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[OB] Willshapers have Cognitive Cohesion


MountainKing

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Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers have to have Cohesion, because Cohesion is the "grab something solid and melt it and push it in any direction you want..." it's the weak atomic force.

It's, you can take this and push your hand into it and leave a hand print, or things like that, and that's a Willshaper thing, not a Bondsmith thing.

Footnote: In the context of looking at the Radiant chart
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But I am interested in seeing how the surges interact with different realms, if they can.

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So cognitive cohesion as in:

- telepathic communication (think battlefield coordination, scouting, spying)

- use the force luke "you won't remember this!" (mind suppression)

- emotional suppression or enhancement (make others calmer or angrier, etc)

- inception (if you've seen the movie, you'll know what I mean)

That would make for a really interesting order...and ethically interesting oaths.

 

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5 hours ago, vikorr said:

So cognitive cohesion as in:

- telepathic communication (think battlefield coordination, scouting, spying)

- use the force luke "you won't remember this!" (mind suppression)

- emotional suppression or enhancement (make others calmer or angrier, etc)

- inception (if you've seen the movie, you'll know what I mean)

That would make for a really interesting order...and ethically interesting oaths.

 

Cognitive or Spiritual aspects have never been presented as this blunt, shallan's spiritual transformation of people or kaladin's strong ability to form bonds around himself aren't this active manipulation of powers but passive subtle manifestation of power, only the bondsmiths can actively control and apply those aspects of themselves. 

That's Why the Stormfather says that Dalinar's physical surger aren't his greatest power, not because they are lesser but becouse his other power are far more use full and effective at what his order want to achieve. For example if the windrunner order was made up of only three members and they had complete control of their cognitive and spiritual power, their ability to fly would seem almost incidental to ther ability to touch anyone and turn them into squire, thus creating an army that can fly,affect the weather,heal from almost everything and have inhanced speed strength and reflexes.

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While Kalladi doesnt have any control over his spiritual powers, Shallan controls it by using drawings. Considering that our willshaper is Venli, i wouldnt be suprised to see her power work during her secret speaches.

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Quote

Cognitive or Spiritual aspects have never been presented as this blunt,

While true - not having previously seen such strong cognitive effects in other orders does not hold much meaning because:

- Shallans use of the cognitive realm is tied to transformation, not cohesion. They should not have the same effects or abilities, at all.

- Kaladins touches the cognitive realm only indirectly. Not only should he not have the same abilities at all, but anything he does with the cognitive realm should be much, much weaker.

- no other order has a discussion of 'cognitive cohesion'; and (in support of this last)

- the Stormfather told Dalinar that his abilities with stone would be different to that of Stonewards, which sets a precedent that surges aren't quite the same for the two orders that share any given surge

Most KR orders names reflect their abilities to some degree (elsecallers are a vague term). Willshapers, being a very straightforward name, must have either some ability to shape wills, or use their will to shape. But we've already seen that the transformation surge uses the KR's will to shape things, so why would another KR order be able to do the exact same thing with a different surge? It seems at least feasible that they actually influence/shape wills.

The one thing that doesn't fit with the above is the Oathbringer quote on Willshapers 

Quote

And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.

That's cut & paste from the coppermind. The problem is, I can't see why an order called willshapers would be this way at all. 

Edited by vikorr
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It makes me wonder if they can do something similar to Rioting and Soothing in Mistborn. I would definitely classify that as an ability to shape others by your will and I think it also works with the Oathbringer quote listed above where it says 'taking it for granted that others would agree'. I have always wondered about where the name 'Willshaper' came from for the order and like the idea of it being based around cognitive cohesion. 

Though to be clear, I don't think that it would be exactly the same as emotional Allomancy (I cannot see Brandon recycling a system like that) but perhaps it is something similar. 

