lanterns. Vathah and his men jogged up, having been left behind, and Bridge Four held them back for the moment. (WoR, p. 2126, Chapter 78.)

 

He strode through the ranks, following bridgemen in stormcoats who led the way with sapphire lanterns. It was still day, but the thick cloud cover rendered everything dim. He used blue light to identify himself. (WoR, p. 2164, Chapter 81.)

 

Light from blue lanterns reflected from Renarin’s wet armor. (WoR, p. 2198, Chapter 81.)

 

A thousand men moved through the building with him, holding lanterns that carried large cut gems—five times bigger than broams, though even some of those were starting to fail, as it had been so long since a highstorm. (WoR, p. 2239, Chapter 83.)

 

Shallan moved to enter, but the bridgemen slipped in front of her to check the building’s safety first, raising sapphire lanterns. (WoR, p. 2251, Chapter 84.)

 

Fallen blue lanterns gave light. The sky had gone as black as night, except when broken by that red lightning. (WoR, p. 2287, Chapter 85.)

 

Kaladin turned and strode toward the assassin. He passed Bridge Four in a tight formation, and the men—at a barked command from Teft—threw something down before Kaladin. Blue lanterns, lit by oversized gems that had lasted the Weeping. (WoR, p. 2294-2295, Chapter 86.)

 

Shallan dashed from lamp to lamp in the circular chamber, infusing each one with Stormlight. She glowed brightly, having drawn the Light from the ardents’ lanterns. (WoR, p. 2309-2310, Chapter 86.)

 

Stormfather. She’d bled them all dry. One of the scholars had dug an oil lantern from her pack, and it paled beside the lamps on the walls.

Shallan ducked out of the opening in the door, looking at the mass of soldiers who gathered there. Thousands upon thousands shuffled in the darkness. Fortunately, some of them carried lanterns. (WoR, p. 2310, Chapter 86.)

And now, for unspecified occurences of 'lantern':

 

Others rolled around her, forming into the shape of a hallway with lanterns on the walls, an intersection ahead. It didn’t look right, of course—the entire thing was made of beads. But it was a fair approximation.

She wasn’t strong enough to form the entire palace. (WoR, p. 29, Prologue.)

 

Dalinar looked to him, raising an eyebrow in the lantern light. (WoR, p. 656, Chapter 23.)

 

Shallan stepped into the chill air. The sun had set, but lanterns hung on the eaves of the manor house. She had rarely seen the gardens at night, and they took on a mysterious cast in the darkness. (WoR, p. 1726, Chapter 65)

In addition:

 

Their spherelight revealed something odd on the wall ahead. Shallan frowned, shaking off her fatigue and stepping up to it. A small folded piece of paper, like a card.

...

In a moment, she had sucked in the Light of their lantern, plunging the corridor into darkness. Light shone from a doorway nearby, however. (WoR, p. 2357-2358, Chapter 88.)

 

Adolin had left a Stormlight lantern for her that was extravagant, considering how few lit gemstones they had—and it showed a small square chamber with a stone bench in the corner. (WoR, p. 2363, Chapter 88.)

The above is not a complete study of the occurence of the word 'lantern' in WoR. Much less does it include occurences in WoK. However, I argue these give us enough context to make these claims:

1. These are the different sources of light: spheres, torches, oil lanterns, sphere lanterns.

2. Sanderson specifically notes the occasions on which oil lanterns appear. I suggest this implies 'sphere lanterns' are the ones taken to be the ubiquitous norm. He does note when sphere lanterns appear as well, but the cases above in which 'lantern' is not marked appear to be 'sphere' lanterns. Given that it's the market areas/taverns which are specifically noted to use oil lantern, I suggest it does not make sense to think the palace (which is where the first two quotes take place) or Shallan's house use oil lanterns. Therefore, the use of 'sphere lanterns' is at times unmarked. See further the last of my quotes in the first section: Shallan only refers to what the men carry as 'lanterns' but it is clear from the context that the disambiguation 'sphere lantern' is intended. (She can't draw from oil lanterns!)

3. The ardent produces an oil lantern. But seeing as what the army--who were the first to arrive at Urithiru were primarily carrying sphere lanterns, I think this gives us ground to assume most of what they would have at hand to explore Urithiru are sphere lanterns.

4. Shallan and her guards, at least, are using sphere lanterns, and there is rationing of both spheres and lanterns going on, "considering how few lit gemstones they had."

I think these at least gives us initial reason to suspect the simple use of 'lantern(s)' in both Seloun's quote and mine refer to sphere lanterns. And once more:

 

It seemed that Stormlight, and not just the gemstones that contained it, would become a valuable resource. Already, they had to ration their gemstones and lanterns to explore the building.

Given the context provided by the first line, I argue that it makes no sense to talk of 'rationing' their lanterns along with their gemstones unless said lanterns ran off Stormlight. Add this to what I suggest are good initial reasons to think the lanterns are sphere lanterns.

Extra food for thought: Adolin is the son of a Highprince, and Sadeas is a Highprince. Think of the Kholins what you will, but I suspect Sadeas would simply commandeer a sphere lantern instead.

Here's what doesn't fit so good with the assumption of sphere lanterns:

-Shallan breathes in Stormlight in Urithiru and uses the glow to light her way. But having seen how KRs using Stormlight look, it seems Adolin would notice if he were glowing.

My tentative response: Adolin is stunned, and depending on how much Stormlight he drew/expended (very little, this would probably just be like Kaladin's initial unconscious attempts.)

-Adolin can tell there's blood on his cuffs. He manages to scrape free his chalk marks, and do many other things which all indicates he had a light source. Either he went back for his lantern, or Sadeas' lantern provided sufficient light. They could still be sphere lanterns but it indicates he hadn't drawn on the Stormlight they contained.

