A more esoteric kind of magic

[DracostarA]

In Khriss' essay on the Rosharan system, she suggests that in addition to Surgebinding and Voidbinding, she predicts a third, more esoteric type of magic (and believes it unlikely to be the Old Magic). 

Could this perhaps be what Renarin is doing? He obviously is not a true Surgebinder, but neither is he a user of voidlight. While this does just seem to be a mix of the two, Brandon has always mentioned Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials as the only magic on Roshar. Obviously this may be a misdirection, but if not, I believe Renarin and the children of Sja-Anat to be responsible for this third type of binding. 

Also, Surgebinding is a blend of Honor and Cultivation, but is there confirmation Voidbinding is purely of Odium, or could it be a blend of Odium and Honor's Investiture?

[Juanaton]

Based on the names I’d say voidbinding is from a mixture of Odium and Honor.

My analysis supporting this goes like this: a surge is a (typically rapid) change or progression, so related to Cultivation. Honor is related to oaths and binding. So surgebinding is Cultivation/Honor. Similarly, Odium is void so voidbinding is Odium/Honor.

[Leyrann]

12 hours ago, DracostarA said:

Brandon has always mentioned Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials as the only magic on Roshar. Obviously this may be a misdirection, but if not, I believe Renarin and the children of Sja-Anat to be responsible for this third type of binding. 

There is one thing you can keep in mind. Brandon may misdirect and obfuscate, but he does not lie. At worst he changes his mind. If he straight up says he considers Fabrials a separate magic system, it's safe to assume that it is.

Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Fabrials are only part of the magic system. Perhaps there's a bigger underlying principle that will be discovered eventually, while currently only the specific use of the Fabrials is known.

[DracostarA]

@Juanaton So you postulate a third system of voidsurging or something along those lines?

@Leyrann The thing that makes me believe Fabrials are not what Khriss was referring to with this are twofold: 

1. In the same Ars Arcanum she mentions and discusses the basics of Fabrial technology, so if she thought it was related she probably would have mentioned it alongside Surgebinding and Voidbinding.
2. She specifically mentions 'a set of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings' which, in my opinion, discounts Fabrials since they are a magical technology accessible by anyone and not abilities. If Surgebinding and Voidbinding are the only other forms of magic on Roshar, I'm not sure where a whole new set of abilities would fit unless they are a combination of the two, which Renarin appears to have ('Surgebinding' Progression and maybe 'Voidbinding' Illumination? Though the future visions he have may be a combination of Illumination and Progression, though that's a discussion for another topic perhaps).

[Leyrann]

1 minute ago, DracostarA said:

@Juanaton So you postulate a third system of voidsurging or something along those lines?

@Leyrann The thing that makes me believe Fabrials are not what Khriss was referring to with this are twofold: 

1. In the same Ars Arcanum she mentions and discusses the basics of Fabrial technology, so if she thought it was related she probably would have mentioned it alongside Surgebinding and Voidbinding.
2. She specifically mentions 'a set of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings' which, in my opinion, discounts Fabrials since they are a magical technology accessible by anyone and not abilities. If Surgebinding and Voidbinding are the only other forms of magic on Roshar, I'm not sure where a whole new set of abilities would fit unless they are a combination of the two, which Renarin appears to have ('Surgebinding' Progression and maybe 'Voidbinding' Illumination? Though the future visions he have may be a combination of Illumination and Progression, though that's a discussion for another topic perhaps).

Well, if Khriss and Brandon disagree it's pretty easy for me. Khriss is an in-universe scholar who doesn't know everything but is an expert in her field (paraphrasing from Brandon) while Brandon is the author who created the universe and never lies. So if Khriss says "there's Surgebinding, Voidbinding, something else, oh and there's also these Fabrials" and Brandon says "there's three magic systems, Surgebinding, Voidbinding and Fabrials" (paraphrased of course), then I'm going with Brandon.

