Let's talk about Kaladin's attitude in WoR.

[Chrono]

From a person who experienced depression, Kaladin's story arc is painfully accurate. Sure, you may have been frustrated with him. Sure, it may have been boring to read. Sure, it's repetitive. But it's also realistic. My mother has told me time and time again (she's a mental health counselor) that relapse is part of the healing process. Addicts go through relapse. Emotionally sensitive people go through relapse. Depressed people go through relapse.

 

Kaladin goes through relapse too. And it's wonderfully done. I was frustrated with him a lot, but I was also frustrated with myself during depression. And to be honest, if I'd have been in his shoes, I'd have done exactly what he would have done. Including becoming suspicious of others, unwilling to listen to advice, and harboring a rather dangerous sense of vengeance and justice. We often forget just the sheer amount of crap that fantasy characters go through on a normal basis. A lot of them just shrug it off, and I hate it when they do that. Have your best friend killed off? Oh well, at least I'm alive. Have your love interest shot? Eh, she wasn't that great anyway. Get made a slave and get regularly beaten and abused? This will be a great learning experience! And so on.

 

Kaladin is annoying, frustrating, and makes you want to claw your face off because he's acting like a normal person. We often forget that when we read fantasy, because characters struggle with these sort of problems all the time in the same manner that they struggle with schoolwork. Kaladin is a real twenty year old who has had his brother killed, been sold into slavery, made to run bridgeruns, and generally had a life made of crap. And he reacts with anger, frustration, sorrow, and rage. And it's amazing.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Angst is annoying to read partially because it's annoying, but also because it's used to drag the plot out.  If having the characters talk to each other would resolve the plot immediately, then it some authors add artificial barriers to prevent that resolution.  But Kaladin's problems aren't artificial - they're a major component of his character.  So while it's frustrating, it doesn't have the double whammy of being frustrating and fake at the same time.

[Mistdork]

From a person who experienced depression, Kaladin's story arc is painfully accurate. Sure, you may have been frustrated with him. Sure, it may have been boring to read. Sure, it's repetitive. But it's also realistic. My mother has told me time and time again (she's a mental health counselor) that relapse is part of the healing process. Addicts go through relapse. Emotionally sensitive people go through relapse. Depressed people go through relapse.

 

Kaladin goes through relapse too. And it's wonderfully done. I was frustrated with him a lot, but I was also frustrated with myself during depression. And to be honest, if I'd have been in his shoes, I'd have done exactly what he would have done. Including becoming suspicious of others, unwilling to listen to advice, and harboring a rather dangerous sense of vengeance and justice. We often forget just the sheer amount of crap that fantasy characters go through on a normal basis. A lot of them just shrug it off, and I hate it when they do that. Have your best friend killed off? Oh well, at least I'm alive. Have your love interest shot? Eh, she wasn't that great anyway. Get made a slave and get regularly beaten and abused? This will be a great learning experience! And so on.

 

Kaladin is annoying, frustrating, and makes you want to claw your face off because he's acting like a normal person. We often forget that when we read fantasy, because characters struggle with these sort of problems all the time in the same manner that they struggle with schoolwork. Kaladin is a real twenty year old who has had his brother killed, been sold into slavery, made to run bridgeruns, and generally had a life made of crap. And he reacts with anger, frustration, sorrow, and rage. And it's amazing.

 

See, I think it's more annoying to people who don't suffer from depression like that. It's a little hard for us to understand because we're not prone to bouts of depression. I was annoyed at Kaladin. I knew it was realistic but I was deeply annoyed with how long it took to get some sense into him... Even more so when he demanded a duel against Amaram; here's a smart fellow asking to fight and not giving it a second thought! Oh, was it logical? Sure, but it was just so...utterly stupid at the same time and quite, quite human.

 

That said, everyone annoyed me in this book at one point or another. Dalinar because he's sometimes a poor judge of character. Adolin for having his...brat like issues. Shallan when she made her comment about historians being liars (okay, this one's just silly). But everyone had their moments. Well written characters, you could say, are not ideals. Otherwise it wouldn't be as good as a series, it invokes emotion and that's wonderful.

