[OB] The Weirdness of Oathbringer

[The One Who Connects he/him]

23 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I think it might have to do with his wish to avoid broadening the story as much as Jordan and GRRM has done woth their story. He has always tried to keep his characters in the same geographical zones, and avoids spreading them out. The story becomes more focused as a result of this, but also a bit more frustrating for some, since a lot of characters or places gets less space. For this book, Brandon clearly wished to focus on the characters of Dalinar and Shallan, as well as the Kholinar, Shadesmar and Rosharan Alliance story arcs. This meant that some things, such as the internal Alethis politics, and a bunch of Secret Societies didn’t get a lot of time to appear. 

This reminds me of an old discussion about one of the Wheel of Time books. For those who don't know: WoT has dozens upon dozens of characters, enough to warrant a separate wikipedia page listing them.

You eventually get to the point where you have to choose between showing all of the stories and advancing the stories. Robert Jordan decided to show most/all of the stories in one of the books(think it was book... 7? not sure), and what ended up happening is that we had a massive book where lots of things happened, but in the grand scheme of the series, nothing happened. There were so many character/story arcs to visit that we spent very little in-world time with each of them, and none of the stories got any meaningful advancement because of that time constraint.

Something noted in those old discussions is that the opposite side of that balancing act is just as problematic, giving us something like Oathbringer, where the focus was on advancing some of the stories, at the cost of several characters/arcs having minimal screen-time, and in Robert Jordan's case, half of the characters not even being in the book at all, as Andy92 noted above. This also happened in the Song of Ice and Fire books, as Tyrion's book by book chapter counts go 9, 15, 11, 0, 12. Jon Snow goes 9, 8, 12, 0, 13. Daenerys is 10, 5, 6, 0, 10. Bran is also missing from Book 4.

---

I know Brandon's character list isn't that extensive yet, but every person has different limits. Considering Brandon was both a reader and eventually writer of the Wheel of Time books, he probably understands some of the dangers of this balancing act. What it seems like happened in Oathbringer is that Brandon is reaching/exploring his personal tipping point between how much he can balance and how much he can't.

Do note that I'm not brushing off the complaints about Oathbringer by saying it's "literary genius" or somesuch nonsense. What I'm saying is that this seems like as much of a learning experience for Brandon as it was a book for the readers. Looking at how well Song of Secrets works as a followup is a good start, but where we'll really see what Brandon took from this experience is when he writes SA8. Being the "book 3" of the Back 5, it's the most equivalent comparison we'll have for a long while.

[Journey Before Pancakes]

On 28/05/2018 at 0:10 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

It does, and that is a good explanation for the absence (pretty sure I spelled that word wrong) of people like Mraize or Nale. But the Sadeas plot doesn´t fall in that cathegory. And if we had some Amaram POVs that explained his reasoning and maybe made him a bit more symphatetic, the ending would have worked better, and would have felt a lot stronger. 

I honesty think the Sadeas lack of focus made sense.  It's the type of thing that could have been a big deal; except for the fact that Roshar is experiencing the start of a desolation, so the murder of a high-lord is basically secondary.  

 

For the same reason the book had no time to focus on those things, neither did the characters.  IMO it would have been a strange change of pace to focus on these minor points in light of the major situation.  Now that OB tied a lot of loose ends though, I could see some of these "buried" points coming back.

[Diomedes]

32 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

I honesty think the Sadeas lack of focus made sense.  It's the type of thing that could have been a big deal; except for the fact that Roshar is experiencing the start of a desolation, so the murder of a high-lord is basically secondary.

No, the murder of Sadeas was a huge deal for the plot. It made 10.000 soldiers of House Sadeas betray the Alethi cause. It was the entire reason for tension in the finale in Thaylen.

Not focusing on such a huge plotpoint is weird. (But not necessarily bad)

As I said there are too many oddities in that book to make this a coincidence. 

38 minutes ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

Now that OB tied a lot of loose ends though, I could see some of these "buried" points coming back.

That is definitly going to happen.     

[Journey Before Pancakes]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

No, the murder of Sadeas was a huge deal for the plot. It made 10.000 soldiers of House Sadeas betray the Alethi cause. It was the entire reason for tension in the finale in Thaylen.

