Forms, The Last Legion, and the Rhythms

[Calderis]

This idea started for me during the sample chapters, it's evolved some to include more so I wished to expand what I started here. Much of what's in the old thread will be repeat here, but I think I've fleshed it out more for (hopefully) a different and more in depth discussion. 

The Forms

I believe that the singers are born without a spren bond. This would mean that they are born without a "form" but have a base physiology that is unaltered by a Spren. This is not Dullform, but something distinct. I base this on the following words from Eshonai and Venli's mother in Words of Radiance

Quote

“Child!” Mother said as Eshonai approached. Solid despite her years, Mother had a neat round face and wore her hairstrands in a braid, tied with a ribbon. Eshonai had brought her that ribbon from a meeting with the Alethi years ago. “Child, have you seen your sister? It is her day of first transformation! We need to prepare her.”

-snip-

“Mother,” Eshonai said to Supplication, “why did we leave the dark home?”
“Ah, now that’s an old song, Eshonai,” Mother said. “A dark song, not for a child like you. Why, it’s not even your day of first transformation.”
“I’m old enough, Mother. Please?”

This implies a coming of age ceremony in which a listener went into the storms to bond a spren for the first time.

So I believe that this lack of form, or "Birthform" is the natural unbonded state of a singer. I think that this is the form that we see in the Singers that were healed by the Everstorm.

I find it highly suspicious that we are never once shown a child of the listeners. The first time we see a child of the singer race is Sah's daughter, in the same form as all of the other restored Parsh. These seems to be an obfuscation to me. 

Next we have Dullform. It appears through the text that when a singer enters the storm to adopt a form, each Form is tied to a specific spren. Hence the search for creation Spren, and hopefully, Artform. If this is the case, why is Dullform an expected result of experimenting with new spren? 

Quote

“This could change the world, Bila,” Eshonai said. “If Venli is right, and she can bond with this spren and come out with anything other than dullform . . . well, at the very least we will have an entirely new form to choose. At the greatest we will have power to control the storms and tap their energy.”

I believe that Dullform is not a true "form" but a protective mechanism. When the Spren enters into the gemheart, I think that it merges with the spiritweb in a specific location, integrating into the Spiritual Aspect to alter the Physical form and thought process of the Singer, but only if the Spren is a viable option for a form. 

In the event that the Spren is not viable I think dullform occurs. The portion of the spiritweb that normally integrates with the Spren instead retracts, resulting in a dormant portion of their Spiritual aspect. This dulls the rhythms, reduces Cognitive function, and pushes them into a "form" very similar to another we've seen. 

Slaveform, or the Parshmen, also have reduced Cognitive function, and are completely incapable of bonding with spren or detecting the rhythms. I believe that this is because the same portion of the Spiritual Aspect that integrates with the Spren in a proper form, or retracts in Dullform, is fully excised. The physical similarities between Slaveform and Dullform are not coincidence. They appear similar because they are both nearly the same thing. Dullform is just more complete Spiritually. 

The Last Legion 

The group of Singers that became the listeners were a part of the "Last Legion." a group that now seems to have been composed of Regals, connected to Ba-Ado-Mishram to gain Voidlight in the false desolation, and Mateforms out of necessity. 

Quote

The songs left out so much. The Last Legion hadn’t known how to transform into anything other than dullform and mateform, at least not without the help of the gods.

And with the knowledge of those two Non-Voidforms, a group from the Last Legion adopted Dullform to escape their gods, inadvertently saving themselves from the excision forced on the rest of their race. 

Quote

“Daring was the challenge made,” Mother sang, “when the Last Legion abandoned thought and power in exchange for freedom. They risked forgetting all. And so songs they composed, a hundred stories to tell, to remember. I tell them to you, and you will tell them to your children, until the forms are again discovered.”

I believe this was possible precisely because of the protective mechanism of Dullform. The spiritweb retracts, and the connection that BAM had forged with them all through the use of the Voidforms was also withdrawn. Whatever Melishi attempted that imprisoned BAM and simultaneously crippled every other living singer, was unable to reach out and excise the Spiritual Aspects of those in Dullform. To this use of the Surges, just as to a non-viable spren, that section of the spiritweb was already gone. 

The Rhythms

In the Slaveform singers, the rhythms are completely absent. I belive that this is because the portion that was excised and integrates with spren is the exact same piece of the spiritweb that allows for the rhythms to be detected.

In Slaveform, it is absent. In Dullform they are diminished. In a true form, they are filtered through the Spren, in the variety that we have always seen listeners sense them. In a Voidform, they are altered by the investiture that has corrupted the Spren. 