[Daishi5]

What would you like to have read instead?

 

Renarin would have been nice.  We know something new and strange has been going on there, while Kaladin's story does feel like it was the same story arc again with some nice new details.  

[Elena]

Cant quote properly - i'm on my mobile. That said:

That said, everyone annoyed me in this book at one point or another. Dalinar because he's sometimes a poor judge of character. Adolin for having his...brat like issues. Shallan when she made her comment about historians being liars (okay, this one's just silly).

But historians *are* liars. Most people sympathize with one side or the other and want it to look good - I took Latin lit in school and stil remember how amusing it was that pretty much every author had his own version. Then went to study abroad and, comparing, I was almost indignant at how some books glossed over things to make their country look better.
I had a good laugh at that Shallan line because it's so true, and so hilarious.

 

ETA: spelling

Edited March 25, 2014 by _Elena

[taliefer]

Kaladin was frustrating to read at times, but i think it would have been far more jarring for kaladin to just magically become "The Hero" after book 1. rescuing Dalinar should not have fixed all his deep seeded issues, and im glad it didnt. it would have felt far more forced than any backslide did.

 

that said...i honestly did come close to putting the book down in disgust a few times. but the payoff was just so, so worth it. looking back on it i think it was masterful.

[+eveorjoy]

Renarin would have been nice.  We know something new and strange has been going on there, while Kaladin's story does feel like it was the same story arc again with some nice new details.

Let me clarify. How would you have wanted Kaladin to act in WoR?

[Chrono]

 

 

That said, everyone annoyed me in this book at one point or another. Dalinar because he's sometimes a poor judge of character. Adolin for having his...brat like issues. Shallan when she made her comment about historians being liars (okay, this one's just silly). But everyone had their moments. Well written characters, you could say, are not ideals. Otherwise it wouldn't be as good as a series, it invokes emotion and that's wonderful.

 

Historians all have their different views, mainly because they all have different goals. I have two different textbooks on American History, and they can be startlingly different at times (criticism of different presidents, opinions on political movements, etc). Not only that, but every country has their own version of what happened. Pearl Harbor according to Americans is a travesty that should never have happened and was a brutal violent attack. To the Japanese, it was justified because the Americans were ruining their economy and they had to fight back. I've overly simplified the arguments, but you get the gist. Historians all have their own opinions and justifications for why things happened.

 

[bookspren]

I'm with the OP on this. Yes, Kaladin was incredibly frustrating at times. I mean, really, thinking Bridge 4 would be happier with him out of the way? At the same time, it was very in character and perfectly understandable. Like others have pointed out, Kaladin's life has been the opposite of easy.

I was floored when he opened up to Dalinar so early in the book. I was furious when Dalinar went ahead and made Amaram a KR anyway. If I hadn't had the Dalinar POVs in TWoK, I would have been doubting him too.

Similarly, I cheered when Kaladin told Moash he wanted nothing to do with the assasins, but I understood his uncertainty over Elhokar deserving it. The moping was necessary. If Kaladin always made the right choice easily, he wouldn't be relatable. It's so much more enjoyable (and causes an lot more yelling, hair-pulling-out, etc) when I see the hero grapple with the tough questions and come out stronger.

When he said the third ideal, it felt so right, so triumphant. I thought it was perfect.

[vandalhearts]

Finally someone said what I wanted to say!

I agree with you completely OP, his mistakes and failures make him much more relateable. His story was much more enjoybale for me than Shallan for example, who didn't make any mistakes and had far too few challenges in this book IMO.

[+eveorjoy]

His story was much more enjoybale for me than Shallan for example, who didn't make any mistakes and had far too few challenges in this book IMO.

 

Shallan made mistakes and is very flawed. Some have called her a Mary Sue, but I disagree. I think she is an extremely talented liar, even to herself. Especially to herself. It's not that everyone loves hers. Everyone loves the person she shows them. The only person she somewhat showed herself to was Kaladin, and she only showed him the person she believed she was. 

 

Personally, I enjoyed Shallan in WoR. Her goals were more big picture and connected to the overall plot. I understand why some have issues with her character arc. Her issues with the Ghostbloods weren't resolved. After she sneaked into see Taln, the Ghostbloods disappeared until the end and that was the only solo plot line she had. Everything else she did was connected to one of the other main characters.