I really didn't see it that big.  Sure, it set Amaram up to fight for Odium, but I think the same thing could have easily happened with Sadeas in charge had Brandon set it up differently.

That was really all Odium's doing.

The characters we follow seemed to focus on the relevant parts.  Most of them didn't like Sadeas though so he didn't come up much.  He was dead and there were better things to think about. 

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, Journey Before Pancakes said:

I honesty think the Sadeas lack of focus made sense.  It's the type of thing that could have been a big deal; except for the fact that Roshar is experiencing the start of a desolation, so the murder of a high-lord is basically secondary.

 

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

No, the murder of Sadeas was a huge deal for the plot. It made 10.000 soldiers of House Sadeas betray the Alethi cause. It was the entire reason for tension in the finale in Thaylen.

Not focusing on such a huge plotpoint is weird. (But not necessarily bad)

You're both right. All of the main characters had much more pressing things to focus on, and that made them brush aside Sadeas death to deal with what was necessary. 

To Sadeas men, their leader was killed, and the lack of attention was just confirmation that the Kholins were responsible. 

The very lack of attention given to Sadeas' death is what made it such a big deal in the end. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Calderis

[Stormfather-in-Law]

On 5/28/2018 at 10:26 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Personally, I think balance is a problem with Oathbringer. Would I have chopped away a little of the time in Shadesmar to give more meat to the Sadeas murder story? Yes. Would I have sacrificed one or two Bridge 4 POVs for an Amaram POV? Yup.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Touch Lunamor's POV chapter over my dead body. Even then, I will come back as a shadow and stop you. That chapter is funny, beautiful, meaningful, and intriguing all at the same time. Ranks among the best chapters in all three books for me.

[Llarimar he/him]

On 5/28/2018 at 7:26 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Personally, I think balance is a problem with Oathbringer. Would I have chopped away a little of the time in Shadesmar to give more meat to the Sadeas murder story? Yes. Would I have sacrificed one or two Bridge 4 POVs for an Amaram POV? Yup.

2 hours ago, Stormfather-in-Law said:

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Touch Lunamor's POV chapter over my dead body. Even then, I will come back as a shadow and stop you. That chapter is funny, beautiful, meaningful, and intriguing all at the same time. Ranks among the best chapters in all three books for me.

Not sure how serious you're being about the Lumanor chapter, Stormfather-in-Law - it was good, I suppose, but it didn't stand out nearly as much to me.  I definitley agree with Toaster Retribution, however, that Amaram could have used viewpoint chapters, and that there were way too many viewpoint chapters for random characters, including Bridge 4.  The number of viewpoint characters kind of becomes ridiculous and exhausting, especially during the Battle of Thaylen City, for example.

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I know Brandon's character list isn't that extensive yet, but every person has different limits. Considering Brandon was both a reader and eventually writer of the Wheel of Time books, he probably understands some of the dangers of this balancing act. What it seems like happened in Oathbringer is that Brandon is reaching/exploring his personal tipping point between how much he can balance and how much he can't.

Do note that I'm not brushing off the complaints about Oathbringer by saying it's "literary genius" or somesuch nonsense. What I'm saying is that this seems like as much of a learning experience for Brandon as it was a book for the readers. Looking at how well Song of Secrets works as a followup is a good start, but where we'll really see what Brandon took from this experience is when he writes SA8. Being the "book 3" of the Back 5, it's the most equivalent comparison we'll have for a long while.

Very good points here - I think that they serve as a good counterpoint to @Diomedes's original post.  Yes, Brandon is an amazing author who has immense control over his craft, and I like to think that the oppressive plot of Oathbringer was intentional rather than the result of flawed writing.  However, I also agree that some of the "problems" with Oathbringer could also be reflective of Brandon reaching the limits of how much he can balance in a story and how much he can't, as One Who Connect says.  Saying that writing Oathbringer was possibly a learning experience for Brandon as much as it was for the readers provides a nice perspective, because it avoids deifying him as an author and saying that it's impossible for him to make mistakes.  I think it's good to combine these two perspectives - yes, some people are being too hard on Brandon over Oathbringer, and he does know what he's doing, but he also is just an ordinary person and some of the flaws in Oathbringer could be the result of his genuine limitations as an author.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Llarimar

[Willshaping Crasher]

I guess I can understand that people wanted more/something else to happen.  For myself, it was what I expected from the middle book of a series. 