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  • Pagerunner changed the title to [OB] Willshapers have Cognitive Cohesion
7 hours ago, LadyLameness said:

It makes me wonder if they can do something similar to Rioting and Soothing in Mistborn. I would definitely classify that as an ability to shape others by your will and I think it also works with the Oathbringer quote listed above where it says 'taking it for granted that others would agree'. I have always wondered about where the name 'Willshaper' came from for the order and like the idea of it being based around cognitive cohesion. 

Though to be clear, I don't think that it would be exactly the same as emotional Allomancy (I cannot see Brandon recycling a system like that) but perhaps it is something similar. 

I really like this idea, we already have seen that the surges don't work exactly the same across the different orders (except for Gravitation, which works exactly the same in the Skybreakers as it does in Windrunners based on what we've seen.) So I could see Willshaper Cohesion working like emotional allomancy, and maybe help one certain Listener with getting her people to forsake Odium?

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10 hours ago, mosaab said:

Cognitive or Spiritual aspects have never been presented as this blunt, shallan's spiritual transformation of people or kaladin's strong ability to form bonds around himself aren't this active manipulation of powers but passive subtle manifestation of power, only the bondsmiths can actively control and apply those aspects of themselves. 

That's Why the Stormfather says that Dalinar's physical surger aren't his greatest power, not because they are lesser but becouse his other power are far more use full and effective at what his order want to achieve. For example if the windrunner order was made up of only three members and they had complete control of their cognitive and spiritual power, their ability to fly would seem almost incidental to ther ability to touch anyone and turn them into squire, thus creating an army that can fly,affect the weather,heal from almost everything and have inhanced speed strength and reflexes.

Kaladin's ability to create so many squires is probably because of his resonance of his two surges, and Shallan's influence on her body guards, probably weren't because of her surge of transformation, but instead because she offered them a way to a better life.

And at the end of Oathbringer Shallan's uses Cognitive Illumination

Quote

Shallan felt something. Pattern, or something like him, just beyond her mental reach. On the other side, and if she could just tug on it, feed it … She screamed as Stormlight flowed through her, raging in her veins, reaching toward something in her pocket. A wall appeared in front of her. Shallan gasped. A sickening smack from the other side of the wall indicated that the Fused had collided with it. A wall. A storming wall of worked stones, broken at the sides. Shallan looked down and found that her pocket—she was still wearing Veil’s white trousers—was connected to the strange wall. What on Roshar? She pulled out her small knife and sawed the pocket free, then stumbled back. In the center of the wall was a small bead, melded into the stone. That’s the bead I used to cross the sea down below, Shallan thought. What she’d done felt like Soulcasting, yet different. Pattern ran up to her, humming as he left the bridge. Where were Adolin and Syl? “I took the soul of the wall,” Shallan said, “and then made its physical form appear on this side.”

 

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10 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

And at the end of Oathbringer Shallan's uses Cognitive Illumination

That takes place in Shadesmar,  and the text pretty clearly mentions what it actually is.

Making the physical form of the wall appear in the cognitive realm wasn't any form of "cognitive illumination".  We see an earlier example when the spren on the ship get water for them.

Other Cosmere stories in the cognitive realm have used this without any mention or reason to believe stormlight or surgebinding were involved.

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29 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

I really like this idea, we already have seen that the surges don't work exactly the same across the different orders (except for Gravitation, which works exactly the same in the Skybreakers as it does in Windrunners based on what we've seen.) So I could see Willshaper Cohesion working like emotional allomancy, and maybe help one certain Listener with getting her people to forsake Odium?

There is more precedent for surges working the same than not, like Progression & Transformation. And those that don't can be explained by addition of other surge, like shallan's illusions having substance because of combination with Transformation.

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Zmann966 [PENDING REVIEW]

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966 [PENDING REVIEW]

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

If manifesting the beads is tied to one of the surges, and not just a thing anyone can do with Stormlight, it would seem to be the a different form of Transformation, not Illumination. 

It's still a cognitive version of a surge showed on screen.