 

Still, it didn't bother me, because she did have some growth in the end of the book. I think Kaladin had far more growth, but that is nether here nor there.

[Dru]

There was a lot that was realy frustation about Kaladin and his arc. Other then it was to long drawn out. Some of this I beleve tie in to what we as a reader want to read and what Fantasy is to us.

 

Kaladins arc in wor: Yes it was realistic. Yes Brandon did an amasing job to write a "true" character but the question for me is is this something I want to read? And the asnwer is quite simply No. And I truly hope that Brandon is done with this depression/repeeting stuff now. I am actually kind of amazed on one thing though. Kaladin is supposadly a bright character, there is suppoast to be a head on his shoulders and not only an "angry" face. And not once do we she him stop and question/analyze himself and what is going on around him. We always she him eather running after someone or mopping.

 

For me the asnwer to the question:

 

Let me clarify. How would you have wanted Kaladin to act in WoR?

 

I wish al of Kaladins worth of "progression" in WoR would be done half way through the book. He could even have done the 3ed ideal there, maybe figgure it out while he was in the cell and had time for reflections instead of mopping. That would have been much more satisfying to read then a almoast compleate rip-off from the second ideal scen in tWoK (it was cool the first time not so much the second) and would actually symbolice some character progression. After that we could have seen some more interaction with the bridgmen, I know training men only give that much story but atleast something more from them then what is in WoR today. A vissit to Lopens family that would be promption his idea to drop the king of there. More of Kaladin and Sly moments now that he have reaceh the third ideal and better understand his oaths maybe he could have some propper chats with Sly again instead of just what he beleve is right and she tells him is wong.

 

That was just from the top of my head what could have been but in essence WoR for me lacks character progression for Kaladin and scens of him that are more diverged and not this singel-mindedness we have.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Dru

[Aleksiel]

Kaladins arc in wor: Yes it was realistic. Yes Brandon did an amasing job to write a "true" character but the question for me is is this something I want to read? And the asnwer is quite simply No. And I truly hope that Brandon is done with this depression/repeeting stuff now. I am actually kind of amazed on one thing though. Kaladin is supposadly a bright character, there is suppoast to be a head on his shoulders and not only an "angry" face. And not once do we she him stop and question/analyze himself and what is going on around him. We always she him eather running after someone or mopping.

 

You've never been depressed I assume? One just can't be rational at such time. I find it refreshing to have this realism in Kal's story arc, but of course you have your own preferences. I thought it was nice to see someone dealing with serious inner issues and only conflicts from outside, even though I pulled my hair in frustration at times, but I enjoyed it anyway. 

 

 

 

He could even have done the 3ed ideal there, maybe figgure it out while he was in the cell and had time for reflections instead of mopping. 

 

'So, he Elhokar put me in prison like any lighteyes I've ever hated would have done, he's the reason for my family's misfortunes, he didn't even stop to think I might have been right in my accusations, instead he almost executed me on a whim. But I have two blankets and my chamber pot is changed regularly, so I got this going on for me which is nice. So, I'm gonna protect him from my almost only friend who's been with me through Damnation itself.'

 

Better? 

[kaellok]

Let me clarify. How would you have wanted Kaladin to act in WoR?

 

If the depression, anger, fear, and backpedaling of progress that he'd made was necessary (and for which so many of you have made such persuasive arguments saying that it is, so I'm not arguing that it wasn't) then to have presented it to us in a different way--so that he wasn't just retreading what had already happened.  More meaningful interactions between him and Syl and members of Bridge 4 who didn't happen to be named Moash would gone a long way to alleviating this, I think.  A character arc that's not boiled down to "Learn to trust in myself and my friends, even though I did that once already" would have as well.

 

I still like Kaladin; I still think that WoR was an amazing book.  But I also think that even if his characterization was realistic and apt, it didn't serve to engag me as a reader nearly as strongly as it did the first time around in WoK--and it actively broke me out of continuing my reading binge on two separate occasions (while I'm sure work was glad that I managed to scrape together the 4 hours of sleep each time, I think that's beside the point).

