Fire&Water Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) So, I’m rereading basically every cosmere book and I notice Rock’s description of Cultivation’s perpendicularity in WoR. Next, among Szeth’s interactions with Nale, he mentions that aboshi is the title for the Spren of the mountains. Third, I read the epigraphs in part 5, mentioning the 3 listener gods: 1) Spren 2) Stone 3) Wind. We already know that Honor (later the Stormfather) is one of the gods, and that Cultivation is another. In Dalinar’s interactions with the Stormfather, his voice is described as thundering, while in his meeting with Cultivation, her voice is described as “tumbling stones”. I think it likely that these two are the gods of stone and wind. This leaves us with the question of who is the 3rd listener god? Spren seems pretty generic. Well, considering the fact that the first two are the Spren of the wind and the Spren of the stones, the most likely, although strange sounding, is that the third god is the Spren of the Spren. Almost like mankind’s understanding that Spren exist, manifest as an idea of its own. I think this fits into the 3rd siblings role as the life force behind Urithiru, the ultimate fabrial gets the ultimate spren. Also, the Stormfather tells Dalinar that the Sibling has been hurt enough. Seemingly more than any other spren, even with the Radiants breaking their bonds. Maybe, with the Recreance, when the vast majority of bonded spren were forgotten (excluding Nale and his Skybreakers), the Spren of the Spren lost most of its power, as Spren feed off the thoughts of people. Is there a shard attached to this sibling? Where are they sleeping? Who will wake them up, and when? No idea, although the idea of Navani (or maybe even Rushu) bonding them sounds awesome, if somewhat predictable. Edited July 10, 2018 by Fire&Water 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leyrann Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) Most popular theory is actually that the gods aren't the Shards, but rather the large spren, namely the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher and the Sibling. The most consensus for what those spren belong to is actually Stormfather with wind, Nightwatcher with spren and Sibling with stone. Also, spren don't feed off of people; they're sapient Investiture and exist by themselves, though their ideas are shaped by people. It does seem like the large spren are less affected by this however. As for the Shard attached to the Sibling, there's either no correlation between Shards and large spren, or it's Odium, as we know from Brandon there hasn't been a fourth Shard involved on Roshar. Also Rushu is suspected to be one of the Heralds, I believe Battab (?). Edited July 10, 2018 by Leyrann 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) @Fire&Water welcome, and I must say fantastic first post! As Leyrann said, the idea that the Sibling is the Spren of stone is fairly common, and there's always something that's felt off about that to me. Your post made me realize why that is. Stone in our world is something barren and lifeless and a sign of hard earth and no plants. This isn't true on Roshar. Stone, everywhere but Shinovar, is the fertile ground where everything grows. Roshar isn't Barren, it's lush. The Nightwatcher, as the Spren of stone, would be the Spren of life and growth. And if the Sibling were the Spren of spren... It would be in essence a sibling to all spren. I like it. Have a well deserved first post upvote. Edited July 10, 2018 by Calderis 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Stone in our world is something barren and lifeless and a sign of hard earth and no plants. This isn't true on Roshar. Stone, everywhere but Shinovar, is the fertile ground where everything grows. Roshar isn't Barren, it's lush. The Nightwatcher, as the Spren of stone, would be the Spren of life and growth. Ooo, that's an interesting interpretation, haven't seen that one before. Hmm, I still think its the opposite way, the Sibling representing the continent/world/stone of Roshar, do to being so connected to Urithu which seems more grown out of stone rather than constructed, and Nightwatcher representing the life spren can take on. But I wouldn't be upset with Nightwatcher being stone either. Thinking of stone being fertile is such an alien concept, but would fit right in on Roshar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire&Water Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Leyrann said: Most popular theory is actually that the gods aren't the Shards, but rather the large spren, namely the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher and the Sibling. The most consensus for what those spren belong to is actually Stormfather with wind, Nightwatcher with spren and Sibling with stone. Regardless of wether the gods are the shards or the Spren, I have two problems with the Nightwatcher being the Spren of Cultivation. 1st of all, Rock and Szeth both indicate that Cultivation’s Spren is in the Horneater peaks, not the Nightwatcher’s valley. 