[DracostarA]

@Leyrann No, so I mean to say both of them are true : Fabrials are a type of magic but I wouldn't consider them a set of abilities. So my argument is that Renarin is using this set of abilities which uses both Voidbinding and Surgebinding, and so is not a distinct type of magic but forms a new set of abilities that regular Surgebinders and Voidbinders would not have.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

@Leyrann No, so I mean to say both of them are true : Fabrials are a type of magic but I wouldn't consider them a set of abilities. So my argument is that Renarin is using this set of abilities which uses both Voidbinding and Surgebinding, and so is not a distinct type of magic but forms a new set of abilities that regular Surgebinders and Voidbinders would not have.

Fabrials are one of the three magic systems to Roshar, in themselves. 

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

 

[DracostarA]

@Calderis Sorry I'm not sure if I am getting my point across well. I agree fabrials are a magic system and am not disputing that. What I am saying is I believe the 'more esoteric' set of abilities is but a combination of Surgebinding and Voidbinding, and not that it is another magic system in and of itself.

[Juanaton]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:57 PM, DracostarA said:

So you postulate a third system of voidsurging or something along those lines?

Not necessarily, although probably. Voidsurging sounds like it would produce rapid growth of nothingness while Surgevoiding sounds like it would reduce growth to zero...so I'm not sure about the interactions between Odium and Cultivation. Perhaps that has to do with the principles of Fabrial tech, imprisoning spren so that the changes they typically respond to are controlled and available on command rather than occurring naturally.

[ZenBossanova]

Thus far, I would say that Radiants and old fabrials are applications of the magic of surgebinding. Likewise, Venli's new bond, will involve surgebinding, even if it isn't a regular Nahel-bond. So, the magic is fundamental, and the kind of bond you can make, determines how it manifests. Human (nahel) bonds, Parshendi (forms) bonds, Aimian (fabrials) bonds, and even horses/Ryshadium. 

We haven't really seen Voidbinding, probably. If we have, then it makes twisted versions of regular Surges. Regardless, it will be a different kind of bond. 

The Old Magic appears to simply be Surgebinding without the Oaths. (Does that mean that whoever binds the Nightwatcher needs no oaths?!!? That could be shocking, especially if Taravangian binds her. ) 

For the more esoteric abilities, let's keep an eye on Rock and Lopen. And any Natanans. Why them? Rock (a Horneater) and Lopen (a Herdazian) have a bit of Parshendi ancestry in them. Remember Rock's strange moment when he weilds a shardbow? That should NOT be possible. It might be because he is partly a hybrid. 

Likewise, the Natanans are Aimian hybrids. 

It will all be Surgebinding, but in ways and forms we never thought of. 

Now, as complicated as this is, Renarin and Venli appear to doing partial Surgebinding/Voidbinding. If regular Radiants have interesting resonances/quirks, then these could be far more unique and surprising. 

This means that, while previous Desolations had 10 human Surges, and perhaps 10 Aimian ones, we could now be looking at as many as 10+10+10 regular bonds, 10+10+10 hybrid bonds, 10 double hybrid bonds (Human-Parshendi-Aimians, if such a thing exists), and double all that for partial surge/void binding. 

140 kinds of bonds. 

This could get complicated and esoteric. 

Keep an eye on Rock and Lopen, as well as Renarin, Venli and (I hope) Rlain. 

[dvoraen]

Honestly, I think the "abilities even more esoteric than the Voidbindings" are those rare talents granted by the Nightwatcher (or Cultivation) to people, such as Lift's Investiture-producing metabolism.  Only one person having it (that we know of) is pretty esoteric, to the point even Nale was caught off guard by it.

[Juanaton]

Referring back to my last post in this thread, I now wonder if what I said is the thought process that led Khriss to posit the third, more esoteric, set of abilities/magic.

Since WoB is there are only voidbinding, surgebinding, and fabrials I was attempting to harmonize with that. But I now think it possible that I (and Khriss) presented a logical but incorrect explanation of those two magic systems.

