[OB] How The Stormlight Archive Should Continue

[red_bruh]

 

Hello All

 

As the wait for Book Four continues, I’ve begun to formulate various thoughts and expectations for how the rest of Stormlight should progress. Now, I have been a lover of the fantasy genre for quite some time, (ASoIaF, LotR, etc.). That being said, I’ve grown tired of the altruistic “good v. evil” fantasy that comes up time and again. Thus far ASoIaF has not really fallen prey to that, but it might depending on the course of the last two books. The show Game of Thrones looks to be heading in that direction based on the ending of Season Seven.

 

One of the main drawbacks I have had with Stormlight is the predictability factor. I am certain that the series (in its current state) will end with Roshar emerging victorious in the brutal struggle against Odium.

 

But Sanderson could subvert all of that, in some ways…

 

1. End the First Arc (Books 1-5) with a “Last Battle” of sorts between Roshar and Odium. At the end of Book Five, Odium has either been destroyed or incapacitated in such a manner that he is no longer a viable threat to anyone. I believe that there is enough time for this to be accomplished. For one thing, via Venli and the other parshmen, discord, doubt, and anger has already been forged against Odium. With a focus of Venli and Eshonai in Book Four (I’ll call it The Rhythm of Storms. It works well on an ominous note while staying true to Parshendi communication), the “Voidbringers” will slowly start to join the Radiants as the Unmade and Sleepless come into full view. Book Five (Skybreaker) will be critical as it covers a battle that sweeps the entire continent. As Szeth is the focus character for Five, the core of conduct with the Radiants and the war against Odium will come to a head and be called into question. Book Five ends in such a regard. Dalinar dies and becomes a new Herald, and is visibly shaken as to where this will lead him. Hoid welcomes him to the Tranquiline Halls. Granted, this is a significant risk, both from a publisher and author standpoint. Tor may have issues with a large ending in the middle of the series, and the lack of readership and interest that may result.

2. The Second Arc (Books 6-10) is set 30-45 years after the end of Five. The characters who are alive, (most likely Kaladin, Shallan, Lift, not Adolin) are insanely corrupt, and a shadow of the young heroes we once knew. The seek out the destruction of all who cannot stand against supernatural forces. Honor, aka the Almighty, was resurrected by the Radiants in between Five and Six, in an attempt to secure everlasting peace. A war begins to brew, this time with the Three Realms: Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. We saw this for a bit at the end of Oathbringer, but now the melding is permanent. It is absolute chaos in what should have been a happily ever after. The Second Arc will follow a conflict between Honor, Cultivation, and other Cosmere forces: Braize, the Tranquiline Halls, etc. It’s hard to map out the exact details, but this second half must show the fallacy and corruption of the true power the young foolhardy heroes were given.

Sanderson could end the predictability halfway through!

 

Thanks!

[KalaDANG he/him]

There is so much wrong here, I don’t even know where to start. Do you not want the good guys to win? I mean, I wouldn’t wanna read a book where the bad guys that we hate win in the end. No duh the good guys win. Journey before Destination bro. We know that in the end, the good guys are likely going to bring Odium down. It’s the journey we care about.  

It’s actually kind of ironic that you think the story is so predictable, but you didn’t even get most of the facts right. Let alone the speculation.

Edited July 17, 2018 by KalaDANG

[Calderis he/him]

The Tranquiline Halls a religious belief only. We will never see an afterlife that is not Shadesmar. The Beyond is not ever going to be confirmed or denied. 

Brandon has plenty of moral ambiguity. Taravangian, if I'm correct, is going to be a hero figure despite himself. Malata shows that Radiants do not have to be heroes. The Skybreakers have changed sides. The Singers themselves are not evil. 

Hell, Shards themselves are not good or evil, even Ruin.

Brandon writes the stories the way he does, and has said outright that the darker style of aSoIaF is something he isn't interested in doing.

[goody153]

I think OP may not actually know cosmere. Since he's thinking that Stormlight is standalone from his story plan(granted it's really standalone but the story conclusion here is most likely connected to cosmere just like mistborn did)

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Tranquiline Halls a religious belief only. We will never see an afterlife that is not Shadesmar. The Beyond is not ever going to be confirmed or denied. 

