[OB] Love Triangle Revisited (poll included)

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Too be fair, they're usually done far more poorly in reality. 

I wish this weren't so true . I've seen too many toxic love triangles in real life for one lifetime..

[goody153]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:14 PM, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I wish this weren't so true . I've seen too many toxic love triangles in real life for one lifetime..

I still think love triangle that is done well theoretically possible(i haven't read alot of romance novels or just subplots to encounter one that is good) but i don't even have faith that Sanderson could do it (well i didn't care about Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin nor did i care about the Mistborn love trios).

Wish somebody would make one tho or point me to one made well (i know it's seeing some literary work being done well is a subjective thing but i'd like to read something that is generally considered as done well)

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

19 minutes ago, goody153 said:

I still think love triangle that is done well theoretically possible(i haven't read alot of romance novels or just subplots to encounter one that is good) but i don't even have faith that Sanderson could do it (well i didn't care about Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin nor did i care about the Mistborn love trios).

 

I felt like the Vin/Elend/Zane love triangle created some cheap tension between Vin and Elend that I feel could have been created more effectively say through a difference in morals This is kind of explored in the aftermath of Vin butchering Cett's men but it did more or less brushed over it as a bump in the road when it could have substituted for the love triangle I my opinion.

Love triangles are one of fictions oldest tropes which is why I'm surprised that Brandon would use them frequently given his habit of turning tropes on their head. Then again, subverting tropes is itself becoming a trope so by conforming to traditional tropes you could actually be subverting tropes *points to head*.

21 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Wish somebody would make one tho or point me to one made well (i know it's seeing some literary work being done well is a subjective thing but i'd like to read something that is generally considered as done well)

Some successful examples off the top of my head are: Pride and Prejudice, Great Expectations, The Princess Bride, Gone with the Wind. Terrible love triangles tend to be more memorable than ones which are done well which makes me feel like it is an unnecessary risk from a storytelling perspective. In my experience both watching tv and reading books, love triangles seem to be poorly done more often than not as a means of creating artificial drama in the story. The decision to create a love triangle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin is probably my biggest issue with the Stormlight Archive (I have very few issues with the books in general. Seriously, I love them). Brandon has had plenty of arranged marriages before so he could have very easily had a linear betrothal between Adolin and Shallan with no need to introduce Kaladin into the mix. I'd argue that both Kaladin and Shallan are unfit for romantic relationships at their respective psychological positions in their character arcs so the rushed wedding at the end of OB felt off to me.

[Calderis he/him]

25 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

I felt like the Vin/Elend/Zane love triangle created some cheap tension between Vin and Elend that I feel could have been created more effectively say through a difference in morals

Everything about Zane is the worst things that Brandon has written. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers he/him]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Everything about Zane is the worst things that Brandon has written. 

You only need to take a brief glance at the favourite Mistborn book poll as evidence for this.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers

[elinox she/her]

On 6/26/2018 at 3:03 AM, goody153 said:

Personally i have no strong like or dislike over the love triangle of Shallan-Kaladin-Adolin. It simply was there and i was just glad Sanderson didn't turn it into a fullblown annoying lovetriangle that i often read from paranormal/urban/romance/erotica/teen novels.
...
I guess what i have to say is that i agree that romance can be great but is not necessary all the time but even when unnecessary it can be complimentary to the story if it is done right. 

This. Exactly! 

In my opinion, romances are NOT needed in most fantasy series. When they're added, they feel contrived and unnatural, like the author was trying to pander to every literary genre out there. If you want romance and love, read a romance novel, that's what they're for! I want my fantasy stories to focus on the worldbuilding and character development and weird creatures!

That said, the love triangle ending in Oathbringer was satisfying to me. It was romantic and cutesy, but not over-the-top in a way that took attention away from the main plot or the characters themselves. It was sweet and simple and the story didn't go into it too much!

[Sandra she/her]

1 hour ago, elinox said:

If you want romance and love, read a romance novel, that's what they're for! I want my fantasy stories to focus on the worldbuilding and character development and weird creatures!

Nah, I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying, if you want something funny, go read a satire. If you read an epic fantasy that should include everything magic, love, mystery, jokes and serious conversations, death, friendship, family... A good book reflects life for me and all of those a part of life.

Edited July 12, 2018 by Sandra

[elinox she/her]

2 minutes ago, Sandra said:

Nah, I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying, if you want something funny, go read a satire. If you read an epic fantasy that should include everything magic, love, mystery, jokes and serious conversations, death, friendship, family... A good book reflects life for me and all of those a part of life.

True, but you can have all of those, just as secondary themes in good fantasy. It's when one of those things gets out of control and then takes over the story when I dislike it. A little romance, like with Shallan and Adolin, is sweet and nice. But heaps of it, to the point where the main plot gets lost, like in the movie Ready Player One, makes me roll my eyes in annoyance.

A dash of romance, a pinch of humor, and a healthy heaping of action and adventure makes for good fantasy. 

[Sandra she/her]

Yeah, I get your point now.

3 minutes ago, elinox said:

But heaps of it, to the point where the main plot gets lost, like in the movie Ready Player One, makes me roll my eyes in annoyance.

Considering the main character was a teenager it was pretty realistic, ha  

[Vissy]

10 minutes ago, elinox said:

True, but you can have all of those, just as secondary themes in good fantasy. It's when one of those things gets out of control and then takes over the story when I dislike it. A little romance, like with Shallan and Adolin, is sweet and nice. But heaps of it, to the point where the main plot gets lost, like in the movie Ready Player One, makes me roll my eyes in annoyance.