[Dru]

You've never been depressed I assume? One just can't be rational at such time. I find it refreshing to have this realism in Kal's story arc, but of course you have your own preferences. I thought it was nice to see someone dealing with serious inner issues and only conflicts from outside, even though I pulled my hair in frustration at times, but I enjoyed it anyway. 

 

 

'So, he Elhokar put me in prison like any lighteyes I've ever hated would have done, he's the reason for my family's misfortunes, he didn't even stop to think I might have been right in my accusations, instead he almost executed me on a whim. But I have two blankets and my chamber pot is changed regularly, so I got this going on for me which is nice. So, I'm gonna protect him from my almost only friend who's been with me through Damnation itself.'

 

Better? 

 

 

Depressed? We have sesonal depression here..... try living in a place where you do not see the sun for 4 months.... it does funny things to your mods and genneral well beeing....

 

On the story arc, ofc one can not change major parts of a book and keep the stuff behind them. In the example of the prison the reason for being there in the first place have to be rewriten too to better fit the "new" story:)

 

If the depression, anger, fear, and backpedaling of progress that he'd made was necessary (and for which so many of you have made such persuasive arguments saying that it is, so I'm not arguing that it wasn't) then to have presented it to us in a different way--so that he wasn't just retreading what had already happened.  More meaningful interactions between him and Syl and members of Bridge 4 who didn't happen to be named Moash would gone a long way to alleviating this, I think.  A character arc that's not boiled down to "Learn to trust in myself and my friends, even though I did that once already" would have as well.

 

I still like Kaladin; I still think that WoR was an amazing book.  But I also think that even if his characterization was realistic and apt, it didn't serve to engag me as a reader nearly as strongly as it did the first time around in WoK--and it actively broke me out of continuing my reading binge on two separate occasions (while I'm sure work was glad that I managed to scrape together the 4 hours of sleep each time, I think that's beside the point).

 

I agree with this.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Dru

[Aleksiel]

Depressed? We have sesonal depression here..... try living in a place where you do not see the sun for 4 months.... it does funny things to your mods and genneral well beeing....

 

 

Yeah, Kaladin has seasonal depression and Elhokar put him in prison with no windows away from light and storms for three weeks. It's impressive Kal didn't kill him himself.

 

Edit: Now, I get what you're saying. But Kal was doing great at the beginning. He even confided with Dalinar about Amaram. But Dalinar seemed so indifferent, he didn't show Kal he was actually doing anything to really investigate Amaram. Storm it, he made him a KR! Of course Kaladin lost it. Still, he dealt with it in impressive manner. I was afraid he'd go for vengeance, instead all Kal wanted was justice and he tried to get it in the way he saw - challenging him to a duel. What more can you possible want from him?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Aleksiel

[+eveorjoy]

There was a lot that was realy frustation about Kaladin and his arc. Other then it was to long drawn out. Some of this I beleve tie in to what we as a reader want to read and what Fantasy is to us.

 

Kaladins arc in wor: Yes it was realistic. Yes Brandon did an amasing job to write a "true" character but the question for me is is this something I want to read? And the asnwer is quite simply No. And I truly hope that Brandon is done with this depression/repeeting stuff now. I am actually kind of amazed on one thing though. Kaladin is supposadly a bright character, there is suppoast to be a head on his shoulders and not only an "angry" face. And not once do we she him stop and question/analyze himself and what is going on around him. We always she him eather running after someone or mopping.

 

For me the asnwer to the question:

 

 

I wish al of Kaladins worth of "progression" in WoR would be done half way through the book. He could even have done the 3ed ideal there, maybe figgure it out while he was in the cell and had time for reflections instead of mopping. That would have been much more satisfying to read then a almoast compleate rip-off from the second ideal scen in tWoK (it was cool the first time not so much the second) and would actually symbolice some character progression. After that we could have seen some more interaction with the bridgmen, I know training men only give that much story but atleast something more from them then what is in WoR today. A vissit to Lopens family that would be promption his idea to drop the king of there. More of Kaladin and Sly moments now that he have reaceh the third ideal and better understand his oaths maybe he could have some propper chats with Sly again instead of just what he beleve is right and she tells him is wong.