Brandon has plenty of moral ambiguity. Taravangian, if I'm correct, is going to be a hero figure despite himself. Malata shows that Radiants do not have to be heroes. The Skybreakers have changed sides. The Singers themselves are not evil. 

Hell, Shards themselves are not good or evil, even Ruin.

Brandon writes the stories the way he does, and has said outright that the darker style of aSoIaF is something he isn't interested in doing.

Yep yep. Sanderson's version of moral ambiguity is already uniquely portrayed (example would be his religious fanaticism from Mistborn) we don't another grimdark portrayal style. You have Malazan/ASOIAF for that.

Idk why alot of people assume that having a much darker style like ASOIAF or Malazan would make a fantasy better. Dark is not always better. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by goody153

[red_bruh]

2 hours ago, KalaDANG said:

There is so much wrong here, I don’t even know where to start. Do you not want the good guys to win? I mean, I wouldn’t wanna read a book where the bad guys that we hate win in the end. No duh the good guys win. Journey before Destination bro. We know that in the end, the good guys are likely going to bring Odium down. It’s the journey we care about.  

It’s actually kind of ironic that you think the story is so predictable, but you didn’t even get most of the facts right. Let alone the speculation.

Thanks for your opinion! Granted, I've only read each book once, so the fine details may sometimes be lost in translation after I've read them. This is for my own piece of mind in moving forward with the series, but I'd like to know where I was incorrect regarding facts in my speculation. Was it my venture that Dalinar could become a new Herald, or something with the Parshendi and the Tranquiline Halls?

[Calderis he/him]

@red_bruh ignore anything coming across as insults. The only thing I see that you made as a "mistake" is something that, unless you religiously follow WoBs, is completely understandable, and that's the Tranquiline Halls thing.

The rest... I've seen plenty of speculation that the main cast will become the new Heralds, plenty still argue it. 

Your opinion is your own, and you liking what you like and wanting to see that aren't faults. 

I personally don't think Brandon will go that direction, but I also think he'll surprise you with what's "predictable." 

And just for reference, here's Brandon's statement on the Beyond, or well... The only objective "afterlife" we're aware of other than a Cognitive Shadow persisting in Shadesmar. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

After people die, in this universe, where do they go? Because, at first they appear in the <?>, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being... yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because... Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll things to think upon.

source

 

[red_bruh]

@Calderis Thanks for the insight into Sanderson's intentions! I haven't really ever had the opportunity to discuss this series, as I'm the only one I know who has read it, and I'd love to what others' thoughts and predictions may be! Where do you see Stormlight going towards in Book Four and beyond?

[Calderis he/him]

@red_bruh I could write entirely too much on that... And I have entirely too often... So heres two quotes relevant to the turn we'll see in book 4 (Song of Secrets is my guess for title), the future of the Diagram, and a link to what I think Szeth's arc will hit in maybe starting in book 4, but definitely into book 5 (Stones Unhallowed, if he keeps the same name as when book 3 was tentatively Szeth's), all spoilered for length (and the fact that every ounce of it is unsubstantiated speculation) 

Spoiler

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Up to this point, we literally have not seen Odium try. He hasn't been searching for anything, he hasn't even been fighting, because he presumed that winning was inevitable. 

The Fused could have taken Kholinar on their own at any time and they didn't. They pressed the Wall Guard, who hadn't managed to kill any of them, to test their defenses for once the Singers arrived en masse to give a victory to the fledgling people. 

They planned to have them all as spectators at Thaylen city to show them that they were unbeatable, and that failed miserably. 

Every interaction between Odium and Dalinar was Odium speaking like a bully, smug in his confidence that he'd already won the fight. 

Thaylen city changed everything. It's the turning point at which Odium was forced to realize that this situation is not what he thought. 

Next book were going to see the Desolation in truth. Up to now, all we've seen is Odium toying with prey he thought hadn't realized it was already dead. He was wrong. 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:47 AM, Calderis said:

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

 

Welcome to the Shard, we all spend entirely too much time here, and are happy to discuss. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I was under the impression the gap between books was 7 to 10 years . 30 years seem to be a long Time Lift would be 10(43) Shallan would be 47 and Kaladin 49. Dalinar would either be dead or since he is already a confirmed sliver , fully ascend and become Unity. That’s too much of a gap to be effective in my opinion.

