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MountainKing

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Brandon had said that you can spike animals, so what if you spiked out the wolifiness of a wolf and give it to a human, say its strength, senses, and instincts. You would probably also have to create a new spike of human intelligence to balance out the wolf instincts. But also can you do it in reverse can you spike human intelligence and humanness into a wolf, and what happens to the wolf's mind if you remove the spikes?

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The former example is likely how the 'Chimaeras' in Shadows of Self were created, except with nothing on the 'human trait' side balancing things out. For the other way around, you probably wouldn't get a sapient wolf though you'd get one that's more intelligent as long as the spikes are in. Brandon has said that uplift requires a lot of Investiture and there's not a lot of Investiture in hemalurgic spikes.

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I don't see those as being terribly different things. If you can't Forge something to sapience (and the same WoB puts soulstamps on the 'low' end of Invested-ness along with hemalurgic spikes) I don't think you can spike sapience into something that isn't already sapient. The kandra for example aren't uplifted by their spikes, they're just short-circuiting a Cognitive block that was put in place. We've even seen what happens when TenSoon got extra blessings and the effect was an enhancement but he wasn't suddenly twice as strong because he'd gotten a Blessing of Potency. So even setting aside that a hemalurgic spike doesn't meet Brandon's requirement for a lot of Investiture, I don't think that a spike containing 'intelligence' would be enough to drive a non-sapient animal to sapience because it wouldn't transfer enough intelligence regardless.

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52 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I don't think that a spike containing 'intelligence' would be enough to drive a non-sapient animal to sapience because it wouldn't transfer enough intelligence regardless.

I'm not the pro on Hemalurgy, but couldn't you spike yourself with multiple 'intelligence' spikes?

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You could, but a kandra blessing is already two spikes and as mentioned the net effect of extra spikes for TenSoon wasn't a huge jump. So I'm falling back on Brandon's statement that uplift is hard and so the result of H-Copper would result in a smarter wolf but not a sapient one.

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How would you spike the "wolfiness" out of a wolf, anyway? F-Aluminum stores Identity, so maybe Hemalurgic Aluminum could steal the wolf's "Identity-as-Wolf" and graft it onto the recipient? You could argue that it might just work with the "basic" metals (spiking a wolf with iron and stealing its strength, etc), but I have a hunch that animal Spiritwebs are so different from that of humans or sentient beings in general that I think you'd need a special spike for it.

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On 2.8.2018 at 4:25 AM, MountainKing said:

Brandon had said that you can spike animals, so what if you spiked out the wolifiness of a wolf and give it to a human, say its strength, senses, and instincts. You would probably also have to create a new spike of human intelligence to balance out the wolf instincts. But also can you do it in reverse can you spike human intelligence and humanness into a wolf, and what happens to the wolf's mind if you remove the spikes?

Wait. The way i understood it, you may give animals charged spikes to give them abilities but I don't think you can actually create spikes from them. I think for hemalurgy to work you don't just need a soul. I think in HoA it was mentioned that hemalurgy takes the extra bit of preservations  power that humans have to gain sentience or sapience.

Scadrians already butcher a hufe amount of animals. they would just need to spike them befire to supply everybody with spikes.I doubt Sanderson intended that

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Considering the Chimaeras, at least in my opinion, are built from animal traits, I believe that it's definitely possible. 

I also don't think spikes from. Animals are anything that someone would actually want. 

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Normal hemalurgic spikes don't steal a piece of Preservation, they steal the innate investiture (the part of the spiritweb) that grants the ability. It's blessings that steal a piece of Preservation. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

The Blessings and the workings of Hemalurgy gave me some trouble as I designed the second and third books of this series. On one hand, I liked the way Hemalurgy worked by stealing powers from Allomancers or Feruchemists and giving them to other people. However, if I was going to limit myself to sixteen metals and be able to steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, that meant I needed a mechanism to determine which power got stolen. If, for instance, you drove a pewter spike into a person who was both an Allomancer and a Feruchemist, then how would that spike know which power to suck out and grant to the one who would gain it?

As I was toying with how this would work, I realized that I needed to work the kandra and the koloss into this as well. Only, it was ridiculous to assume that the Lord Ruler would kill Allomancers to make koloss. There weren't enough Allomancers, for one thing—plus it would be foolish to lose the power of an Allomancer to gain an inferior tool in a koloss.

So that meant koloss had to be made out of regular people, not Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly I had another set of abilities that Hemalurgy had to be able to steal—the basic pieces of Preservation inside the souls of all men.

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

source

 

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2 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:

Wait. The way i understood it, you may give animals charged spikes to give them abilities but I don't think you can actually create spikes from them. I think for hemalurgy to work you don't just need a soul. I think in HoA it was mentioned that hemalurgy takes the extra bit of preservations  power that humans have to gain sentience or sapience.

The epigraphs are written from an in-universe perspective, by someone who admittedy is not yet very aware of the big picture. He has discovered the name 'Adonalsium' for example but doesn't really know anything else. His understanding of hemalurgy off Scadrial is thus limited at that point. We know from Brandon that you can use hemalurgy to steal things from non-Scadrians, who have no connection to Preservation at all. For example, you can steal Elantrian-ness in theory using one spike for the power and another for Connection to the right land. You can spike ownership of a dead Shardblade or steal things from spren. You could steal an Aviar (or their power) with some work.

Here's Brandon being as explicit as can be:

Quote

Questioner

I was wondering if a Hemalurgic spike would take surges, or if it could take a spren bond? Would it interact at all for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics. I designed it specifically in writing Mistborn for future use. Because some of the magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire cosmere. Its invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire cosmere.

source

So yes, if you can spike an Aviar you can totally spike things out of other animals.

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Well I certainly hope we can spike things from animals! Otherwise my hemalurgic rat farm idea to mass produce spikes from lerasium powered rats wouldn't work. What a shame.

Edited by The Gecko
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On 8/8/2018 at 6:33 PM, Calderis said:

Considering the Chimaeras, at least in my opinion, are built from animal traits, I believe that it's definitely possible. 

I also don't think spikes from. Animals are anything that someone would actually want. 

Spike off a Larkin's ability to drain Investiture?

Other than that, Sensory upgrades are the most common Ive seen before (Runelords by David Farland explored that a lot), so increased Hearing or Smell, or alternative wavelength ranges on Sight to see UV or IR.

 

Edited by Quantus
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Right, but the thing with Hemalurgy is the massive COST. Especially when you use spikes to drain innate Investiture. Hemalurgy always damages and warps the recipient; it's not something to be taken lightly or treated like a free power-up. Think of how messed-up the koloss are, having the bits and pieces of four human souls grafted onto them. And that's with purely human Spiritwebs. Can you imagine the kind of horrible side-effects you'd get by grafting shreds of animal Spiritwebs onto yourself? I don't care how cool it would be to have a viper's ability to sense heat, I don't want bits of snake grafted onto my soul.

Yes, I may be an unlicensed Hemalurgist, but I'm not an unethical one. I have standards.

Edited by Unlicensed Hemalurgist
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