I think this is why all of the "new" rhythms are tinged with anger and disgust. They are the old rhythms, twisted into something hateful. 

Quote

She continued to climb down the wall of stone, followed by Demid, her once-mate, and a group of her loyal friends. In her mind she attuned the Rhythm of Command—a similar, yet more powerful version of the Rhythm of Appreciation. Every one of her people could hear the rhythms—beats with some tones attached—yet she no longer heard the old, common ones. Only these new, superior rhythms.

To attune one of the rhythms that are familiar to the original forms is difficult for someone in a Voidform, and the majority of the time that we see Venli do it is in the presence of Timbre, making me think that her proto-bond may have helped to diminish the influence of the Voidspren in her gemheart. 

That's it for now. Tell me your thoughts. Tear it apart. Discuss. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Calderis

[Leyrann]

I agree for the most part, but there's one thing. Didn't the listeners abandon their gods directly, strongly implying they did so before Aharietam, when the Fused were still around?

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Slaveform, or the Parshmen, also have reduced Cognitive function, and are completely incapable of bonding with spren or detecting the rhythms. I believe that this is because the same portion of the Spiritual Aspect that integrates with the Spren in a proper form, or retracts in Dullform, is fully excised. The physical similarities between Slaveform and Dullform are not coincidence. They appear similar because they are both nearly the same thing. Dullform is just more complete Spiritually. 

 

This was my take on it as well. The parshmen in Slaveform seem to have been stripped of their spiritual identity. This is, as you said, achieved by an excision of the spiritweb. Dullform mimicking Slaveform to a less extreme extent supports your argument that Dullform is only a partial excision of the spiritweb.

 

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And with the knowledge of those two Non-Voidforms, a group from the Last Legion adopted Dullform to escape their gods, inadvertently saving themselves from the excision forced on the rest of their race

The partial excision of the spiritweb as a protective mechanism against unwillingly bonding a voidspren makes sense.

 

18 minutes ago, Calderis said:

To attune one of the rhythms that are familiar to the original forms is difficult for someone in a Voidform, and the majority of the time that we see Venli do it is in the presence of Timbre, making me think that her proto-bond may have helped to diminish the influence of the Voidspren in her gemheart. 

A nahel bond fills cracks in the spiritweb so Venli's bond with Timbre is likely acting as a shield against the Voidspren integrating with her spiritweb. This would also put Venli in a tough spot as if she were to break her nahel bond through not following her ideals she would be exposed to a hostile takeover by the Voidspren. 

Edit: I just realised that this mechanism could allow a more peaceful resolution to the human-singer conflict. Jasnah proposes committing genocide as then the voidspren would have no Hosts. However, converting the parshmen into Radiants would have a similar effect and may be a large part of Venli's character arc next book.

Edited July 1, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers

[Calderis]

8 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I agree for the most part, but there's one thing. Didn't the listeners abandon their gods directly, strongly implying they did so before Aharietam, when the Fused were still around?

I don't think the word gods refers only to the Fused. I think the Unmade and Odium are included in that term as well. 

If it was before Aharietiam, I find it much more likely that Odium and the Fused would have just killed off a bunch of dullforms for disobedience. Flight and hiding seem far less possible in those circumstances. 

[MountainKing]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

So I believe that this lack of form, or "Birthform" is the natural unbonded state of a singer. I think that this is the form that we see in the Singers that were healed by the Everstorm.. 

The Parshmen assumed forms directly after being healed, Venli mentioned that the Parshmen has many different forms when she sees them in one chapter.

[Steeldancer]

This is more or less what I was thinking, but a lot better worded. I’m pretty sure the last legion left during the False Desolation. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

The Parshmen assumed forms directly after being healed, Venli mentioned that the Parshmen has many different forms when she sees them in one chapter.

We don't see Venli's perspective until after multiple Everstorms, and the highstorms have restarted, and her first interlude doesn't mention them at all. 

By the time that we see them from her perspective of course they're in new forms. The form that they are put into has never been named, and we haven't seen it before or since. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

believe that Dullform is not a true "form" but a protective mechanism. When the Spren enters into the gemheart, I think that it merges with the spiritweb in a specific location, integrating into the Spiritual Aspect to alter the Physical form and thought process of the Singer, but only if the Spren is a viable option for a form. 