[Vissy]

My problem with the "no time for Sadeas stuff" is that that's just not true. It's perfectly viable to tie the Sadeas aftermath and the characters' introspection about it (murder investigation anyone?) into the main plot without just a "whoops i didn't show any of it but apparently Sadeas murder caused EVERY SADEAS SOLDIER TO TURN" thrown into the mix at the very end, with virtually no build-up. This is a book, you could make literally anything make internal sense within the plot, so don't give me the "well it makes sense that it wasn't given any attention" excuse. The only one who decides that is the author, and Sanderson decided not to give it any attention. That was a mistake. It felt like a very cheap finale as an aftermath. Apparently the Sadeas Army were just Bad Guys that had no agency or personality, basically just orcs that were described as human. I guess I shouldn't expect that much depth from a YA book but still, it was disappointing.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Vissy

[Steeldancer he/him]

55 minutes ago, Vissy said:

My problem with the "no time for Sadeas stuff" is that that's just not true. It's perfectly viable to tie the Sadeas aftermath and the characters' introspection about it (murder investigation anyone?) into the main plot without just a "whoops i didn't show any of it but apparently Sadeas murder caused EVERY SADEAS SOLDIER TO TURN" thrown into the mix at the very end, with virtually no build-up. This is a book, you could make literally anything make internal sense within the plot, so don't give me the "well it makes sense that it wasn't given any attention" excuse. The only one who decides that is the author, and Sanderson decided not to give it any attention. That was a mistake. It felt like a very cheap finale as an aftermath. Apparently the Sadeas Army were just Bad Guys that had no agency or personality, basically just orcs that were described as human. I guess I shouldn't expect that much depth from a YA book but still, it was disappointing.

1. SA is not YA. 

2. Sadeas’s army is addressed as being hard to control because of the murder throughout the book. No, it’s not shoved in your face, but it is mentioned multiple times that Amaram is having a hard time controlling them, due to their anger. It was amaram himself that I felt was the most jarring, because that WASNT mentioned. But the army was addressed, but it was always off-hand, because Dalinar had more important things to do, which probably contributed to the issue. 

[Diomedes]

54 minutes ago, Vissy said:

That was a mistake. It felt like a very cheap finale as an aftermath. Apparently the Sadeas Army were just Bad Guys that had no agency or personality, basically just orcs that were described as human. I guess I shouldn't expect that much depth from a YA book but still, it was disappointing.

Oh boy, I know this book was a huge disappointment for you. But describing Sanderson`s book as just some YA book... well you are provoking some strong reactions posting this in a forum of fans who have devoted lots and lots of their time and energy to analyze these books.

I suppose you have read other Sanderson novels? I also suppose you quite liked them, otherwise you would not be as disappointed as you are. How would it possible that a writer who evolved consistently and steadily in his skill as a writer from Elantris to Words of Radiance writes such an appalingly structured book? A book that makes such obvious structural mistakes that it is almost laughable. The neglect of Amaram and his soldiers is a good example of one of many obvious structural mistakes.

He made these decisions for a reason. Not because he is "just a bad author". I tried to explain the reason to you. It is possible even for a good author to have a one-off bad book. However, there are systematically to many of these oddities to say Brandon just made a mistake here and there, which would make this a one-off bad book; Way to many indeed.     

Currently, I am rereading Oathbringer with that in mind what Sanderson wants to show in this book. I am enjoying the book far more than I did on the first reread. 

I am not saying Brandon is a genius, he is not. Or that he does not make mistakes, he does. But saying there is no depth in this book like in some YA books.... that is just not true.  

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The problem with Sadeas soldiers and Amaram is that it got too little build-up. We never got any POV from any single one of them, and whenever Amaram or Ialai confronted the main characters, they were riddiculed. The biggest weakness, and what a lot of the complaints (apart from the love triangle stuff, but that is another animal) boils down to, is that Team Sadeas got some really bad and rushed development. 