 

That was just from the top of my head what could have been but in essence WoR for me lacks character progression for Kaladin and scens of him that are more diverged and not this singel-mindedness we have.

 

I see where you are coming from. I also hope Kaladin is over some of his Lighteyed issues. Still I disagree. You have a right to skip Kaladin's chapters if you find them too depressing, but to say that they are single minded is missing some of what is there.

 

I've never dealt with depression personally, though I have three close family members who have. I do have anxiety however. So when Kaladin is scared irrationally that the lighteyes could take his powers, I can relate. Prehaps this is the reason I find Kaladin's story appealing, compelling, and not as frustrating. Kaladin is far less frustrating to me than any of my family members who suffer from true depression. And to be honest, I don't think he has true depression. He has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which can cause both depression and anxiety, but it is not completely the same thing.

 

The story arcs in  TWoks and WoR are different and I don't see Kaladin's actions in WoR as a relapse at all. I think people assumed he had dealt with his issues and was out of that dark place in book one. I never got that impression.

 

Here is what Brandon said on this issue, at the Philadelphia sighing. Source.

 

 

Q: Kaladin in the second book seemed to be a different Kaladin than at the end of the first book.

A: What way?

Q: Angrier, and my question is, why did you write him that way?

A: He has always been angry. In the first book, he is focused on saving his men and now that his men are safe, all of those emotions--if you go look at him from the first nine chapters of Way of Kings, he's that way there, it's when he becomes focused on saving his men he has something to drive him and it kind of subsumes these things, but once they're safe all these things he hasn't dealt with came back out.

 

Book one was not about him dealing with his issues. As soon as he took on the responsibility of Bridge Four, he ignored his personal issues. Notice how he reacts to any lighteyes in that book and not just Sadeas or Amaram. He steals from Adolin after he saw Adolin defend someone selflessly. Anytime anyone mentions Dalinar he get angry. He needed a lot of encouragement to save them. He focused more on saving the men than the Princes. It was only after he realized the army wasn't leaving that he tried to get Adolin to leave. He ordered Adolin around like a petulant child and did the same to Dalinar when he finally ran off to save him. He continued to disrespect Dalinar until Dalinar offered to help the bridgemen. And then he didn't believe Dalinar would really help them until he actually gave up his shardblade. Book one was not about healing Kaladin's soul so he could become a Knights Radiant. It is about a victim finding the power to save himself and those around him because no one else would. 

 

And that of course fits with the 2nd Ideal.

 

Book two's character arc is about this:

 

“When I took over the bridgemen,” Kaladin said softly, “they were caged animals who had been beaten into submission. I brought back their fight, but they were still caged. Now the doors are off those cages. It will take time for Moash and the others to adjust.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 92). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Opening the cage does not solve all the problems. But this is not the same character arc as book one. Kaladin's arc was about two things. Learning to trust someone with power over you again. Using your own power to become what you want to be. And he did not learn these things in book one.

 

"But Dalinar traded his shardblade for Kaladin," You say, "That was when he learned he could trust again." 

 

No not really. I thought this too the first time I read the chapter "Justice" (my favorite chapter in TWoKs), until I read "Trust" a few pages later.

 

Kaladin wasn't happy. He was nervous. He didn't trust Dalinar, he merely considered doing so. He treated Dalinar with respect, the first lighteyes he does such for in the entire book, not excluding flashback chapters of course, but he wasn't sure. The arc completed with him finally succeeding in a task, not someone who is ready to be a radiant.

 

Book two Kaladin tests that small amount of trust. How much he does trust and respect Dalinar in the book is surprising and downright uplifting. He is trying so hard and yet every life experience reminds him that it could all be an act and at some point Dalinar will fail him. He knows that he can't prove what Amaram did and yet he told Dalinar shortly after he began working for him, after he found out they were life long friends. And even after he assumes Dalinar didn't believe him, he continues to trust Dalinar anyway. He allows himself to go to prison on Dalinar's word that he will get him out and continues to respect him after that, Then finally Dalinar proves he deserves Kaladin's trust by catching Amaram in his lie. I think that was the moment Kaladin truly trusted a lighteyes again. I don't think he would have cared about saving Elhokar if Dalinar had not done that.

