Odium's Knowledge

[Wreith]

According to Sja-anat outside the lighthouse in Shadesmar, Odium thinks Shallan is an Elsecaller.
I see three possibilities for this.

1. He's made an assumption that Shallan entered Shadesmar by her own means rather than the Oathgate malfunction. The rest of Sja-anat's message would seem to make this unlikely.

2. He has a mediocre spy inside Urithiru where Shallan has been publicly names an Elsecaller to hide her deception abilities.

3. He's aware of Jasnah's earlier foray into Shadesmar and thinks that's who he's dealing with here.

 

The levels of his knowledge through Oathbringer seem inconsistent to me. Sometimes he seems to know things he shouldn't (Taravangian unlocking the Urithiru Oathgate?) and other times he seems oddly ignorant (as above).
I'm curious to hear people's thoughts, both on Odium's awareness of events in general and the implications of his belief of Shallan's order in particular.

[kaellok]

Sja-anat is an unreliable source.  So, they could be telling the truth to Shallan--which would make me assume that Sja-anat had lied or deceived Odium about Shallan's nature.  Or Sja-anat is lying to Shallan.  When I first read that section, I felt certain that Sja-anat was actively involved in the deceit one way or the other.  I still feel that way, even if I have changed my mind which way it goes a few dozen times since then.

Odium's knowledge can only be as good as his sources of information are.  Mr T is actively hunting and using the Unmade in order to gain information; it seems highly likely that Odium would be able to be aware of this, and thus know to keep a close watch on him.  It's also possible that Odium can See the Investiture of people, and thus know that there is at least one Herald constantly around Mr T, and so the area is worth watching--until it is discovered that Mr T is worth paying significant attention to individually.  This would inevitably lead to knowing everything about the Diagram and Mr T.

Foresight is said to be of Odium, and it certainly seems likely that Odium is quite good at it.  However, Odium would still need to know where and how to look; so if his sources are bad or unreliable, he will not necessarily know to do so.  That is represented by the very disconnect between what he knows and what he doesn't that you highlight.

[StanLemon]

I just reread Oathbringer and as far as Odium knowing about Taravangian that was because Taravangian specifically sent a message to Odium (probably through one of the Fuzed). Taking that into account I think Odium is lacking a lot of information. He showed surprise about the existence of the diagram and it wasn't until he looked at it that he expanded on it. So I'm not all that surprised that he didn't know that Shallan was a Lightweaver. My personal guess is he overfocuses on certain aspects and his arrogance makes him ignore important information.

[Calderis]

Odium doesn't seem to know half as much as he thinks he does, he's just got a great PR set-up. 

His futuresight is getting smashed by Cultivation's, and if I'm right about the Diagram that will continue. 

He's cock, and believes that everything is under his control. Now that Thaylen City proved him wrong I expect things to get interesting. 

I'm fully of the opinion that up until the end of OB, Odium was paying minimal attention because he believed he'd already won. That disillusionment has been soundly shattered. 

[goody153]

I agree with Calderis that Odium probably suffers the classic Sith arrogance. He probably thought it was checkmate. Turns out it was not.

Anyways i have an impression that Odium/Cultivation don't actually see everything that is happening way Ruin/Preservation sees everything in Scadrial. Like Ruin/Preservation literally created Scadrial and everything in it while Honor/Cultivation/Odium merely settled on the Rosharian system. 

It must be possible for Ruin/Preservation to literally know everything that is happening simply because their essence is literally everywhere in Scadrial compared to Odium/Cultivation. 

[dvoraen]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Odium doesn't seem to know half as much as he thinks he does, he's just got a great PR set-up. 

His futuresight is getting smashed by Cultivation's, and if I'm right about the Diagram that will continue. 

He's cock, and believes that everything is under his control. Now that Thaylen City proved him wrong I expect things to get interesting. 

I'm fully of the opinion that up until the end of OB, Odium was paying minimal attention because he believed he'd already won. That disillusionment has been soundly shattered. 

And more, now that the Diagram effectively bound Odium from directly interfering with Dalinar.  I'm curious to see how much this will matter, and whether Dalinar will find out about it to take advantage of this fact.

[Willshaping Crasher]

11 hours ago, Wreith said:

Odium thinks Shallan is an Elsecaller.