I don’t think that this bad development came from Brandon being a good writer, with a plan. I think that he made a mistake here, and that it is that simple. That fact doesn’t make OB a bad book, and it doesn’t make Brandon a bad author (the words Brandon and bad doesn’t really belong in the same sentence). 

We can of course wonder why Team Sadeas got such a bad development. Personally, I think it has to do with Brandons wish for a somewhat narrow focus. I also think that he had a lot of other stuff, with Bridge 4 or Shadesmar, that he found more interesting to write about. 

It would be interesting if someone could ask Brandon about his reasoning with Amaram and Team Sadeas at a signing. I would if I could, but I doubt Brandon will be coming to Sweden any time soon. 

[Llarimar he/him]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

Oh boy, I know this book was a huge disappointment for you. But describing Sanderson`s book as just some YA book... well you are provoking some strong reactions posting this in a forum of fans who have devoted lots and lots of their time and energy to analyze these books.

The cosmere books are categorically not YA novels, no, but it's not so terribly offensive for someone to suggest that they are.  I know plenty of adult people whose favorite genre is young adult fiction.  There are lots of really good YA novels out there.  

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

He made these decisions for a reason. Not because he is "just a bad author". I tried to explain the reason to you. It is possible even for a good author to have a one-off bad book. However, there are systematically to many of these oddities to say Brandon just made a mistake here and there, which would make this a one-off bad book; Way to many indeed.     

The theory you posted to begin this thread is interesting, and in my original response I expressed how much I appreciate it.  However to say that you know you are correct is taking it a little too far - just because you have found compelling evidence for a theory, that doesn't necessarily make it true.  You said in your post "I tried to explain the reason to you..." (for the "mistakes" in OB) as if you know the reason, but you only have a compelling idea, and someone could easily disagree with it.  I personally do not agree that all of the perceived faults in OB were intentional, even though I do like the concept.  Like @The One Who Connects posted earlier, some of these "mistakes" could genuinely be the result of Brandon reaching his limitations as an author.  For one example in particular - the way he dealt with the murder of Sadeas and the character of Amaram - I agree with Toaster Retribution below:

54 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don’t think that this bad development came from Brandon being a good writer, with a plan. I think that he made a mistake here, and that it is that simple. That fact doesn’t make OB a bad book, and it doesn’t make Brandon a bad author (the words Brandon and bad doesn’t really belong in the same sentence). 

Even if many of the seemingly flawed elements of OB may have been intentional (which we can't know for sure), this is one that I think was a genuine oversight by Brandon that will hopefully be remedied in future books.  

55 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It would be interesting if someone could ask Brandon about his reasoning with Amaram and Team Sadeas at a signing. I would if I could, but I doubt Brandon will be coming to Sweden any time soon. 

On a side note, you're from Sweden?  That's so cool.  I wondered when I saw that you wrote your post "45 minutes ago" because that would make it 5:00 am in the part of the United States where I live (not sure what time it was in Sweden...).  Not that people aren't awake at 5 in the morning, but most people who I know aren't!  

[Vissy]

In terms of its writing style and tropes, SA is so much like YA. Shallan's witticisms, Kaladin's brooding, even the general level of writing are all hallmarks of YA. I'm not calling it categorically a YA book of course, but in practical terms I think I can make that comparison without being wrong at all. 

@Steeldancer Yes, and that's part of what I was talking about. Just mentioning it doesn't make it a prominent part of the narrative, it's more like cramming the words in there somewhere so you can say you included a plot thread into the mix, but that plot thread was still never developed. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Llarimar Yup, I’m a swede (which is why I sometimes make spelling or grammar errors). It is afternoon here right now :-) 

[Steeldancer he/him]

12 minutes ago, Vissy said:

In terms of its writing style and tropes, SA is so much like YA. Shallan's witticisms, Kaladin's brooding, even the general level of writing are all hallmarks of YA. I'm not calling it categorically a YA book of course, but in practical terms I think I can make that comparison without being wrong at all. 