I have always wondered why the listeners were not effected by the Binding of Slaveform? This seems a solid reason why ? I previously assumed it was due to the fact the Singers were all in one area and that everyone inside that area was effected. I firgured the Listeners were far away in the Unbroken Hills. I also think your theory needs to consider the fact this was an instantaneous event . When the ancient bondsmith imprisoned BAM the transformation went out planet wide. As the Parsh had children they were locked into that form as a result of that. As the listeners had children they didn’t have to stay in dullform. This was a conscious choice for 2 reasons. They were scared of opening themselves up to forms of power as this would allow the Fused to enter their bodies during the next desolation. And 2, I would dullform cause them to forget many forms of power due to not using them. They probably stayed in dullform for centuries. The songs that were created to remember the different forms are a clue to this. As we see later on the listeners with Ulim help were able to become Regals and adopt Stormform. If they could adopt that form of power they could theoretically adopt then all. They had just forgotten to do so. I must say that Cultivation could of helped the Listerners and showed them forms of power like Ulim did. This would of greatly weakened Odium. The Listeners only turned to Odium by accident. Ulim was able to trick them by offering a form of power that he knew they would find intoxicating and feel the need to summon the Everstorm in a last ditch defense to stop the humans. Ask yourself would Venli have turned to Stormform and presented it to the 5 if she had knowledge of other forms of Power.: Like Envoyform, or other defensive forms of power like the form that can lightweave. Eshonai, Venli, and the Five failed.to see the danger of Stormform. So why with all Cultivation foresigh, whyt did she do nothing to help the Singers?

Edited July 1, 2018 by SzethIsBadAsHell

[Calderis]

37 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I also think your theory needs to consider the fact this was an instantaneous event . When the ancient bondsmith imprisoned BAM the transformation went out planet wide.

It does. Those who became the listeners had to have already adopted Dullform to be protected from a one time event, with lasting effects. 

37 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

They probably stayed in dullform for centuries.

They did, because as the quote says, the only forms the last Legion knew were Voidforms, Mateform, and Dullform. 

You refer to "forms of power" many times and talk of them like they come from other sources than Odium. 

A "Form of power" like Envoyform, is a red eyed form. They are from Voidspren. 

Cultivation didn't offer these types of forms because she's not interested in controlling the singers. Cultivation is about directed growth, but that growth happens from the subject. It's the difference between teaching someone a skill, and stepping in and doing it instead of them.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Calderis

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It does. Those who became the listeners had to have already adopted Dullform to be protected from a one time event, with lasting effects. 

They did, because as the quote says, the only forms the last Legion knew were Voidforms, Mateform, and Dullform. 

You refer to "forms of power" many times and talk of them like they come from other sources than Odium. 

A "Form of power" like Envoyform, is a red eyed form. They are from Voidspren. 

Cultivation didn't offer these types of forms because she's not interested in controlling the singers. Cultivation is about directed growth, but that growth happens from the subject. It's the difference between teaching someone a skill, and stepping in and doing it instead of them.

That’s a good point. Honestly I thought since the Singers had forgotten so many forms I assumed they had forms of power that were not Passion based, and did not come from Odium. It’s such a good point I’m give you an upvote (people are stingy upvotes on this sight) . It is easy to overlook that issue. I think you just figured out why the Singers turned to Odium in the first place. If all they had were the common forms before then; and Odium offered them to be so much more, why not?  Question I have is why is Odium so invested in destroying the humans on Roshar. In the past he would go to a planet , destroy the shard, and move on. Why is he so actively involving himself. Humans on Sel wasn’t threatened by Odium. He splintered Devotion and Domination I believe their. He splintered Ambition; were the humans of that planet ravaged like on Roshar?

[MountainKing]

7 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

That’s a good point. Honestly I thought since the Singers had forgotten so many forms I assumed they had forms of power that were not Passion based, and did not come from Odium. It’s such a good point I’m give you an upvote (people are stingy upvotes on this sight) . It is easy to overlook that issue. I think you just figured out why the Singers turned to Odium in the first place. If all they had were the common forms before then; and Odium offered them to be so much more, why not?  Question I have is why is Odium so invested in destroying the humans on Roshar. In the past he would go to a planet , destroy the shard, and move on. Why is he so actively involving himself. Humans on Sel wasn’t threatened by Odium. He splintered Devotion and Domination I believe their. He splintered Ambition; were the humans of that planet ravaged like on Roshar?

Odium killed Honor, but before he killed Honor, Honor binded Odium's mind to the Rosharan system, because Honor it now dead only the Stormfather, the spren that holds Tanavast's cognitive shadow, can free him. The Stormfather is a spren who doesn't change so he will never free Odium, but if a Stormfather were to bond a human, and the human says sufficient amount of oaths then the human can free Odium on Tanavast's behalf. 