 

Now had this been the only focus of Kaladin's character arc, I would agree it was single minded, but it wasn't.

 

Kaladin also learned to trust and care about both of Dalinar's sons and Shallan. That was surprising.

 

And that was only half of what his arc focused on. The other half was about now that he had power over his life again, who did he want to be.

 

This is where the Moash plot and the Third ideal come in to play.

 

The third ideal is not a rehash of the second, nor is the scene where Kaladin speaks it a rehash of the 2nd ideal scene in book one. Oh they are similar, they are also similar to the climax of Mistborn 1 and Elantris, The main character is near death and comes to an Epiphany that saves the day. This trope is also used in Hunger Games, several Star Trek episodes, Return of the Jedi, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Both Ghostbusters movies, and etc. It is a trope, but it is not a rehash.

 

Point 1 The beginning of the scene.

Book One: Kaladin reluctantly decides to save Dalinar and his men after several of his friends suggest that they should do something. Kaladin is healthy. He has powers granted by stormlight, He risks his one chance to escape.

 

Book Two: By himself, Kaladin has come to the realization that he needs to save Elhokar. He eagerly goes to do so. He loses nothing if he stays in his room. He no longer has stormlight. He is injured.

 

Point 2 The Crisis.

Book One: He uses up all his stormlight and that does incapacitate him, but I don't think it would have killed him. His friends were going to complete the task by themselves and most likely die. He only risks being killed by his enemies. Can still get up and run.

 

Book two: He is near death after being beaten up by his friend. If he had done nothing, only someone he doesn't like very much could die. Can barely stand or lift his hand.

 

Point 3 The Ideal

 

Book One: "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" Said when he saved his friends from the Parshendi. 

 

Book Two: "I will protect even those I hate if it is right." Said when he realizes who he wants to be.

 

Point 4 Result.

 

Book One: Kaladin is tired, worried, bitter, but glad he did the right thing.

 

Book Two: Kaladin is a Knights Radient who has fully embraced his role.

 

So that's why I don't see the third ideal scene as a rip-off of the second.

 

Kaladin's story isn't for everyone, but I'm glad Sanderson did it this way because to me it is beautiful.

[El Shardo]

I like Kaladin and enjoyed his bits in the books but he was incredibly frustrating, almost to a point where it would've felt satisfying if someone just sat him down and told him to stop acting like a little rust

[Dru]

I am a fan of trying to illustrate what i want to say with describing odd "stories" (can find the english word for it now). And i also beleve this difference in opinion on the Kaladin matter is connected to what type of person we our self are, Generalist or a "Specialist". I for one is more of a generalist, I look at what I consider to be big picture, for me pointers is quite enough and details can make things to "clogy" (I have problems with WoT and Fire and Ice due to this reason).

 

 

Book two Kaladin tests that small amount of trust. How much he does trust and respect Dalinar in the book is surprising and downright uplifting. He is trying so hard and yet every life experience reminds him that it could all be an act and at some point Dalinar will fail him. He knows that he can't prove what Amaram did and yet he told Dalinar shortly after he began working for him, after he found out they were life long friends. And even after he assumes Dalinar didn't believe him, he continues to trust Dalinar anyway. He allows himself to go to prison on Dalinar's word that he will get him out and continues to respect him after that, Then finally Dalinar proves he deserves Kaladin's trust by catching Amaram in his lie. I think that was the moment Kaladin truly trusted a lighteyes again. I don't think he would have cared about saving Elhokar if Dalinar had not done that.

 

Now had this been the only focus of Kaladin's character arc, I would agree it was single minded, but it wasn't.

 

Kaladin also learned to trust and care about both of Dalinar's sons and Shallan. That was surprising.

 

And that was only half of what his arc focused on. The other half was about now that he had power over his life again, who did he want to be.

 

This is where the Moash plot and the Third ideal come in to play.