@Steeldancer Yes, and that's part of what I was talking about. Just mentioning it doesn't make it a prominent part of the narrative, it's more like cramming the words in there somewhere so you can say you included a plot thread into the mix, but that plot thread was still never developed. 

General level... Vissy. I have never read any YA where a main character burns an entire city to the ground, including his wife.  I don't know what kind of YA you've been reading, but these are adult themes. I'm actually kind of insulted. Kaladin's brooding is because of clinical depression, and for all my friends who you just defined as simply "brooding," I am insulted. Shallan's wit being a survival mechanism is something that I know several people- including myself- who are insecure, have that as a defense mechanism. This isn't some YA where everything will turn out fine, and the main girl and main guy get together. People go through real, actual pain in these books. And that is NOT YA. 

[Vissy]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

General level... Vissy. I have never read any YA where a main character burns an entire city to the ground, including his wife.  I don't know what kind of YA you've been reading, but these are adult themes. I'm actually kind of insulted. Kaladin's brooding is because of clinical depression, and for all my friends who you just defined as simply "brooding," I am insulted. Shallan's wit being a survival mechanism is something that I know several people- including myself- who are insecure, have that as a defense mechanism. This isn't some YA where everything will turn out fine, and the main girl and main guy get together. People go through real, actual pain in these books. And that is NOT YA. 

The entire setting of 40k is also written at a YA level, an it's full of really nasty things. The presence of gruesome things does not, in any way, preclude a piece of fiction from being YA. The only thing it means is that it's catered to people who are between 12 to 18 years old. Moreover, SA shares many tropes and themes with YA fiction - identity, coming-of-age themes, relationships to name a few. SA also almost completely lacks any explicitly shocking material. There's no description of sex, no intense description of combat and bloodshed. It's all very washed-out. In addition to this, Sanderson himself of course is a YA author through and through, the vast majority of his fiction could easily be classified as such. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Vissy

[Steeldancer he/him]

8 minutes ago, Vissy said:

The entire setting of 40k is also written at a YA level, an it's full of really nasty things. The presence of gruesome things does not, in any way, preclude a piece of fiction from being YA. The only thing it means is that it's catered to people who are between 12 to 18 years old. Moreover, SA shares many tropes and themes with YA fiction - identity, coming-of-age themes, relationships to name a few. SA also almost completely lacks any explicitly shocking material. There's no description of sex, no intense description of combat and bloodshed. It's all very washed-out. In addition to this, Sanderson himself of course is a YA author through and through, the vast majority of his fiction could easily be classified as such. 

OK, if you refuse to accept that OB is very much not targeted at young adults, then whatever. I am not going to continue this argument, because I feel like this is just going to get more toxic. Brandon Sanderson demonstrates in Oathbringer a truly fantastic understanding of humanity. I wonder what he went through in his life to be able to truly understand those emotions. Those kinds of experiences are the very thing that made me more mature and have a more adult viewpoint of the world. This book spoke to me, through that. All you seem content to do is belittle it. There ARE weaknesses, but that seems to be all that is consistently being pointed out, instead of the fact that Brandon has captured a piece of what it is to be human in the SA. Even more than Taln, or realmatics, that is why I love this book. And you defining it as YA is unfair to just how crucial that kind of understanding of people and responsibility and of choice is, to every single person living on this planet. It is not the fact that Dalinar burns down a city that makes it not YA. It is the struggle he goes through afterward, the struggles that each of the main characters have, the ones that, unlike any other author I have ever read, actually makes the characters feel real. The time it takes to explore things that don't particularly matter, helps make the world feel real and not just a flat plotline. Obviously, none of this argument is going to make a difference to you, so I will no longer be commenting on this thread. Just... stop putting your own expectations on these books. While there were bits that didn't fit, like Szeth or Amaram, Dalinar's story demonstrates that Sanderson knows what he is doing. You can continue to have your opinion, just realize it is narrow-minded and feels to me like you are trying to shove the story into a box so you can ridicule it more. 