A dash of romance, a pinch of humor, and a healthy heaping of action and adventure makes for good fantasy. 

That's good, then - a well-written romantic subplot does not distract from the main plot whatsoever. Unfortunately, the romantic subplot related to Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin in OB was so poorly written (or deliberately planned) as to cause a great deal more of discussion than it would have had Sanderson written it more conclusively

Edited July 12, 2018 by Vissy

[+Sorana she/her]

For me the triangle was about which path Shallan will choose. Either Kaladin encouraging her hiding and pushing away her emotions and memories or Adolin encouraging her to confront her problems.

And for me her decision between the two men was also a decision which path she then follows.

So all in all I hope this is over and she'll get her marriage to work.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

59 minutes ago, Sorana said:

For me the triangle was about which path Shallan will choose. Either Kaladin encouraging her hiding and pushing away her emotions and memories or Adolin encouraging her to confront her problems.

And for me her decision between the two men was also a decision which path she then follows.

So all in all I hope this is over and she'll get her marriage to work.

This is exactly how I feel. Adolin, even though he doesn't get it completely, understands Shallan and wants to help her. He is willing to help her solve her problems. Kaladin loved the fact that Shallan could do the one thing he was having problems with: pushing aside emotions and pain. Except, that's Shallan's whole problem. She pushes aside her pain in order to not have to think about it, but that only makes the problem worse. If Shallan and Kaladin had ended up together, they would've just exacerbated each other's problems and Shallan would've gone done a much worse path than she went down in OB. Getting married to Adolin wasn't the perfect solution, but I'd much rather read her work to make their marriage work (a much more compelling story, imo) than read a continuous downward spiral as her mental health gets worse and worse.

That's why I felt satisfied with the love triangle's resolution. Do I think the love triangle could've been handled better? Yes. But the resolution was what was needed for Shallan, even if getting married was a bit hasty.

[Angsos]

It's not over, perhaps Kaladin moved on but Shallan just sidestepped the issue. That whole having Veil and Radiant agree about Adolin won't help because she's still treating them as separate people.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 minutes ago, Angsos said:

It's not over, perhaps Kaladin moved on but Shallan just sidestepped the issue. That whole having Veil and Radiant agree about Adolin won't help because she's still treating them as separate people.

I wasn't saying her mental health issues were over. I'm just saying that I think the love triangle is over.

Shallan will definitely have to realize that all of her personas are her. She'll have to deal with her feelings for Kaladin, but I doubt she is just gonna straight up leave Adolin. It'd be far more interesting, to me at least, to see her and Adolin work to make their marriage work. It's so much more interesting to see that marriage is not a happily ever after, that there's still so much to do in a relationship after marriage. I also can't see Brandon writing a story where Shallan either leaves Adolin or cheats on him with Kaladin (who probably wouldn't want to do that to Adolin anyway).

[goody153]

3 hours ago, Angsos said:

It's not over, perhaps Kaladin moved on but Shallan just sidestepped the issue. That whole having Veil and Radiant agree about Adolin won't help because she's still treating them as separate people.

Pls no let the love triangle be over. It wasn't working out that well and there's no need to expand the nature of that situation anymore. 

Besides let Kaladin have other people. Potentially open for new ships

[+Sorana she/her]

3 hours ago, goody153 said:

Pls no let the love triangle be over. It wasn't working out that well and there's no need to expand the nature of that situation anymore. 

Besides let Kaladin have other people. Potentially open for new ships

I absolutely support this. I also think that Kaladin needs someone ese who helps him to solce his problems and not has too many of her own.

With Shallan I think it is possible that they enhance the problems the other has and in the end it's a Spiral downwards for both of them.

[Solant he/him]

I'm indifferent. I think it was presented as a minor conflict so we would feel like their marriage was earned, and it's over now. I also think that with it hinted that Tarah is in Urithiru now, Kaladin has other things in store for him...

[agrabes]

On 7/12/2018 at 11:56 PM, Sorana said:

I absolutely support this. I also think that Kaladin needs someone ese who helps him to solce his problems and not has too many of her own.

With Shallan I think it is possible that they enhance the problems the other has and in the end it's a Spiral downwards for both of them.

I would say it's possible they would increase each other's problems, but that doesn't necessarily follow from what has been shown in the books so far.

The whole misunderstanding toward the end of OB only happened because they have had limited time to actually talk to each other about their feelings and what they are currently going through.  Kaladin doesn't know what Shallan's problem is so he makes a mistake in giving her advice about it.  He sees the way she (outwardly) seems to be totally happy and flourishing despite being the only person outside the bridge crews he knows who has had a life as hard as his and thinks that her key to success must be her ability to ignore or bury her feelings.  She never tells him her deeper emotions because she feels it's inappropriate for her to do so - with her being engaged to Adolin and wanting to stay faithful to him.

My point in all this is that if you wiped the slate clean and set up the scenarios differently where Shallan and Kaladin were able to get emotionally close, he would know and understand where Shallan was coming from and wouldn't make the same mistake.  I think we need to be clear that the mistake Kaladin made wasn't due to a character flaw, it was due to a lack of knowledge.  

[Razrback16]

By the end of OB, I was quite pleased - I found Shallan's pov entries to be quite tedious and annoying in OB and by the end, her character was annoying me quite a bit. Kaladin is my favorite character by far and I'm hopeful at this point that he's completely done with Shallan and ready to move on to someone else. Very interested in finding out more about Tarah in future books, and seeing his interactions with Jasnah.