I seem to remember her putting this out as her Radiant order although I can't find the passage right now.  This suggests that Odium is getting his information through spies.  I will have to agree with Calderis here.  He is relying on information not gathered through futuresight in this case and his spy network is rudimentary at best.  Also interesting that the Ghostbloods seem far superior to him in gathering correct information.  It should get very interesting in terms of information gathering.

[Wreith]

12 hours ago, kaellok said:

When I first read that section, I felt certain that Sja-anat was actively involved in the deceit one way or the other

The diagram referring to a traitorous Unmade, Glys, and the multiple interactions with Shallan put me strongly in the camp of Sja-anat telling the truth.
She deceived Odium claiming that something unknown happened and the travelers were likely transported far from the gate, but the comment about Shallan being an Elsecaller reads entirely separately.

 

12 hours ago, kaellok said:

Odium's knowledge can only be as good as his sources of information are.  Mr T is actively hunting and using the Unmade in order to gain information; it seems highly likely that Odium would be able to be aware of this, and thus know to keep a close watch on him.  It's also possible that Odium can See the Investiture of people, and thus know that there is at least one Herald constantly around Mr T, and so the area is worth watching--until it is discovered that Mr T is worth paying significant attention to individually.  This would inevitably lead to knowing everything about the Diagram and Mr T

Either Odium is a much better actor than I give him credit for - and indeed than we've seen him be given his penchant for and claims of straight dealing - or the entire encounter with Taravangian must lead me to believe that Odium has paid a minimum of attention to him and the Diagram until this point.

 

11 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Taravangian specifically sent a message to Odium

This is true, but I'm pretty sure that started long before the opening of the Oathgate. That'll be a hard reference to find though (even if I didn't imagine it; guess I'll have to read it all again ) 

 

Skipping Calderis because I agree with him 90% of the time and this is no exception.

goody153. Good points about Odium's involvement in the planet. This is another thing I find odd about Odium. I would have thought after 4000+ years, he'd have an epic, spren observation network. I'm curious what prevented him from at least allowing Sja-anat to corrupt spren with wild abandon. Unless her power further binds Odium to the system.

 

6 hours ago, dvoraen said:

And more, now that the Diagram effectively bound Odium from directly interfering with Dalinar.  I'm curious to see how much this will matter, and whether Dalinar will find out about it to take advantage of this fact.

There is no binding. They made a deal that Taravangian would act on Odium's behalf in order to avoid the contest of champions. There's nothing stopping Odium from continuing to harass Dalinar other than wanting to avoid any personal injury.

 

6 hours ago, Willshaping Crasher said:

I seem to remember her putting this out as her Radiant order

I feel like you stopped reading my OP at the phrase you quoted...

[RShara]

On 9/5/2018 at 2:02 PM, Wreith said:

According to Sja-anat outside the lighthouse in Shadesmar, Odium thinks Shallan is an Elsecaller.
I see three possibilities for this.

1. He's made an assumption that Shallan entered Shadesmar by her own means rather than the Oathgate malfunction. The rest of Sja-anat's message would seem to make this unlikely.

2. He has a mediocre spy inside Urithiru where Shallan has been publicly names an Elsecaller to hide her deception abilities.

3. He's aware of Jasnah's earlier foray into Shadesmar and thinks that's who he's dealing with here.

 

The levels of his knowledge through Oathbringer seem inconsistent to me. Sometimes he seems to know things he shouldn't (Taravangian unlocking the Urithiru Oathgate?) and other times he seems oddly ignorant (as above).
I'm curious to hear people's thoughts, both on Odium's awareness of events in general and the implications of his belief of Shallan's order in particular.

I think it's the second option.

[Willshaping Crasher]

16 hours ago, Wreith said:

I feel like you stopped reading my OP at the phrase you quoted...

...Clearly, I need an editor.

"I would have to go with your second possibility.  Like you, I seem to remember her putting this out as her Radiant order although I can't find the passage right now.  This suggests that Odium is getting his information through spies.  I will have to agree with Calderis here.  He is relying on information not gathered through futuresight in this case and his spy network is rudimentary at best.  Also interesting that the Ghostbloods seem far superior to him in gathering correct information.  It should get very interesting in terms of information gathering."

Apologies.

[dvoraen]

52 minutes ago, RShara said:

I think it's the second option.

Ditto, and I'll wager that spy's name was Meridas Amaram.

[Nymeros]

I'm really not sure why I would believe that Odium is just guessing when the author made it a point to have Shallan spreading that to intentionally throw people off.

As a note, Odium is on another planet in the system I doubt he can witness as much as Honor could for example.