[DracostarA]

@Juanaton I agree that WoB trumps Khriss, but then I wonder what is the storytelling purpose of including that? I just don't think it makes sense for Brandon to suggest a third set of abilities and for them to not exist. What purpose does it serve for the reader to think there may be one more set of abilities besides Voidbinding and Surgebinding when in truth there is none such ability?

[Quantus]

@DracostarA I could see somebody describing Fabrials as "a set of Abilities" from the perspective that Fabrials are not generic devices (as compared to a Magic Wand sort), rather they each perform a single, specific function. 

The other possibilities I could see are

A)Something the Shin are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct,

B)Something the Horneaters (or other Spren-blooded) are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct,

C) Something the Singers are doing that Kriss classifies as distinct, 

D)The Heralds/Honorblades, which arguably are different (and "esoteric" in the literal Very Few Know Anything about it) than Radiant Surgebinders, or

E)The Dawnshards

F) Kriss said it's a magic from the Rosharan System, not Roshar, so give me Ashyn or Braize Magic Please??  (my favorite possibility, if you couldnt tell :-P)

[DracostarA]

@Quantus The suggestion Khriss makes of the third set of abilities being 'entirely different' to Old Magic and Void/Surgebinding does give credence to the idea of some sort of yet-unseen Fabrial technology. The Fabrials we've seen so far are either Surges or basic magitech so I think if they are the third type, it is definitely something vastly different to what we've seen. However, what we HAVE seen of Fabrials is,  I'd argue, the opposite of esoteric, without much mystery and is treated as a science - I think if I'm wrong on the third set of abilities, it will likely be something new that comes up at the end of the first half of SA or during the second half (after all there'll still be surprises leading up to the end of the series so I'm sure there'll be a srpeading out of revelations. 

Of the options you put forward I think A, E and F are the most plausible. It has been mentioned that Braize is home to only Cognitive Shadows (I believe only the Heralds and the Fused are ever there) so I doubt it's there, and Ashyn's magic would have been named Surges by Rosharans so F is still a bit iffy for me.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

@Quantus The suggestion Khriss makes of the third set of abilities being 'entirely different' to Old Magic and Void/Surgebinding does give credence to the idea of some sort of yet-unseen Fabrial technology. The Fabrials we've seen so far are either Surges or basic magitech so I think if they are the third type, it is definitely something vastly different to what we've seen. However, what we HAVE seen of Fabrials is,  I'd argue, the opposite of esoteric, without much mystery and is treated as a science - I think if I'm wrong on the third set of abilities, it will likely be something new that comes up at the end of the first half of SA or during the second half (after all there'll still be surprises leading up to the end of the series so I'm sure there'll be a srpeading out of revelations. 

Of the options you put forward I think A, E and F are the most plausible. It has been mentioned that Braize is home to only Cognitive Shadows (I believe only the Heralds and the Fused are ever there) so I doubt it's there, and Ashyn's magic would have been named Surges by Rosharans so F is still a bit iffy for me.

Given that Voidbinding and Surgebinding mirror each other so much but are still considered distinct (by both Khriss and Brandon), I dont think that whatever the third is would have to actually appear or function in ways all that dissimilar; Fabrials could fall into that, especially if they are indeed capable of effects that the Radiant orders cannot mimic with their own Surges. 

[DracostarA]

@Quantus But to be more esoteric means this third system just must not be nearly as well understood as the other two, and given how much knowledge there is in-world on Voidbinding (i.e. near to none from what we've seen so far) compared to Fabrials  - where we've seen some fairly advanced fabrials made in the past and plans for others in the future - I don't think the claim can be made that Fabrial technology is more esoteric than Voidbinding.