    I do agree with you that the major conflict with Odium may wrap up by book 5 .but as far as Good vs Evil I highly doubt that. Teravangion is the perfect example . At the end of book one i thought he was the most evil person in the series. It’s only after Oathbringer do we see he is not evil at all . Extremely pragmatic yes , ruthless yes , but he really want to save as many people as possible 

[RShara she/her]

The current plan is for book 6 to be 10-15 years after book 5. Maybe a little more or a little less, but that's the ballpark. 30 years is far too long for many of our current characters to survive until then, and at least some of them will, I'm sure. Jasnah is slated to be a main character, and should she survive, she'd be getting close to 70 in our years.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't need to die to become a Herald. And I don't think he'll be able to do that anyway. Additionally, the very concept of Honor and the Heralds requires the person to take up the mantle with Intent. I am absolutely certain that you cannot become a Herald by accident.

Also, we have some idea of the conditions on Braize, which is where the Heralds go when they die. They don't go to the Tranquilline Halls, which is Ashyn. And....Hoid is NOT the person I would want to welcome me to the afterlife, even if that was where they were And as Calderis said, the physical Tranquilline Halls aren't really an afterlife. It's just Ashyn, the planet that humans destroyed and fled from, to Roshar. There's not going to be confirmation or denial of any afterlife in the Cosmere.

I have no idea how anyone would reassemble Honor, but I'm fairly sure that it can't be done by regular mortals Actually, I'm positive it can't be done without a strong Connection to Honor, and lots of funky magic. Just being a surgebinder would totally not be enough. And if they were to do that, doing it off-screen would be a horrible writing practice.

The second half of the Stormlight Arc isn't meant to be the grand finale of the Cosmere, so I don't think there will be any additional forces at play or any absolute Realm-affecting changes. The grand finale is planned to be Mistborn 4, the sci-fi series, which is going to be hundreds of years in the future and have Hoid as a main character. So something that really screws up the three Realms really can't happen during the Stormlight series.

Edited July 17, 2018 by RShara

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I can see the appeal of the story suggested by the OP. I just don´t think it would be right for Stormlight. Sandersons books generally don´t go that dark, and that is one of the many things that a lot of the fandom appreciates, I think. I think the plotline you describe is interesting, but maybe not suited for Sandersons books. Have an upvote, and welcome to the forums!

[RShara she/her]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can see the appeal of the story suggested by the OP. I just don´t think it would be right for Stormlight. Sandersons books generally don´t go that dark, and that is one of the many things that a lot of the fandom appreciates, I think. I think the plotline you describe is interesting, but maybe not suited for Sandersons books. Have an upvote, and welcome to the forums!

Yeah sorry, it was late and I was trying to squeeze my post in before bed haha. I can definitely see the appeal of OP's suggestions, and absolutely OP is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think that Brandon is going to write in that direction, and there are some plot and Realmatic problems alongside that make that specific scenario unlikely. But we've seen in the past that Brandon's not adverse to a bittersweet ending, so it's totally not going to be all sunshine and roses at the climax.

[Wander89 he/him]

I always appreciate people's thoughts and theories with things like this and encourage it however I agree that the OP might also think that Stormlight Archive, although can be read self-contained, is not related to any further Cosmere stories. I disagree with a few points, Dalinar dying, Tranquiline Halls, etc but previous posts indicate my own thoughts also.

 

I'd recommend reading the books a further time and also the other Cosmere stories and novellas. My apologies if this is not the case but I do encourage you to continue speculating since there are a good few points that, once ironed out, may actually be pretty interesting

 

 

[Vissy]

A war between the three realms would be... a total disaster of a plotline. I'm sorry. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

3 minutes ago, Vissy said:

A war between the three realms would be... a total disaster of a plotline. I'm sorry. 

Not to mention impossible considering that so far as we know there is no "life" in the spiritual realm. Even the melding of realms would not necessarily cause chaos. I don't see how this point would achieve the OP's aim for darkness in any case.

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I saw something earlier on another thread. It contained a WoB from Brandon saying the first 5 books is one story . And the back 5 books is another plotline. Only special characters will be in both. Lift was a confirmed character for both. So this kind of changed my whole viewpoint of the series. I think the back 5 books will be shorter as well . He predicts 18 months between books. Kind of reminds me of the same set up that Mistborn had. I also fear a lot of our favorite characters will die . Szeth my favorite is probably going to die. He is just too awesome to survive until era 2 stormlight . If he does I’ll be one happy camper!