Basically Odium is attacking Roshar, so that he can force the Stormfather's hand, which would lead to creating someone that Odium can influence to create a senario where he can freed. It's just like how Ruin could only break out of prison with Persavation's power, Odium needs Honor or someone holding Honor's power to release the binding.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

1 minute ago, MountainKing said:

Odium killed Honor, but before he killed Honor, Honor binded Odium's mind to the Rosharan system, because Honor it now dead only the Stormfather, the spren that holds Tanavast's cognitive shadow, can free him. The Stormfather is a spren who doesn't change so he will never free Odium, but if a Stormfather were to bond a human, and the human says sufficient amount of oaths then the human can free Odium on Tanavast's behalf. 

Basically Odium is attacking Roshar, so that he can force the Stormfather's hand, which would lead to creating someone that Odium can influence to create a senario where he can freed. It's just like how Ruin could only break out of prison with Persavation's power, Odium needs Honor or someone holding Honor's power to release the binding.

I had a theory that ran parallel to this one , so I feel you. I believe that since Honor was dead there was no one to make decisions that Honor alone could make. For example “ Stormfather told Dalinar he was bonded to humans before and they could not open Perpindicularities. Well Honor was alive then. The Spren outside Honor perpinndicularity said that they could not let Kaladin and Syl pass. I think Dalinar has partially ascended! He can make decisions that only Honor could do. Open Honor’s perpindicularity, free Odium, agree to a contest of champions and set the stakes. Odium when speaking to Teravangion said “ Dalinar should not have been able to Ascend. 

       Regardless if I’m right or you are right this means one thing. Odium does not want Dalinar dead! He wants to control him so he can be set free! I’m aware he told Amaram to kill him , but I think that was more shock at Dalinar Resisting him when he was so Confident he had turned Dalinar. He had been grooming Dalinar for a long time. 

[Yeti on a settee]

So I believe Kaladin mentioned in OB that the Singers in Slaveform were bred, and so I presume the children of Slaveform are also in Slaveform. My question is why? If all Singers are born as Birthform/Formless, why are Slaveform offspring not in Birthform/Formless? Or more specifically, how does the lobotomy/retractation of a spirit web also affect the offspring's spirit web. How do they inherit this?

Does it mean that the physical Form of the parents influences the Form of the offspring?

 

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Yeti on a settee said:

So I believe Kaladin mentioned in OB that the Singers in Slaveform were bred, and so I presume the children of Slaveform are also in Slaveform. My question is why? If all Singers are born as Birthform/Formless, why are Slaveform offspring not in Birthform/Formless? Or more specifically, how does the lobotomy/retractation of a spirit web also affect the offspring's spirit web. How do they inherit this?

Does it mean that the physical Form of the parents influences the Form of the offspring?

 

In the healed singers/unaltered listeners it wouldn't. Their spiritweb were whole, and so the children would be born whole but without a spren bond in "birthform." 

For the Slaveform/Parshmen, their spiritwebs had been altered to an extent that they were unable to pass on the complete Spiritual information necessary. It was a genetic modification that was hereditary. 

[Quantus]

On 8/3/2018 at 6:10 AM, Yeti on a settee said:

So I believe Kaladin mentioned in OB that the Singers in Slaveform were bred, and so I presume the children of Slaveform are also in Slaveform. My question is why? If all Singers are born as Birthform/Formless, why are Slaveform offspring not in Birthform/Formless? Or more specifically, how does the lobotomy/retractation of a spirit web also affect the offspring's spirit web. How do they inherit this?

Does it mean that the physical Form of the parents influences the Form of the offspring?

 

Not the forms themselves, but the ability (or imposed Inability) to take a form at all.  The spiritual equivalent of a genetic mutation, it was an alteration of the sDNA.

 

EDIT:

To the OP, I very much like it, it all fits with how I was envisioning things. I have one thing to offer, not a counter so much as an alternate interpretation:  According to this WOB, the Rhythms represent "a direct connection to the spiritual realm", and as you say the indication is that in any true-form that Rhythm is being filtered through (facilitated by?) the Spren they've bonded; this Connection to the Spiritual is what facilitates/regulates the Forms.  Unlike any of the other forms though, the Rhythms are entirely absent in the Slaveform. 

So what if the Slave-form is the result of an inter-realmic block/amputation similar to what turned Scadrians into Mistwraiths.  The DullForm, then, would not quite be an active self-defense mechanism, so much as the natural result not having a spren that resonates with a given Rhythm strong enough to forge the realmic bond that would support the transition to a new form (more or less the issue you get when burning improperly mixed alloys on Scadrial. 