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

If manifesting the beads is tied to one of the surges, and not just a thing anyone can do with Stormlight, it would seem to be the a different form of Transformation, not Illumination. 

There is Cosmere evidence that it isn't the case here anyways.

We see the beads get manifested in the exact same way in Mistborn Secret History.  It would be a pretty extreme twist if that was done with surges.  It's just something that can be done in the cognitive realm with practice.  The surging must have made it easier or something; but it doesn't seem like something inherently tried to surgebinding.

Edited by Journey Before Pancakes
Adding some clairification.
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@Journey Before Pancakes I agree, which is why I said if.

I think on Roshar, the bead form of Cognitive entities will make it need Stormlight, just like the device for making water by manifesting ice. 

I think that unlike Scadrial, where the Cognitive retains its form, but turned to mist, that the Rosharan beads are more restrictive. That is complete speculation on my part. It may be that, as there, manifesting is just a matter of will and practice. 

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12 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

It's just something that can be done in the cognitive realm with practice.  The surging must have made it easier or something; but it doesn't seem like something inherently tried to surgebinding.

 

I would agree with this. I could see it being easier for someone with the surge of Transformation, with the surge acting similar to a chemical catalyst.  I do think you need to have access to some sort of Investiture though to be able to get beads to manifest (I'm not sure if you were implying that or not). I can't see your average non-Radiant Rosharian being able to do no matter how hard they tried. 

 

11 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

It is weird how much more restrictive the cognitive realm seems around Roshar compared to Scadrial.  That requires investiture for some reason and it's much harder to navigate

Scadrial is about as difficult to navigate as Roshar. 

SH Spoilers: 

Spoiler

At least for physical beings. 

"Oh, Spanky here is just a spirit. It's damnably difficult to get about in this subastral - anyone physical risks slipping through these mists and falling, perhaps forever." Part 2, Chapter 1

 

It's interesting that in Scadrial there's potentially no limit to how far you can fall through the mists, yet in Roshar there's a tangible bottom to the beads. 

 

14 hours ago, Szmit said:

Zmann966 [PENDING REVIEW]

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966 [PENDING REVIEW]

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

This WOB's referring to the pictures Shallan draws of the mercenaries correct? In that case, you know what it reminds me of? Malatium. 

I'm rereading Mistborn, so everything reminds me of Mistborn

 

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14 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

There is Cosmere evidence that it isn't the case here anyways.

We see the beads get manifested in the exact same way in Mistborn Secret History.  It would be a pretty extreme twist if that was done with surges.  It's just something that can be done in the cognitive realm with practice.  The surging must have made it easier or something; but it doesn't seem like something inherently tried to surgebinding.

I haven't read secret history in a while, but I believe that Kelsier never actually used the physical version of the objects, what he used what their cognitive aspects made out of mist, I don't think it is equivalent to what Shallan did, but it is more similar to where Jasnah commanded the beads around her to create a sctructure out of beads.

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27 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I haven't read secret history in a while, but I believe that Kelsier never actually used the physical version of the objects, what he used what their cognitive aspects made out of mist, I don't think it is equivalent to what Shallan did, but it is more similar to where Jasnah commanded the beads around her to create a sctructure out of beads.

He described it as taking the soul of the fire with him.  Khriss does the same thing.  From what I remember it describes it the same way as the spren do, but without stormlight needed.

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47 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

I haven't read secret history in a while, but I believe that Kelsier never actually used the physical version of the objects, what he used what their cognitive aspects made out of mist, I don't think it is equivalent to what Shallan did, but it is more similar to where Jasnah commanded the beads around her to create a sctructure out of beads.

The physical versions were made manifest in Shadesmar. He used the fire to create heat and light, not just a misty version. 

Edited by Calderis
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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The physical versions were made manifest in Shadesmar. He used the fire to create heat and light, not just a misty version. 

I woud say the main diffrence was material. Beads are probably almost pure Identity that need Investiture, and mistsneedsInvestiture that needs Identity

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