Tempus Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Hello again everyone. I have another topic that is yielding a few headaches for me, and that's the topic of - "What's in a realm?". Allow me to explain, but before I do you should go read the two quotes at the top of Realmatic Theory. Alright, fellows, so we have three realms. One is like our world, nice and filled with matter and forces and energy and things. One is a world full of glass beads that think they are sticks, giant solid oceans, Platonic Forms, and all around thinky thoughts. The last is some kind of strange glowy place with ghosts and webs and people spiders and energy and connecty bits. That's all stuff we kind of know. Now that the formal definitions are out of the way, let's get into the meat of things. We know very little about the spiritual realm, but a little bit about the cognitive realm. So that's where I'm going to be focusing. There are a few curious qualities about matter in the cognitive realm. • First is, all known solid matter in the cognitive realm represents the cognitive aspect of an object. So basically, ideas == matter. • Second - giving an idea investiture in the cognitive realm causes nearby matter to emulate the form of the object you invested. See the Jasnah prologue for details. • Thirdly, larger or older things tend to have larger material representations in the cognitive realm, as per the Palace or the Ocean. • Our fourth point of interest is that the spren live in the cognitive realm, but we have never seen any there (that we are aware of). So, what I want to know is - if spren are cognitive creatures come to the physical world, and humans are physical creatures that go to the cognitive world, and matter nature, density and size in the cognitive world all seem to be different from the physical and dependent on the cognitive aspect... How exactly do people transfer their bodies into the Cognitive Realm? It seems like it shouldn't be able to support things like bodies in the same way that the physical does. Spren, in the physical realm, also seem to have some issue with this, as noted by their strange invisibility, ability to shift form at will, their quantum nature related to intent as observed by the scholars, their inability to properly transfer with memories, and other such things. How exactly do spren become physical? How do human bodies and the things attached to them become cognitive? And why is it that they do not seem to change their form in the cognitive realm when everything else seems to have an aspect? Bonus question: Same thing, spiritual realm, GHOSTS. Discuss, because I'm rather stumped. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 You should put a label somewhere, remind people we are in the Cosmere Theories subforum and we should all be mindful of spoilers. This being said, we have seen spren in Shadesmar - Words of Radiance has a scene where a character sees exhaustionspren, which look like large birds; said character knows they are exhaustionspren because there is a spren with them, informing them. How's that for a spoiler-free hint, huh? Now, let's tackle the problem with the transference of physical bodies into the cognitive realm. The reason spren look and behave the way they do in the physical realm is because they: don't have a physical aspect to anchor to in the first place probably have very little Investiture (compared to humans), which they can't just convert into a physical form. Since spren are Investiture, any conversion from cognitive matter to physical one literally makes them less than what they are in the cognitive realm; which means they probably won't (can't) spend too much of themselves in creating their physical aspects are living ideas, and ideas are pretty mutable... well, ideas. Windspren take the form of objects we associate with wind; creationspren assume the forms of things that have been created (recently?), and so on With this in mind, it looks clear to me why spren need to both much of themselves when they come to the physical realm, and why they behave the way we've seen them behave. Humans, now... first, they need a spren to open the way to Shadesmar, either through a Nahel bond, or from a fabrial. Why humans get to keep their bodies? I imagine because humans have a much more stable cognitive (and spiritual, for that matter) aspect than spren. We have physical bodies that serve as a very good anchor - a reminder - of who we are. Other people's opinions don't affect us as much as they do spren - which, being embodiment of ideas, are literally only affected by opinions, and the opinions of a lot of people at that (e.g. a lot more people think about the idea of fire than the idea of, well, me). So not only do we have a much better anchor, we are also have a much more stable (at any one time, at least) cognitive aspect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) This is a good question, and I feel that Argent has provided quite a suitable answer based on what we already know. I would just like to interject a point or two that I feel could be of use to a discussion of this nature, as opposed to a direct answer to your question (which I feel has been achieved). So, my main point is going to be on the nature of an object's 'Soul', which is collected in the Cognitive Realm as a sense of its Identity (some hints at Allomancy here, I feel, though I won't divulge). So, since we know that a thing in the Cognitive Realm can be directly affected by the length of time, or the duration, during which it has considered itself to be of a certain Identity. For example, and as a general guide, this response will contain potentially major Words of Radiance and The Way of Kings spoilers, the ship that Jasnah and Shallan take from Kharbranth. When it is asked to take the form of water, it protests, on the nature of its service and time as a ship. It considers itself to be a ship, not a compilation of individual planks. The parts of the ship have begun to collect their Identity together to form a single, stronger, Cognitive presence. Interestingly enough, the ship takes into consideration the pride to serve, and the love with which it is treated by the humans aboard the ship. Thus I think it is proper to say that an objects Cognitive presence varies in strength depending on ideas. The idea of the planks as a single cohesive unit is brought about because people see it this way and believe this. The belief of humans strengthens the idea. Thus the Cognitive presence is strongly affected by the perception of other Cognitive presences. Secondly, the Ideal of pride or love strengthens its