Could the Weeper be a surgebinder

[Elena she/her]

Apologies if this has been discussed already. That said:

 

Liss was the most skilled assassin Jasnah knew. [...] For one thing, nobody knew that the Weeper was a woman.

So, Liss is not only 'the most skilled assassin' Jasnah knows (which is already saying a lot, as she is well acquainted with many assassins) but also her gender is a closely-guarded secret, which means that not only has she never been captured, but that she has not even come close. No one has ever seen her during a hit, there are no former partners-in-crime who might expose her. (*)

This tells us that the Weeper most likely works alone, and always does an upstanding job.

Now, this might be a prof of enhanced abilities - agility, reflexes, stealth - but it's nothing particularly out of the ordinary, by itself.

 

But let's consider this.

 

It was said the Weeper gouged the eyes out to proclaim indifference to whether her victims were lighteyed or dark. The truth was that the action hid a second secret—Liss didn’t want anyone to know that the way she killed left corpses with burned-out sockets.

 

 

So, Liss did somehow get her hands on a Shardblade. We do know that the Blades are closely guarded and their history tracked through the owners. (**) And yet Liss has one. Where did she get it? Did she kill a Shardbearer for it? It seems unlikely, as women are physically less strong than men, especially in armor. She could have taken it from one of her first kills (or honeytrapped a guy, why not?) but a missing Blade would raise notice, especially if a few months later random bodies start showing up with their eyes gouged out. 

Unless she doesn't really have a Blade, but rather a bonded spren/ Honorblade

 

We have already seen Lift using her surgebinding abilities for personal, not completely lawful, reasons.. why couldn't Liss be the same?

 

(Of course, I have no idea whatsoever about a) the hypotetical order how she could conciliate the Ideal with her being an assassin and c) the kind of surges she might have access to, but if anyone wants to add a guess, by all means go ahead.)

 

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(*) I'll also hazard a guess that she was born darkeyed, before getting her hands on the Blade, because if she were somehow tied to a noble family... well, a brigthlady unmarried with no apparent social ties and sources of weath would raise rumors; which would reach Jasnah somehow. Yet she has no idea where Liss is from. 

 

(**) I know that there are less Blades than Plates around and I do have a pet theory that someone, most likely the Shins, has been hoarding them, but a secret stash of Blades somewhere seems like a unnecessarily complicated explanation, not to mention itself based on a theory which is nowhere close to being proven,

[GreyPilgrim he/him]

I could definitely buy that Liss is a Surgebinder. Thus far, the only Shardblades we've seen of which the history was not well-recorded is that of Shallan, Kaladin, and Helaran/Amaram (I can't at present remember if we know how Helaran got his, but if we don't I believe it was the Ghostbloods somehow. In other words, Surgebinders. The evidence, of Liss being a woman and wanting to hide her possession seem to scream to me "Surgebinder!" I will definitely keep this in mind. Now only to find out what eventually happened to her...

[Chlehrma]

There are also a lot of plates and blades unaccounted for in the histories.

[Khyrindor he/him]

She might not have Oaths. She could have an Honorblade... Maybe the lightweaver one? It would explain why no one knows she's a woman, she makes herself a man.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Khyrindor

[Kobold King he/him]

I like this theory. The Weeper was an interesting concept, and I'd be disappointed if we never see more of her. I'm not sure which order of the KR she might be connected with, though.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Now, I wonder what order took her?

[Khyrindor he/him]

Guys... Honorblade!

[Sylveris he/him]

The only problem with Honorblade is that we know where they all are suppose to be,

Kaladin got one, Nalan got one, and then either Nalan or Szeth (or maybe both, can't remember right now) say that the other eight are in Shinovar.

 

beside that, really liked this theory! So I'm pretty sure that if she is a surgebinder, its one of the middle orders, since the more Honor-oriented ones seem to be rather disapproving of assassination, at least as a job.

 

Edit: yea, forgot Taln's blade, which leaves the stone shamanate with seven. But since the prologue is before Taln's return, my argument is still valid.