[Quantus]

29 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

@Quantus But to be more esoteric means this third system just must not be nearly as well understood as the other two, and given how much knowledge there is in-world on Voidbinding (i.e. near to none from what we've seen so far) compared to Fabrials  - where we've seen some fairly advanced fabrials made in the past and plans for others in the future - I don't think the claim can be made that Fabrial technology is more esoteric than Voidbinding.

Esoteric just means "adj. intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."  It doesnt have to mean that it is not known or understood at all, just that it is a very rare/obscure specialty that is not widely known (like the .  Fabrials are only truly understood by a relatively small community of scholars on Roshar as present who are still figuring out the basics (as compared to the Heralds or to Radiants of previous desolation cycles), so I would think that would qualify (independent of their individual levels of understanding).

 

In the real world things often become esoteric knowledge once they become so obsolete that there are relatively few people left with the knowledge or training, aka the Lost Arts.  Bladesmithing is a good example, the intricacies of that body of knowledge are being lost more and more as swordplay itself is being left behind.  We used to be good at them because people would still literally live or die by their quality.  Fabrials seem like they are in the same boat, a lost art that they are only starting to re-discover.

[MountainKing]

I just want to point out that atrifabrians do weird things to the gemstones to make fabrials. All gemstones can be used in altering fabrials, but only rubies and garnets can be used in pairing fabrials, and each gemstone can only be used in one sub class of pairing fabrials. Finally to pair fabrials you put them through a special process that connects them(probably in the spiritual realm.). This is without surgebinding because anyone can learn how to be an atrifabrians.

[DracostarA]

@Quantus My argument is just that so far we have (to my knowledge) not seen any character mention anything suggesting they understand Voidbinding - just references to it (Renarin, Fused etc aren't made explicit yet) while we have seen people like Navani and her colleagues understanding some complex Fabrial technology. While Fabrial knowledge is not significantly widespread, I'm just contending that with what we have seen it would be false to claim it is more esoteric than Voidbinding.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, DracostarA said:

@Quantus My argument is just that so far we have (to my knowledge) not seen any character mention anything suggesting they understand Voidbinding - just references to it (Renarin, Fused etc aren't made explicit yet) while we have seen people like Navani and her colleagues understanding some complex Fabrial technology. While Fabrial knowledge is not significantly widespread, I'm just contending that with what we have seen it would be false to claim it is more esoteric than Voidbinding.

Ok, I see where you are coming from now; thats a valid point from a rosharan/human POV.  Assuming those Khris entries were from the OB timeline, Voidbringing is active again and has a full army of people who have never forgotten any of their tricks from past desolation, making them arguably the most well and widely understood of them (within it's own users anyway).  And I had a blindspot for the Radiants because it's what we know the most about, but arguably it's the smallest and least understood of the three.  I personally think they will have to rediscover their Radiant abilities before they will have the nessesary powers and perspective to understand the Fabrial tech they've been trying to rediscover.  

 

5 hours ago, DracostarA said:

Of the options you put forward I think A, E and F are the most plausible. It has been mentioned that Braize is home to only Cognitive Shadows (I believe only the Heralds and the Fused are ever there) so I doubt it's there, and Ashyn's magic would have been named Surges by Rosharans so F is still a bit iffy for me.

Not necessarily, Surges are something that both Surgebinding and Voidbinding seem to have (if not exactly identical ones), but as I understand it voidbinding only arose as a response to the Heralds and/or Radiants that had Honor's Surges (also redis implied to indicate Copied Magic), whereas the Ashyn magic would have predated a bunch of that.  Combine that with the fact that "10" is supposed to be the magic number for the whole system, and not just Roshar itself, there'd be some symmetry to Roshar=Surgebinding, Braize=Voidbinging, and Ashyn=???

Separately, Id make an argument for B on the grounds that we have a organized/mortal used magic system for the other two shards but not Cultivation, and the Horneaters have developed living right on top of her Perpendicularity and having their own close relationships with Spren ("relationships" of all kinds if being Spren-blooded is a thing...). 