presence, and is again strengthened by the humans that perceive and determine this emotion, in the exact same way as the Cognitive presences of spren are strengthened by the prevalence of the idea they represent. In accordance with Argent's point, this would allow the spren more of itself, more Investiture, to spend on a presence in the Physical Realm. Thus I hypothesise that the way a spren appears in the Physical Realm is that it has sufficient anchoring and presence to do so. It has gathered enough Investiture to do so. Its presence in the Cognitive Realm has a 'pushing' effect on the Physical Realm, and a part of it pervades and can be seen. When an idea is expressed nearby, spren of that idea's type that are around (since the Cognitive Realm appears to pervade the Physical) are bolstered and thus can seem to appear nearby (they may be attracted by the idea in the Cognitive Realm, and then when the idea strengthens their coherence/presence they can be seen Physically). This is slightly off topic, but in this way, the Ideals and Words expressed strengthen the spren associated with the Nahel bond, because their idea is expressed supremely, and they gain memory and coherence as a result (and presumably Physical stability). In this way, I move onto humans entering Shadesmar. Humans entering Shadesmar have a strong Physical presence, which they can expend in the opposite way to spren to gain some form of presence in Shadesmar. They are also linked to spren, who share Investiture with them that they can use to strengthen their own Cognitive presence. Similarly to Argent, but by different means (and I hope expressing some interesting thoughts in the process), I arrive at the conclusion that all objects have 'presences' that can be split between the Realms. If you are more in the Cognitive, you are less in the Physical and vice versa. Presumably more Investiture leads to a greater presence, and the more strongly your associative Idea is expressed the more Invested you might be (for spren, at least) and the more you have to expend. One last thought: perhaps if a spren utilised all of their presence to appear Physically, would they die because they are singularly Cognitive entities? And if a human lost their Physical grounding, would they lose themselves, or would the strength of their Cognitive presence or Investiture be enough for them to regain a Physical presence (Elsecall...?). Odium's_Shard PS: I'm back, it's been a long while, please forgive any mistakes and if Word of Brandon directly contradicts points I have made, please inform me. TL:DR Ramblings off the back of Argent's response, potentially uninteresting to those without a large amount of patience. Edited March 28, 2014 by Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Bonus question: Same thing, spiritual realm, GHOSTS. Well we have seen two-ish examples of ghosts in the cosmere, a phenomenon known as a "cognitive shadow". This is what Kelsier is after his death, he sticks around in the Cognitive instead of "passing on". Shades, from Threnody, are also cognitive shadows. Here is a WoB sort of related to this: Q: At the end of the trilogy Sazed communicates with Kelsier so there is something going on with an afterlife. Is it uniform across the cosmere? B: What is happening there is not actually technically an afterlife, well it kind of is, it is what we call a cognitive shadow its when your spirit is not moving on yet. So there is a Beyond but there is a-- basically it is what we would call in our world a ghost, and there are actually magic systems based around that. Actually the story I have coming out in George R.R. Martin’s next anthology is a ghost story involving this same--yes it is cosmere based. Yes, that would be consistent, they don’t all have the same mythology regarding it. But it would be consistent, what happened with Kelsier could have happened on any of the planets (source) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think I should mention that exautionspren don't actually look like birds, more like huge blurry forms that circle like vultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 This is just a bit of fun, but could a 'Cognitive shadow' on Roshar form a Nahel bond if it was sufficiently Invested and attracted to the emulated ideal of a specific human, and thus avoid 'passing on' altogether (and becoming some pseudo-sentient spren?). In fact, since spren have memories and sentience, who is to say they weren't all once people, or people all were once spren breathed into Physical being. Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I'm big on the idea of balance, Odium's Shard, and we know from the two quotes on realmatic theory that presence in the cognitive world is affected by how you see yourself and how others see you, so I think your points are valid. So, Spren (we have seen one, that stupid stick eclipsed the moment! Thanks Argent) are cognitive entities, we all agree on that. The funny thing is, when spren enter the 'Physical Realm', they don't get a material presence. Instead, they remain cognitive entities. Only certain people can see them, and who sees them can be shared (like an idea). They are not solid, they can change the perception or their form at will, to an extent, but tend to prefer a single perception. In fact, they act more similar to mass hallucinations than to any other real world effect we know of. So I'm getting some better ideas here of what's going on, and how it fits into different things, but there are a few questions I'd like to ask. Thar be minor spoilers: Shallan and Jasnah can both access the cognitive realm. The related surges seem to be the surge of transportation, and the surge of transformation. Elsecallers are said to be the closest to Shadesmar - the question I want to get clarified first is, which surges allow what privileges to access the Cognitive Realm? As far as I can recall, only the wielders of the surge of transportation and the surge of transformation can access the cognitive realm in the cosmere directly. Presuming they act as their name suggests, I would suspect that the surge of transformation is required to transform yourself into primarily a cognitive presence, and the surge of transportation is required to transport yourself from the physical realm to the cognitive one. This would imply that the Lightweavers can see Shadesmar, and communicate, but not travel with it, that the Willshapers can travel with it, but not see it, and that only the Elsecallers can travel within the cognitive realm and see it. Is this congruent with what we know? If not, why not? Edit: Odium's Shard - it