Edited March 27, 2014 by athas65

[ThreeArmedHerdazian he/him]

The only problem with Honorblade is that we know where they all are suppose to be,

Kaladin got one, Nalan got one, and then either Nalan or Szeth (or maybe both, can't remember right now) say that the other eight are in Shinovar.

 

beside that, really liked this theory! So I'm pretty sure that if she is a surgebinder, its one of the middle orders, since the more Honor-oriented ones seem to be rather disapproving of assassination, at least as a job.

 

I haven't double-checked but there are 7 in Shinovar no? We don't currently know where Taln's is? Whether he has it or if that's really Taln or?

[FlatLine]

The only problem with Honorblade is that we know where they all are suppose to be,

Kaladin got one, Nalan got one, and then either Nalan or Szeth (or maybe both, can't remember right now) say that the other eight are in Shinovar.

 

beside that, really liked this theory! So I'm pretty sure that if she is a surgebinder, its one of the middle orders, since the more Honor-oriented ones seem to be rather disapproving of assassination, at least as a job.

 

There is one missing that we don't know about. Most of us assumed that one of the heralds went back and got their's

[Elena she/her]

There is one missing that we don't know about. Most of us assumed that one of the heralds went back and got their's

New crack theory: Liss is an Herald.

[Baine he/him]

Why not? I always assumed she was one.

[FlatLine]

New crack theory: Liss is an Herald.

 

Someone going around smashing faces perhaps? 

[Seloun]

I don't see anything that really disproves this. Two possible things to note, however:

 

1) Szeth was her servant for a period of time. It doesn't sound like it was a long period of time, but if she had done anything that would indicate she might be a surgebinder in that time, Szeth would have freaked out. This isn't necessarily a big deal though since it would be pretty reasonable to think she'd be careful about hiding her abilities.

 

2) Darkness is at the feast. If she's a Surgebinder, it's hard to imagine she would have survived very long after that. As an assassin, she's almost certainly guilty of crimes, making her an easy target for Darkness. This does require him to find her, but it seems reasonable to speculate that Darkness has ways of locating or tracking Surgebinders given what we see him do.

 

It's worth noting that 'unregistered' shards don't seem all that uncommon (considering how rare they are), especially with all of the secret societies running around. Among other things, Graves has an entire set, and there's no indication at all that anyone besides Moash and the plotters know about it. Dalinar's Shardblade was unregistered, too, and presumably the shardblades Darkness's followers are using are also unregistered.

[sppipe]

I don't think she has an Honorblade, seeing as they are all but accounted for:

 

1 is with Kal

1 is with whichever herald recovered his, this has been discussed in other threads (only possibility, but I think it i still in the hands of whomever recovered it)

1 is with Taln, who took it to Braize at the end of the last desolation, might or might not be back on Roshar, not likely to be in the hands of a female assassin 

7 back with the shin stone shamans

 

= 10

 

But i like the idea of her being a surgebinder, we know that orders can be strikingly different in their views and interpretation of the ideals, after all, sly does describe pattern as being "Revolting." who knows, maybe there is a spren out there who is okay with some sort of "do what you are hired to do, regardless of what that is" ideology.

Edited March 27, 2014 by sppipe

[Cheeky-eyes she/her]

And as WoB stated, there are several orders that wouldn't have a problem with what Adolin did to Sadeas. So it's not too much of a stretch to assume that there would be orders ok with assassins. 

[Khyrindor he/him]

soo...why was I downvoted? Yeah! Shes a herald! she was there on the assassination too so it all fits!

Edited March 27, 2014 by Khyrindor

[thejopen27 he/him]

Well no matter where Taln is he would have it or be able to summon his blade.  When a Herald dies there blade disappears and it presumably reforms with them when they return from wherever they go after death.  I'm 99 percent sure that the person who the book presents as Taln is Taln as he knows things that a non-Herald shouldn't know and has superhuman reflexes and he has clearly been mentally broken.  I think his ability to speak perfect Alethi somehow results from a supernatural power to be understood or speak all languages. Szeth demonstrated that it is possible to bond with an Honorblade and summon it and banish it.  In the epilogue of book one I think Taln was only carrying his blade because he had gone mad was clinging to the only thing that was wit him when he reappeared. Hoid didn't swap the Shardblades, as said by Brandon, but as Taln was seen holding a blade when he arrived Hoid thought Taln would be left alone if he was holding a unbounded blade that could be taken from him.  If Taln was a darkeyed man with a bonded honorblade he would immediately be under suspicion and smart people would guess his nature as a Herald and greedy people would try to assassinate him for his shardblade..