2nd, Cultivation refers to the Nightwatcher as her daughter, a relationship never mentioned by the Stormfather. 3rd, didn’t the Stormfather explicitly say that the Nightwatcher is not one of the siblings? (Side theory: the Nightwatcher reminds me of an upgraded Cultivationspren) 3 hours ago, Leyrann said: Also, spren don't feed off of people; they're sapient Investiture and exist by themselves, though their ideas are shaped by people. It does seem like the large spren are less affected by this however. How exactly Spren work is a moot point. We know that the essence of things is shaped by people. And of course the Stormfather and Cultivation’s Spren aren’t affected by people forgetting about them. Nobody does. In fact, being both are worshipped by different societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Fire&Water said: Regardless of wether the gods are the shards or the Spren, I have two problems with the Nightwatcher being the Spren of Cultivation. 1st of all, Rock and Szeth both indicate that Cultivation’s Spren is in the Horneater peaks, not the Nightwatcher’s valley. 2nd, Cultivation refers to the Nightwatcher as her daughter, a relationship never mentioned by the Stormfather. 3rd, didn’t the Stormfather explicitly say that the Nightwatcher is not one of the siblings? Cultivation's perpendicularity is in the Horneater Peaks. That does not necessarily have to be connected to the Spren. The Stormfather does not refute that the Nightwatcher is one of the three. And by implication he acknowledged that she is one of the three. Quote “Yes, you’ve said. The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”There is … a third sibling. They are not with us. We also have this WoB, which added to the evidence in book all but guarantees she is a Bondsmith spren aligned with Cultivation. Quote Questioner Is Cultivation the same thing as the Nightwatcher? Brandon Sanderson They are related but they are not exactly the same. It's more like the similarity between the Stormfather and Honor. source 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrikerEZ Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, Fire&Water said: Regardless of wether the gods are the shards or the Spren, I have two problems with the Nightwatcher being the Spren of Cultivation. 1st of all, Rock and Szeth both indicate that Cultivation’s Spren is in the Horneater peaks, not the Nightwatcher’s valley. 2nd, Cultivation refers to the Nightwatcher as her daughter, a relationship never mentioned by the Stormfather. 3rd, didn’t the Stormfather explicitly say that the Nightwatcher is not one of the siblings? The Stormfather said the Nightwatcher is not Cultivation, not that she isn't one of the siblings. And we know for a fact that the Nightwatcher is to Cultivation as the Stormfather as to Honor. And @Calderis beat me to it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire&Water Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 51 minutes ago, Calderis said: Cultivation's perpendicularity is in the Horneater Peaks. That does not necessarily have to be connected to the Spren. Szeth says in OB that there is a godlike Spren in the Peaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Fire&Water said: Szeth says in OB that there is a godlike Spren in the Peaks. The only references to "spren" of any type connected to a search for the word "peaks" are from Rock, or the Diagramists speaking of Moelach having settled there. Do you know what chapter it's in? Edited July 10, 2018 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire&Water Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 106 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 30 minutes ago, Fire&Water said: 106 I've read through all of ch. 106 and the only thing I can find that you could be referencing is the last line of this paragraph. Quote “It’s in the local language. I don’t know the script, aboshi.” The divine honorific was his best guess of how to address one of the Heralds, though among his people it had been reserved for the great spren of the mountains. Considering that we're speaking about the Shin, I highly doubt this has anything to do with the Horneater peaks specifically. I think it's referencing spren of the mountains that surround Shinovar itself. They don't leave Shinovar. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Investor Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Szeth's comment is about the Spren of(not in) the Mountains. I suspect he may be referring to the Sibling, although there could be other large spren in the mountains. As for the relationship between the Nightmother and Cultivation, one theory (one I agree with) is that the three great spren, SF NM and Sibling, all existed prior to the arrival of the shards. After H&C arrived, Honor adopted the SF as his champion/instrument/child and Culti did the same for the Nightwatcher. So the Nightwatcher would be the adopted daughter of Cultivation, perhaps even modified from her original form. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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