 

The third ideal is not a rehash of the second, nor is the scene where Kaladin speaks it a rehash of the 2nd ideal scene in book one. Oh they are similar, they are also similar to the climax of Mistborn 1 and Elantris, The main character is near death and comes to an Epiphany that saves the day. This trope is also used in Hunger Games, several Star Trek episodes, Return of the Jedi, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Both Ghostbusters movies, and etc. It is a trope, but it is not a rehash.

 

Point 1 The beginning of the scene.

Book One: Kaladin reluctantly decides to save Dalinar and his men after several of his friends suggest that they should do something. Kaladin is healthy. He has powers granted by stormlight, He risks his one chance to escape.

 

Book Two: By himself, Kaladin has come to the realization that he needs to save Elhokar. He eagerly goes to do so. He loses nothing if he stays in his room. He no longer has stormlight. He is injured.

 

Point 2 The Crisis.

Book One: He uses up all his stormlight and that does incapacitate him, but I don't think it would have killed him. His friends were going to complete the task by themselves and most likely die. He only risks being killed by his enemies. Can still get up and run.

 

Book two: He is near death after being beaten up by his friend. If he had done nothing, only someone he doesn't like very much could die. Can barely stand or lift his hand.

 

Point 3 The Ideal

 

Book One: "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" Said when he saved his friends from the Parshendi. 

 

Book Two: "I will protect even those I hate if it is right." Said when he realizes who he wants to be.

 

Point 4 Result.

 

Book One: Kaladin is tired, worried, bitter, but glad he did the right thing.

 

Book Two: Kaladin is a Knights Radient who has fully embraced his role.

 

So that's why I don't see the third ideal scene as a rip-off of the second.

 

Kaladin's story isn't for everyone, but I'm glad Sanderson did it this way because to me it is beautiful.

 

I totally agree that Kaladins issues was not resolved at the end of tWoK and that they needed to be adressed in WoR. Here Brandon did a really good job no doubt. My problem is that it is to long drawn out and could have been handeld a bit differently. 

 

Will try to make some lose examples of what i mean so bare with me. 

 

Imagine if Kaladin had figured out his 3ed ideal at the time he is with Adolin and Shallan at the "zoo" or when they go out on the shattered plains before the chasm stuff. Now if he in these scens would have had the 3ed he would be able to focus more on the positive sides of these light eyes, he does to some degree yes but he is still moping around in the book. Now in these cases we would be able to see him deal with his trust issues in a little bit different way that would maybe feel more like some progression actually happens.  Note that having the 3ed ideal for this is not really necessary but it is a turing point symbolising that he actually got somewhere and having it earlier and seeing him interact with people around him with this in mind would in my opinion yeald better results. But I guess that this will be his focus in book 3. On a nother note the chasm scen is for me a truly good example of how he progress, and this progress should have come earlier and been built upon more for my liking.

 

Why I say that the 3ed ideal scen is a rip-off the 2ed ideal scen is maybe due to me being a generalist. I agree that the differences you point out is accurate but that is not how i read the scen. In my opinion I would attach the saying "Unique snowflake" to the differences you point out (no pun intend I respect your well thought out answer).

 

I view it as this for both scens:

 

Wounded tired - Check

Fighting impossible odds - Check

speaking Ideal - Check

Power-up healing to full health - Check

Stormlight saves the day - Check

 

And this type of general repeating of scens is for me to much when it comes to Kaladin and how they are used to resolve his issues that needs to be resolved in WoR.

 

 

 

[Wolven]

I fully agree.  I was surprised when I came here to find people really downing him.  I thought he felt very real, very natural in WoR.  After what he went through, I thought his reactions to things were very believable.  I mean, after his life being destroyed, twice, for him to come out of slavery and be happy and content...that would have been unnatural.  I liked his progression.  In the end, it took meeting another person, a Lighteyes no less, who was broken in the same way as he was, for him to finally start to get over his demons, and even now I am willing to bet that they are not all worked through.

 

There is a reason why Kaladin has moved into my top five favorite characters of all time list after all.

[taliefer]

just an observation: i think its telling that the people who didnt like/were frustrated with kaladin's story still recognize it was realistic. i think that points to just how well written Kaladin is, even if people felt it was too drawn out.