[Rybal]

Personally, I doubt that she's a Surgebinder.

 

There are several ways that she could have had a Blade. It could be a scenario where she is a part of a guild of assassins (even if only one or two exist at a time - the primary thought is that there is a lineage) where the Blade gets passed down.

 

I think that the most important part about no one knowing that she was a woman has to do with the fact that no one expects an assassin to be a woman - especially in Alethkar. Because of that expectation, she'd be able to get closer to her targets than a man would. What intrigues me about this, though, is the fact that she trusts Jasnah enough to reveal this fact.

[paperhouse]

I bet she is not just a herald, she is Vedeledev. 

 

 

Evidence:

1) her accent. considering the herald inate language abilities, he skill with changing her accent seems perfectly reasonable.

 

2) gouging out the eyes. Vedeledev's body focus in the eyes. the weeper gouges them out. but gouging out the eyes seems a bit extreme, even if you do kill with a shardblade. why? because in a world dominated by shardblade and plate, gouging out the eyes would be a dead giveaway if someone bothered to put two and two together.

 

2b) there is no evidence that she has light eyes. infact, the maid's outfit she appears in seems evidence to the contrary. now how would she have a shard blade and still have dark eyes, unless she is a herald? rember szeth's eyes only changed color when he had summoned his blade (I think, I don't have the quote though)

 

3)I am a believer in the idea that after the heralds broke the oathpact, they lived based on a corrupted version of the attributes. Vedeledev's divine attributes are loving and healing. A hired assassin is about as for from that as you can get.

 

As for the blades, she might have been the herald to reclaim theirs, or brandon/the stone shamans might have mislead us.

[Bramble Thorn]

2b) there is no evidence that she has light eyes. infact, the maid's outfit she appears in seems evidence to the contrary. now how would she have a shard blade and still have dark eyes, unless she is a herald? rember szeth's eyes only changed color when he had summoned his blade (I think, I don't have the quote though)

 

A lighteyed assassin would definitely know about and use eyedrops.

 

And remember, an assassin is supposed to kill quickly, cleanly, and silently. That is to say, the "client" is dead before they can summon a blade. Alodin killed Sadeas on impulse with no planning, and Sadeas still never even got a chance to summon his. An assassin works the same way, only they are way more prepared when they strike.

 

I assumed the weeper got her blade during one of her jobs. She may have even purposefully killed someone to gain one. And her blade could be in the records. But no one knows she even has it, let alone has seen it. As far as the histories know its last recorded location was in the possession of Brightlord Whomever many years ago. Said Brightlord was found dead in his bed and the Blades whereabouts are currently unknown.

[paperhouse]

It could definitely go either way but this seems like something sanderson would do. sort of like the drunk in the prologue of WoK being jezrien.

[Aleksiel]

It would have been obvious if she killed with a Shardblade not only because of the eyes, but the lack of a physical wound as well, so she'd have to fake that too.

 

If she is a Herald, I'd go with Chana more than Vedel. Being an assassin requires some twisted bravery and obedience, so it's a profession fitting Chana's atributes in a dark manner. Of course, she can also be a surgebinder of the Dustbringers as they are Chana's Order. They were warriors after all.

 

Though the best I can say against Liss being a Herald is that Nalan talked about Szeth having his lords blade, so I think other Heralds might had their ways of knowing something like that as well or at least after all those 4500 years a Herald most likely will know what a Truthless is.

[Green Fire he/him]

I thought that she didn't have a blade, but had been taking advantage of Szeth's skills for some time.  Jashnah pieced together the evidence available to deduce the presence of a Shardblade, but attributed it to the assassin not her assistant. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

If she knew about the Blade, she wouldn't just get rid of him though.