[Vissy]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

OK, if you refuse to accept that OB is very much not targeted at young adults, then whatever. I am not going to continue this argument, because I feel like this is just going to get more toxic. Brandon Sanderson demonstrates in Oathbringer a truly fantastic understanding of humanity. I wonder what he went through in his life to be able to truly understand those emotions. Those kinds of experiences are the very thing that made me more mature and have a more adult viewpoint of the world. This book spoke to me, through that. All you seem content to do is belittle it. There ARE weaknesses, but that seems to be all that is consistently being pointed out, instead of the fact that Brandon has captured a piece of what it is to be human in the SA. Even more than Taln, or realmatics, that is why I love this book. And you defining it as YA is unfair to just how crucial that kind of understanding of people and responsibility and of choice is, to every single person living on this planet. It is not the fact that Dalinar burns down a city that makes it not YA. It is the struggle he goes through afterward, the struggles that each of the main characters have, the ones that, unlike any other author I have ever read, actually makes the characters feel real. The time it takes to explore things that don't particularly matter, helps make the world feel real and not just a flat plotline. Obviously, none of this argument is going to make a difference to you, so I will no longer be commenting on this thread. Just... stop putting your own expectations on these books. While there were bits that didn't fit, like Szeth or Amaram, Dalinar's story demonstrates that Sanderson knows what he is doing. You can continue to have your opinion, just realize it is narrow-minded and feels to me like you are trying to shove the story into a box so you can ridicule it more. 

I'm not trying to be toxic or to belittle anything or anyone here. Why do you feel that way? A piece of fiction being YA does not preclude it from having depth and from depicting human experiences with insight. Maybe you're attributing some kind of hidden meanings to when I call Stormlight Archives YA fiction. There are no hidden meanings - for me this is a simple mechanical argument about what literary genres tend to contain, and of course there's a lot of flexibility here as well. Clearly enough flexibility for two people to think that a book is YA and for another to reject that notion.

[Llarimar he/him]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

General level... Vissy. I have never read any YA where a main character burns an entire city to the ground, including his wife.  I don't know what kind of YA you've been reading, but these are adult themes. I'm actually kind of insulted. Kaladin's brooding is because of clinical depression, and for all my friends who you just defined as simply "brooding," I am insulted. Shallan's wit being a survival mechanism is something that I know several people- including myself- who are insecure, have that as a defense mechanism. This isn't some YA where everything will turn out fine, and the main girl and main guy get together. People go through real, actual pain in these books. And that is NOT YA. 

25 minutes ago, Vissy said:

The entire setting of 40k is also written at a YA level, pretty much, and it's full of really nasty things. The presence of gruesome things does not, in any way, preclude a piece of fiction from being YA. The only thing it means is that it's catered to people who are between 12 to 18 years old. 

I agree with Vissy here - YA novels can definitely have very dark, very serious themes sometimes.  If you were to describe the plot of the Hunger Games to someone for example - "It's about an oppressive future where kids are forced to kill each other" - it sounds pretty bad.  Saying that a novel is YA or has YA-style writing should not be insulting, even if the book deals with heavy themes like clinical depression or borderline personality disorder.  Young adults often personally struggle with these heavy themes - as much as if not more than adults, and so you will of course see serious topics in literature that is geared towards the YA demographic.

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

In terms of its writing style and tropes, SA is so much like YA. Shallan's witticisms, Kaladin's brooding, even the general level of writing are all hallmarks of YA. I'm not calling it categorically a YA book of course, but in practical terms I think I can make that comparison without being wrong at all. 

While I wouldn't make the comparison myself, I can see how someone could justifiably make the comparison between Stormlight and YA, and the comparison doesn't really bother me that much.  YA novels, when written well, can be just like any other type of great literature.  Brandon himself writes a good amount of YA books, and if you were to ask him whether or not Stormlight is YA, he would probably say no, I imagine, but it wouldn't offend him I don't think - he writes YA fiction himself, and so he's clearly not "above" it, and it would be unsurprising if some YA styles or themes sometimes slipped into his adult books.

One of the reasons why I can understand the comparison being made between SA and YA is because Brandon's books are very serious and intellectual, but they are not graphic and they don't contain extremely adult content which would be inappropriate for teenagers to read.  When you say "adult fantasy" I think most people think of things like Game of Thrones - books that are specifically made for adults and include a lot of gruesome violence and sexual content.  Sanderson's cosmere books are much more "tame" in that regard, so that they are not written specifically for adults or for teenagers but can be enjoyed by both.  