My tentative response: I think there was some ambient light. The text mentions that Adolin "ditched the Blade out a window", which might indicate some low amount of ambient light, enough to see a dark stain on his cuffs.

Thoughts?

Edited April 22, 2014 by Kasimir

[Fifth of Daybreak]

The problem here is that Adolin has no access to stormlight during the Sadeas scene. In particular, both Sadeas and Adolin are forced specifically to use lanterns as their source of light since stormlight is in such demand to operate the Oathgate. It's also dark, which means if Adolin had somehow invested stormlight it should have been clearly visible:

 

 

 

Those appear to the only sources of light in the scene; Adolin also leaves his lantern behind, so it's actually only Sadeas's lantern that's providing illumination. So the wording is almost certainly just coincidence.

 

These are some compelling points that you make, but I don't think that it is conclusive by any means.

 

Kasimir, I can't recall a single other time where "lantern" meant "lantern that had an infused sphere inside of it to produce light."  Seloun's specific quotes say lantern, which leads me to think that it means lantern.  Further, in the quote you provide, there is a clear distinction between lantern and sphere, so one would assume the author would continue to use such a distinction to make it easy to tell exactly what they're using for illumination.

 

First off, I agree, when it's not a regular lantern, Brandon has specified:

 

Adolin had left a Stormlight lantern for her that was extravagant, considering how few lit gemstones they had-...

WoR Chapter 88

(Ninja'd AND refuted by Kasimir, well done!)

 

That does however, create a precedent for Adolin having infused spheres, although, I will also admit that it is very unlikely that he kept infused spheres with him that weren't being used for some purpose or another on him.

However, there were two in that tango. Sadeas. Sadeas who works to undermine Dalinar and Adolin at every turn. Sadeas who only obeys orders when it will serve his purposes. Sadea who made a ruckus about not being able to perform his duties as highprince of information, then resigns when they relent. Given his track record, I find it more than likely that he had some infused spheres on him. Sadeas most definitely would not be handing over any of his infused gemstones to help the Kholin cause. I actually would be more surprised to learn that Sadeas wasn't carrying any infused spheres on him, just because of his personality and actions up to this point. He has done everything he can to undermine them, and he is definitely petty enough to withold spheres simply for the sake of being difficult. 

 

As for surgebinding being hereditary, I think it makes more sense. After all, where did Lighteyes come from? And the tradition that they were meant to lead? As stated earlier, there's plenty of hints that Heleran could have been a surgebinder. Tien also seems very similar to Renarin to me, and would seem like he could be surgebinder material.

Edit: Giving Kasimir credit.

Edited April 22, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Vaspin]

I went back to read this section to see if there was a stronger clue to prove Adolin had absorbed Stormlight. I didn't see it. Other times we saw other surgebinders actively using Stormlight they took a breath and the Stormlight was drawn from a sphere into them. I did, however, catch something very important. After Sadeas finally admits he's out to ruin Dalinar, Adolin snaps! This may be the moment where Adolin does what every other Radiants has done before him, he breaks. Snapping is the precursor to humans being able to Invest. In this world its what allows the spren to form the Nahel bond

[Dahak]

Elhokar (he sees spren, at least),

 

Sylphrena and Elhokar taken together implies those were Odiumspren.

 

Elhokar says they disappear around Kaladin and Sylphrena reports running off Odiumspren. Where as the only Cryptic she mentions having seen is Pattern.

 

So he may have been in line to become a Voidbinder...

 

[kaellok]

Well Kasimir, that's a whole lot of times that they mentioned sphere lanterns that I just didn't notice--wow.  My brain just kept 'seeing' spheres, but not the lantern part.

 

I'm now inclined to think, based on your response to my challenge, that this could very well have been Adolin sucking in some Stormlight.  It's easily possible he only absorbed a little, and used it up in a short period of time--when he was absorbed in the moment and disposing of the evidence.  Not noticing that you're glowing when you just accidentally murdered a highprince doesn't seem like a stretch, to me.

 

So then, the other quibble I would have is that 'surge' wasn't italicized for Adolin, but it was for Shallan.  Maybe to serve as a nod and wink from Brandon to encourage speculation on our part?  That, along with his sly comments that some Radiant orders wouldn't be opposed to what he had done, seem to suggest that.

[Vasteel]

Not noticing that you're glowing when you just accidentally murdered a highprince doesn't seem like a stretch, to me.

 

Considering Kaladin is not only unknowingly using Stormlight for it's indirect uses such as healing, strength and stamina; Kaladin uses enough to lash arrows to the bridge by his head instead of taking them in the face.

I wouldn't say using enough just to increase your strength for a moment and not notice it is a stretch at all.

 

However, it could have been adrenaline? I doubt he was invested at all. It is a possibility though that he "snapped" enough to start attracting some spren's attention.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Vasteel

[Delightful]

I went back to read this section to see if there was a stronger clue to prove Adolin had absorbed Stormlight. I didn't see it. Other times we saw other surgebinders actively using Stormlight they took a breath and the Stormlight was drawn from a sphere into them. I did, however, catch something very important. After Sadeas finally admits he's out to ruin Dalinar, Adolin snaps! This may be the moment where Adolin does what every other Radiants has done before him, he breaks. Snapping is the precursor to humans being able to Invest. In this world its what allows the spren to form the Nahel bond

 

I see this as a snapping control over his temper, which has been building throughout the book. I find it hard to believe "The guy I hate who tried to kill me and my father DEFINITELY wants to kill me and my father so I'll kill him" is equally distressing as Shallan abusive father/broken family or Kaladin's messed-up childhood with Roshone, losing Tien etc.

Maybe Sureblood's death made him snap? (I'm half-joking).