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Combine that with the fact that "10" is supposed to be the magic number for the whole system, and not just Roshar itself, there'd be some symmetry to Roshar=Surgebinding, Braize=Voidbinging, and Ashyn=???

I'm not sure if this is a boon or curse on the way that your theorizing here, but Braize does not fit with the rest of the system. 

Quote

Herald (paraphrased)

Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharan star system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharan system.

Herald (paraphrased)

The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Big RAFO.

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

source

 

[DracostarA]

@Quantus

8 hours ago, Quantus said:

Separately, Id make an argument for B on the grounds that we have a organized/mortal used magic system for the other two shards but not Cultivation, and the Horneaters have developed living right on top of her Perpendicularity and having their own close relationships with Spren ("relationships" of all kinds if being Spren-blooded is a thing...). 

WoB has mentioned that surgebinding is a combination of Honor and Cultivation's Investiture, with both honorspren and cultivationspren being radiant spren, so I don't think there is necessarily a need for a pure Cultivation magic system. On the other hand though, I remember Rock using the Shardbow and since he's the only person to have used it onscreen without the assistance of Shardplate, there might be something more going on there.

 @Calderis I don't think the 9-centric quality Braize has is necessarily relevant here, since while there are 9 Unmade, the Voidbinding Chart shows 10 'orders' and Khriss mentions the '10 levels of Voidbinding' so Voidbinding and Surgebinding have 10 'surges' and 10 'orders'. The issue with Ashyn is what we know about it and its disease based magic (which, IMO, would fit the qualification of being a more esoteric set of abilities) but does not necessarily follow the 10-centric structure the other two have.

All in all, I am of the opinion that there is a lot more to Voidbinding than what we've seen, and I think Venli's book should give us a much better idea of what exactly the Fused are doing, and what exactly Voidbinding is.

[Quantus]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm not sure if this is a boon or curse on the way that your theorizing here, but Braize does not fit with the rest of the system. 

 

Honestly neither am I, Im more exploring the topic that presenting a cohesive theory, these are all new discussions for me.  On the 9vs10 for Braize, you arent wrong at all but there's enough other Ten-ness everywhere else (as @DracostarA mentioned) that Im willing to entertain that the significance of 9 is more of a Odium Corruption of the Ten (especially with how it was a bit of an afterthought in that WOB). 

2 hours ago, DracostarA said:

@Quantus

WoB has mentioned that surgebinding is a combination of Honor and Cultivation's Investiture, with both honorspren and cultivationspren being radiant spren, so I don't think there is necessarily a need for a pure Cultivation magic system. On the other hand though, I remember Rock using the Shardbow and since he's the only person to have used it onscreen without the assistance of Shardplate, there might be something more going on there.

Spren are both, but Id argue they are still just imitating the function of the Honorblades, so I tend to consider the Radiant surges to be Honor's system.

 

2 hours ago, DracostarA said:

 

 @Calderis  The issue with Ashyn is what we know about it and its disease based magic (which, IMO, would fit the qualification of being a more esoteric set of abilities) but does not necessarily follow the 10-centric structure the other two have.

Oh wow, I did not know about that at ALL but I now see that The Silence Divine exists.  I thought Ashyn was still just a big Mysteryball.  So ya, that's my clear favorite for the "more esoteric" magic system in greater Roshar.  Do we know When that was set?  Would that have been before the Rosharan migration, or something more contemporary?  I wonder if that disease-magic came with any of them, I could see Cultivation loving that sort of toy. 

[DracostarA]

@Quantus IIRC there are floating cities and people living on Ashyn after the migration to Roshar, and I believe The Silence Divine exists, at the very least, after humans moved to Roshar. In the Arcanum Unbounded essay Khriss mentions people living in small pockets on Ashyn while also mentioning Surgebinding humans on Roshar, Odium on Braize, and the death of Honor - so I believe the disease based magic exists contemporary to the Stormlight Archive.