The biggest reason why I personally do not label Stormlight as YA is because of the level of intense and intellectual depth that Sanderson invests into his worldbuilding, which you almost never see in YA fantasy, or even adult fantasy for that matter. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Llarimar

[Ammanas]

I believe that the YA label is becoming more and more inconsequential as series continue  to straddle that line. Another example of this is the Shattered Sea trilogy by Abercrombie it has some of the trademarks (young protagonists, easier prose etc) but there are some very graphic, dark, and adult scenes that take place.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Ammanas

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

The problem with using the YA word is that it has a lot of different meanings. For some, YA equals bad books, with simple themes and bland characters. For others, YA is a more technical description of a genre, without any values attatched. 

[Yvainnie she/her]

I think it comes down to what do you think OB is about. Is it about final battle and that last chapter or is it about journey of Radiants? I dont mean that it is same for everyone, I think everyone can find what they want in it and there always will be that one storyline or particular plot that someone will want more chapters for but I think that Sanderson wrote in not to please everyone but to continue story to build up for all those books that will follow.

[Vissy]

What we think OB is as a whole wasn't discussed here, though. Specifically, I was always focused on the last sections of Oathbringer. I've made my opinions on the book as a whole clear elsewhere before - it's a good book, but a good book that smacks of writers' block and that could've used a few more months of alpha phase.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Vissy

[agrabes]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The problem with Sadeas soldiers and Amaram is that it got too little build-up. We never got any POV from any single one of them, and whenever Amaram or Ialai confronted the main characters, they were riddiculed. The biggest weakness, and what a lot of the complaints (apart from the love triangle stuff, but that is another animal) boils down to, is that Team Sadeas got some really bad and rushed development. 

I don’t think that this bad development came from Brandon being a good writer, with a plan. I think that he made a mistake here, and that it is that simple. That fact doesn’t make OB a bad book, and it doesn’t make Brandon a bad author (the words Brandon and bad doesn’t really belong in the same sentence). 

We can of course wonder why Team Sadeas got such a bad development. Personally, I think it has to do with Brandons wish for a somewhat narrow focus. I also think that he had a lot of other stuff, with Bridge 4 or Shadesmar, that he found more interesting to write about. 

It would be interesting if someone could ask Brandon about his reasoning with Amaram and Team Sadeas at a signing. I would if I could, but I doubt Brandon will be coming to Sweden any time soon. 

I agree on the part of Amaram, but I disagree about the Sadeas soldiers.  I think their turning with little direct, personal build up was entirely the point.  Team Dalinar just assumed that all the Alethi armies would fight on their behalf because they did not realize the influence that Odium can gain over people.

There were hints throughout the series up to this point - Sadeas encouraging brutality, having his soldiers open up to the thrill, essentially promoting the value of competition and victory for yourself above all else.  Sadeas' army was being groomed by Odium for years and I think the book establishes that well.  It isn't Sadeas' death or Amaram's turning that caused Sadeas' army to turn.  It was the fact that they had been systematically molded into a tool for Odium to take over over the course of a decade or more.  Once their minds were aligned in that way, it opened the door for the unmade responsible for the Thrill to directly control them.  This wasn't even a story about how Dalinar and the Kholins ignored and belittled the human concerns of the soldiers, killing their high lord and just assuming they would keep going along because they had no other choice.  This was supposed to be Odium's master stroke: he'd prepared Sadeas' army to cave in to his influence at a key moment and he also thought he had prepared Dalinar to convert as well, sealing his victory.

I felt like this was strongly implied, if not directly stated in the book.  To me, that was satisfying and it explained why Sadeas' army was so terrible.  I'm not sure if you (or others) agree with either my interpretation of the army's motivations or if you feel it was satisfying/unsatisfying.

Overall, I'm glad the OP started this thread.  Count me in the list of people who was left with a weird feeling after OB and this thread has put into words some of the nebulous feelings I've had about the book.  One of these days I'm going to reread it, because I think I'll get a lot more out of it now that I know what to expect.