[red_bruh]

Hello again and thanks for the replies! I knew that what I thought might not be met with positivity, so I appreciate the honesty that you all conveyed. 

In looking back, there are some issues that I'd like to clear up:

1. I am aware of the Cosmere, though not intimately acquainted with it. Stormlight is the only work/series that I have read from the universe, though I did attempt Mistborn a little while back. I do want to read the entire body of work and look forward to doing so. At the moment though, I'm not familiar with what can and cannot be done in the Cosmere. I'd love to get recommendations on key Wiki pages/short stories/other Cosmere books that specifically illuminate the mythology and origin of the Cosmere as a whole.

2. I don't think my intent was to push for Stormlight to become "dark fantasy" but I wanted true variation in all character dynamics. Realistic approaches to various situations and dilemmas that reflect what we see in our world is what I crave from any large series, not just fantasy. Moreover, characters like Kaladin have become somewhat fitted into character tropes. I don't deny that these characters have conflict, they absolutely do! But I feel that Sanderson has begun to write characters in "circles." That is to say the conflict and pain of a character is revisited time and again with no profound movements in character progression. I found that to be the case with Kaladin in Oathbringer. 

3. And no, I don't want the "bad guys" to win. I'm not some sort of nihilistic sociopath. I just want elements of storytelling that set this apart from the thousands of other works in this genre. @KalaDANG put it plainly by saying "Journey before Destination bro," and I couldn't agree more. I want to be immersed in a vast, emotional journey in the world of Roshar for many years to come. But I'd like to posit this closing argument, which sums up my qualms of the series.

What good is the Journey, when we've seen the Destination countless times before?

Once again, thanks!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@red_bruh I don’t really agree with you regarding Kaladin. He is finally starting to realize that he can’t be the savior at all times. That is a big step for him to take, and allows him to develop away from the guilt of failing people. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Toaster Retribution

[Calderis he/him]

His problem in this one also wasn't a return to his depression. That did happen, but only after he was unable to make a choice on who to protect. It's a different issue that brought on an existing psychological symptom. 

It was remarkably realistic, and as @Toaster Retribution said, it's something that he needs to face. As long as he puts the responsibility of saving everyone on himself he will be doomed to fail no matter how powerful he becomes. He's only one man. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

On 19 July 2018 at 5:43 AM, Calderis said:

His problem in this one also wasn't a return to his depression. That did happen, but only after he was unable to make a choice on who to protect. It's a different issue that brought on an existing psychological symptom. 

It was remarkably realistic, and as @Toaster Retribution said, it's something that he needs to face. As long as he puts the responsibility of saving everyone on himself he will be doomed to fail no matter how powerful he becomes. He's only one man. 

Due to his heroic nature I've seen a large proportion of the community predict that Kaladin will die at the end of book 5. I personally think that this expectation is precisely why Kaladin will survive the first arc. Imagine the kind of survivors guilt Kaladin would go through if his friends died while he survived the Sanderstorm to conclude the first arc. I could definitely imagine Brandon taking Kaladin's story in this direction. Do you have any thoughts in this regard?

[Vissy]

5 hours ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Due to his heroic nature I've seen a large proportion of the community predict that Kaladin will die at the end of book 5. I personally think that this expectation is precisely why Kaladin will survive the first arc. Imagine the kind of survivors guilt Kaladin would go through if his friends died while he survived the Sanderstorm to conclude the first arc. I could definitely imagine Brandon taking Kaladin's story in this direction. Do you have any thoughts in this regard?

Personally, I don't like that at all. It'd basically be Kaladin back to square one all over again. I'd much rather prefer to see Kal grow into a happier and more positive person, with a better self-esteem and a controlled hero complex. The kind of person who could weather even the loss of many friends. The current Kal would fall into irreversible depression. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

The Lopen will become King of Herdaz. Now that he has a shardblade he is automatically 4th don by alethi caste system. I would like to see characters in the back 5 , go to Herdaz only to   Run into King The Lopen lol. I’ll die laughing at that.