 

im of the opinion that kaladin was prone to Depression even before it all went to hell. it strikes a cord with me on a personal level like no other character in any series.

[+eveorjoy]

 

Wounded tired - Check

Fighting impossible odds - Check

speaking Ideal - Check

Power-up healing to full health - Check

Stormlight saves the day - Check

 

I can see where you are coming from with this. Nonetheless, I wouldn't call this a rip off, just a trope. Change "speaking ideal" to getting a mcguffin and you have described many stories including Mistborn 1 and Elantris. 

 

Mistborn One.

 

Vin is injured and tired - check

Vin can't defeat the all powerful lord ruler - check

Vin loses her earring - check

The mists accepts her powering her up and healing her - check

Allomancy saves the day - check

 

Elantris

 

Raodin has succumb to all his wounds sending him into madness - check

All the Elantrians and everyone else is about to be killed - Check

Raodin realizes he needs to complete the Elantris symbol -Check

Raodin is instantly healed - Check

AorDor saves the day - Check.

 

Now we can do this with Frank Herbert's Dune.

 

Paul succumbs to the Water of Life -Check

The entire galactic army is about to attack Arrakis - Check

Paul awakens his ancestral memories -Check

He is heals instantly and is powered up - Check

The powers of the Kwistaz Haderach save the day - check.

 

The hero is injured and all is lost until the hero finds "the secret" is a common trope. Writers are going to use it over and over again, but it is never a rip-off anymore than the hero and heroine falling in love or class-ism in a book is a rip-off.

 

This trope is often used when a warrior-hero needs to learn an important theme or gain and important item in an exciting way.

 

Maybe Kaladin will have a more calm epiphany in book 3 and Szeth will get to use this trope. Or maybe Sanderson won't use this trope in book 3 at all. Still there are few tropes you can uses for making an epiphany dramatic.

 

I can understand why using a trope over and over can get boring. Cliche is an overused trope. Still using tropes is unavoidable. We have been using them since bestsellers were painted on cave walls.

Edited March 25, 2014 by eveorjoy

[Jivvy]

Kaladin's arc in WoR was my favorite part, and this discussion about his epiphany and stating the third ideal is interesting, but it misses Kaladin's more important epiphany and the conclusion of his internal growth.

The most important part of Kaladin's story is his realization that Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien. The rest is really just an action sequence. Even stating the third ideal is just him putting to words what he was feeling throughout the chapter.

[BrindIf]

I like Kaladin and enjoyed his bits in the books but he was incredibly frustrating, almost to a point where it would've felt satisfying if someone just sat him down and told him to stop acting like a little rust

 

I do not find Kaladin choice so obvious.

On one side there are innocents being killed (Moash grand-parents, Tien, bridgemen "whom only sin was poverty"), on the other side there is a king, with its own Shard.

Which side "cannot protect itself" ?!

 

It's fortunate for the story that Moash get a Shard and that Elhokar is left behind, it makes it a lot simpler for Kaladin to have a "right" option.

[Walker]

The climax of WoK was very strong. But I do believe that, for many readers, it set up Kaladin as a traditional power fantasy. This created many expectations that did not line up where Brandon was taking the story.

 

There was a lot of that right here in this forum before the release.  About how awesome it was going to be when Kaladin confronted Amaram (without thinking about how this would affect his relationship with Dalinar).  About how awesome it was going to be when Kaladin confronted Seth. 

 

To say that his story arc is a rehash of WoK is just false.  The lessons he learned are completely different.  The WoK was learning about being a leader. His 2nd ideal is an oath that gives him a position of power, the savior role.  In WoR was learning lessons about being a follower, about being subservient. You see this throughout the book as Dalinar castigates Kaladin for lack of respect.  The 3rd is an oath about being bound by responsibility, and not just your personal feelings.  This is not a lesson that Kaladin could learn as a bridgeman, when there was no lower that he could go.

 

What Kaladin's story lacked is the power that many thought he had gained at the end of WoK (and which he really didn't).  Instead of shifting to an external conflict, his story conflict remained internal. That is the only way in which the two stories are the same.