has been established that a bond could potentially be formed with any splinter, and Warbreaker suggests that any sufficient amount of investiture is equivalent to a splinter. The bond would not necessarily function the same as a bond with Spren (like for example, a Seon would not be able to automatically form a shardblade), but it is confirmed by both logic and WoB that any splinter could form a bond that would act similar to the Nahel Bond. So anything with sufficient investiture could be bonded. Edited March 28, 2014 by Tempus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Spren do have a physical presence, let's not discard this - windspren are notorious for playing tricks on people (though that could be just them convincing their fellow bondspren or something to play along). Syl in particular carries and entire leaf! And there are other reports of bigger spren interacting with the physical world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Hmm, the only thing I could recall when talking about spren interacting with the physical world was how Cusciethticth (Sometimes, these names!) makes a big splash in the ocean but the splash isn't real. Do you have more examples of concrete knowledge of spren affecting physical things other than Syl and the Leaf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Ok, thanks for the heads up, Tempus! That's a cool idea (and is very versatile in terms of inter-planetary actions). Perhaps the perception that spren must operate on a Physical level because one can see them (thus the brain tends towards imagining them having Physical properties) lend them abilities in that regard? Or perhaps Syl, because of her relation to Investing someone with the Surge of Pressure/Gravity (?) has a better ability to do this. In all honesty I think its more like that they aren't Cognitive concepts seen in the Physical realm, but (less) Cognitive beings lent partial Physicality by a spreading of their Investiture between Realms. Thus the matter that composes them could just be atoms the move along like a kind of 'ripple' from the pressure imposed from the pervasive Cognitive Realm. As for the 'only certain people see them', maybe this is only people who are expressing their ideal, noticing their ideal, or with whom they have shared something on a Cognitive level. Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PorridgeBrick he/him Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 This is just a bit of fun, but could a 'Cognitive shadow' on Roshar form a Nahel bond if it was sufficiently Invested and attracted to the emulated ideal of a specific human, and thus avoid 'passing on' altogether (and becoming some pseudo-sentient spren?). In fact, since spren have memories and sentience, who is to say they weren't all once people, or people all were once spren breathed into Physical being. Odium's_Shard Well, we know from WoB that Seons would become something similar to a Nahel bond if they moved to Roshar, and also that if given an increased connection to the physical they could become a Shardblade. We also know now that both Seons and Cognitive shadows become shades on Threnody, so if they share one similarity, they may share the other. This could open up some interesting possibilities. Imagine Kelsier bonded to Kaladin. They'd be the ultimate Lighteye killing duo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I am sure there was a remark somewhere about the bigger, more powerful spren being able to effect the world in small ways. I'll see if I can find it easily, but if not, I am okay dropping this point, it's not too important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 You're a bit mixed up there, Porridge Brick. Well, we know from WoB that Seons would become something similar to a Nahel bond if they moved to Roshar, and also that if given an increased connection to the physical they could become a Shardblade. That is roughly correct. We also know now that both Seons and Cognitive shadows become shades on Threnody, so if they share one similarity, they may share the other. The sharing part is the issue. It's not cognition that allows bonding, it's investiture. Bonding involves an invested being bonding into a tear in a spiritweb in the spiritual realm. This could open up some interesting possibilities. Imagine Kelsier bonded to Kaladin. They'd be the ultimate Lighteye killing duo. This is still possible - give Kelsier a splinter, or about 3-5k breaths, or any other equivalent amount of persistent investiture, and BAM. Kelsadin, with the surges of Allomancy and Arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 I've always wondered if Brandon has ever planned some inter-planetary action, or has some really cool potential combinations to explore (in the same way he did with the whole Metallic Arts triangle, compounding, etc). I am certain that Taravangian at one point implied that the large spren around the world were impacting it in very meaningful ways (such as bringing on the death rattles), and I can only surmise that even if these are not direct Physical influences (perhaps at a Cognitive level) then the spren at least have presence and effect on all three Realms. Odium's_Shard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Fairly spoilery but I feel on point: WoR spoiler: in WoR the Stormfather literally seems to control the highstorms, and is able to bring one "early" in the middle of the weeping. As to who can see them, it is going to have to do with some level of investiture or "opening" of the mind to the cognitive, since Rock can seemingly see all spren, and Kaladin can notice most, cf rotspren in the chasm which Sigzil can't see, but the other 2 can. And Rock talks about bathing/swimming in that lake which a god (probably hoid) emerged from, which indicates a likely shardpool in that lake, brimming with investiture. My first reference is a pretty big interaction with the physical world for a spren I'd say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 Syl can trip people, stick bowls to hands, carry leaves; Pattern can open locks and vibrate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted March 31, 2014 Report Share Posted March 31, 2014 I can't believe I couldn't think of Pattern's... roguish skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted April 1, 2014 Report Share Posted April 1, 2014 This implies a definite Physical aspect. But I would say my point about spending presence in the Cognitive to gain it in the Physical would still hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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