Further, this could mean the theorized "birthform" is what the Singers are in their "pre-Snapped" state, when their spirit-webs are still Whole and do not require any external pieces to allow them fully functional Sentience; however the process of their First Transformation is the event where their Spiritweb is sufficiently rent to allow the Bond, after which they require that supplemental Spren or else they cannot maintain themselves.  I know we've seen almost nothing of Singer children, but if Im right then I suspect they do not hear the Rythms at all until their First Transformation. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Quantus
Added a theory

[Calderis]

36 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Further, this could mean the theorized "birthform" is what the Singers are in their "pre-Snapped" state, when their spirit-webs are still Whole and do not require any external pieces to allow them fully functional Sentience; however the process of their First Transformation is the event where their Spiritweb is sufficiently rent to allow the Bond, after which they require that supplemental Spren or else they cannot maintain themselves.  I know we've seen almost nothing of Singer children, but if Im right then I suspect they do not hear the Rythms at all until their First Transformation. 

That would require their natural form to be different than the one the Singers were returned to. 

They didn't understand them, or speak to them, but there are hints that they were able to hear the rhythms. 

[Quantus]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That would require their natural form to be different than the one the Singers were returned to. 

They didn't understand them, or speak to them, but there are hints that they were able to hear the rhythms. 

Hmm, interesting, if the healed can still hear something of the Rhythms then it means they have some amount of functional connection to the Spiritual Realm.  That might still work, in the sense that if the First Transformation is an equivalent event to Snapping, then it would follow that it would not be Healed away any more than Gold Compounding repairs the Snap on Scadrial. But that would also imply that there is both a...Child-form(?) that is their natural larval state pre-Transformation as well as a "lost" natural-form that is what they'd be if they were allowed to mature to full adulthood without ever being broken to allow for bonding of a spren.  If all this proves correct would be something they havent actually seen or allowed in generations, possibly even pre-shards. 

 

[Corax]

On 6/30/2018 at 11:45 PM, Calderis said:

In the Slaveform singers, the rhythms are completely absent.

I could be wrong, but I could swear that in The Way of Kings, someone (I think Shallan) thinks to themselves about how they have noticed Parshmen who seemed to be humming the same songs even though they weren't within hearing range of one another. That would suggest either that slaveform Parsh do hear a little bit of at least one Rhythm, or that those particular Parshmen were in fact Dullform spies.

[Julio]

9 minutes ago, Corax said:

I could be wrong, 

You are. That was someone's (Gavilar's?) observation about the Listeners, who they had just met. 

[Corax]

Ah, that makes sense. I'm re-listening to the book now, but it's admittedly been a while. 

 

Eta: no need to be rude, though. :-/

Edited August 13, 2018 by Corax

[Yeti on a settee]

On 03/08/2018 at 4:48 AM, Calderis said:

In the healed singers/unaltered listeners it wouldn't. Their spiritweb were whole, and so the children would be born whole but without a spren bond in "birthform." 

For the Slaveform/Parshmen, their spiritwebs had been altered to an extent that they were unable to pass on the complete Spiritual information necessary. It was a genetic modification that was hereditary. 

 

Thanks:). After posting I had a think about it and yes, if the spirit web is changed it makes sense for the Listeners to change. The spirit web is the person, filtered through the cognitive into the physical, so it makes sense that if the spirit is changed, this would cascade down into the physical, in a genetic way.

Crackpot theory here but... This makes me think. Could this mean that Listeners spirit web consist of a large amount of investure, and so are all Savants? Spiritual alterations can be passed down genetically so shouldn't savant-like traits also be genetic?

So, how I view the Unmade as symbiotic, they take something from a being while giving something back to said being. I believe Calderis theory, and how BAM works is to give access to the forms of power, but as a result takes/feeds off the spiritweb itself, so that when BAM was captured, it took the invensture with it. And if the Listeners are savant-like, could this be why they became SlaveForm, the investure taken was a large part of their souls. Dullform could have protected them because a spren is typically needed to "access" inventure. So if I add to calderis original theory, the purpose of a spren for Listeners is to access investure encoded their spirit web, and dullform is a result of a spren that cannot allow Listeners to do this properly. This could explain why dullform survived?

Is one of the purposes of the Everstorm a way to replace to replace this investure?

I have used a lot of conjecture here without evidence so I apolagise in advance!

[Brgst13]

OK, here's my thoughts on Dullform vs. Slaveform,

In order to take on a form, a spren has to "fit" into the Spiritweb of its host.  The area where this fit occurs is similar to a receptor on our cells.  When the Bondsmith imprisoned BAM, part of the imprisoning involved removing this receptor from the Parsh sDNA.  Therefore, the receptor is absent in the offspring as well.  In Dullform, however, there is no spren in the receptor, but the receptor is still viable.  Therefore, they can bind a spren and take on forms.  Make sense?