[OB] Destroying the planet

[jefftucker0525]

Ok so we know that the surges humans used on the last planet destroyed the planet. Another  thing we know is that magic systems act and develop differently based on what planet they're on and what shards have Invested in that planet. And Roshar is special in the fact that Investiture is so easy to come by, replenishing an amount that is effectively infinite without an outrageous and unknown amount of gem stones/ other containers (KR, fabrials, misc.) pretty frequently.

And surges now haves restrictions that may or may not have been there before. It's kind of unlikely that the planet humans originally came from also had spren and highstorms. It's even possible one person could access all 10, or possibly 9 if  Odium was involved and not Honor, surges. My point is even though humans had access to surges, we don't know how that planets magic system worked. Yolen lightweaving is different from Rosharan lightweaving in a few ways.

Depending on how a Shard effects a magic system many  things could be different. I'm going to act on an assumption here that isn't canon or anything and a little unlikely. Shards don't effect a magic system, they are the magic system. Kind of. Each Shard has one magic system they grant to the inhabitants of planets they invest in, Ruin had Hemalurgy, Preservation had Ferucheramy, and the combined magic of Allomancy between the two, maybe resonance.  Odium has voidbinding, Honor has Surges, and I'm not sure about Cultivation but we know a few others. Each of these magic systems differs based on what planet a shard inhabits and how Investiture is at work on that planet. 

So while humans originally lived on another planet they had access to voidbinding and misused it to the extreme. They destroyed their planet, fled to Roshar and were followed by Odium. Since they knew voidbinding was bad they stopped and began to follow Honor and Cultivation, but Odium corrupted the Parshendi and stuff happened. Desolation, more Desolation, KR form, misunderstanding over facts, Recreance.

Edited May 21, 2018 by jefftucker0525

[galendo]

Minor correction: Preservation had Allomancy, with Feruchemy presumably being due to the interaction between the two Shards.

I'd comment on your theory, but, um...I'm not really sure what it is.  Is it that each Shard has different magic system?  That each Shard's system is affected by the planet they're on?  The sequence in which humans and Odium came to Roshar?  Maybe you can clarify.

[jefftucker0525]

I appreciate it I'll try to change it. I'm sure I got a few other things things wrong too. My theory is that each Shard has it's own magic system and that humanities use of voidbinding is what destroyed their last planet. When they moved to Roshar humans forgoed the use of voidbinding but they began to take all the land. To fight back the Parshendi used Odiums  corrupted spren and voidbinding and began the desolation

[Calderis he/him]

The magic systems are not just "The Shard," but an interaction between the Shard and the planet in which it has invested. 

Assuming that Odium had invested into Ashyn (which I don't believe is the case, as he wouldn't want to diminish his power in any way, or tie himself to the system), the magic system that developed would have been something unique to that world. 

Seeing as we know what Ashyn magic is, the disease based powers, and there doesn't seem to be any of that on Roshar, I don't think that this is accurate. 

I think that the system on Ashyn was designed by Adonalsium, as was the rest of the Rosharan system, and was not altered by a Shard post shattering, but that is merely my opinion.

It may have been temporarily pushed by Odium to cause the cataclysm, but I don't think there was a full on Odium based magic system that developed there. It would have cost Odium more than he's been shown to willingly invest. 

[jefftucker0525]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

The magic systems are not just "The Shard," but an interaction between the Shard and the planet in which it has invested. 

Assuming that Odium had invested into Ashyn (which I don't believe is the case, as he wouldn't want to diminish his power in any way, or tie himself to the system), the magic system that developed would have been something unique to that world. 

 That's exactly what I was saying, or basically. I'm proposing that each shard "carries" a magic system that is able to be used by people on planets they invest in, but what planet they invest in changes how that magic system works slightly. I thought that was pretty clear lol. 

 

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

It may have been temporarily pushed by Odium to cause the cataclysm, but I don't think there was a full on Odium based magic system that developed there. It would have cost Odium more than he's been shown to willingly invest. 

He's already invested in Roshar as much as he would have had to invest in Ashyn, so he must be willing to invest atleast that much. 

[Calderis he/him]

49 minutes ago, jefftucker0525 said:

He's already invested in Roshar as much as he would have had to invest in Ashyn, so he must be willing to invest atleast that much. 

Except he's only done so because he's trapped. His presence over time forces him to invest. If he were able to leave, he wouldn't put any power into the system he didn't have to. Every ounce of power invested is power unavailable to be leveraged against his targets. 

Prior to being bound he'd remained on the move. He did not invest in the Rosharan system, or any of its planets, willingly. 

[MountainKing]

A shard can have multiple magic systems.

[jefftucker0525]

46 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except he's only done so because he's trapped. His presence over time forces him to invest. If he were able to leave, he wouldn't put any power into the system he didn't have to. Every ounce of power invested is power unavailable to be leveraged against his targets. 

Prior to being bound he'd remained on the move. He did not invest in the Rosharan system, or any of its planets, willingly. 

Quote

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)
#29 

 

 

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

From this WoB we know that a shard doesn't even have to invest in a planet for it's people to make use of its magic system. And while I still think Odium did invest in Ashyr, it doesn't look like he necessarily had to. Yes, he doesn't like to Invest in a planet, but we don't know why. Maybe it was a bad experience investing in a planet that made him that way.

 

22 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

A shard can have multiple magic systems.

How do you know this? 

[Angsos]

Jeff, he needs all his power, and possibly help even then, to kill shards. He killed, mortally wounded, Ambition and then killed and splintered Devotion and Dominion before getting stuck in the Rosharan system

[Calderis he/him]

@jefftucker0525 there is a difference between allowing someone to use his investiture, and investing in a planet.

As with Allomancy, or Stormlight usage, the investiture in those instances is not tied up, it flows through the user and returns to the Shard. 

Investing into a world is different. That power is bound up in the world and only retrievable through serious effort. 

Odium has avoided investing in world precisely because of that. Any power bound up in a world is unavailable for his use, and any power unavailable makes assaulting another shard more difficult. 

There's absolutely no reason Odium couldn't have temporarily used his investiture to supercharge an existing magic system, hich is what I believe happened on Ashyn. But creating his own is not something he wanted to happen because that requires power being bound into a world and unavailable for his use. 

[RShara she/her]

1 hour ago, jefftucker0525 said:

From this WoB we know that a shard doesn't even have to invest in a planet for it's people to make use of its magic system. And while I still think Odium did invest in Ashyr, it doesn't look like he necessarily had to. Yes, he doesn't like to Invest in a planet, but we don't know why. Maybe it was a bad experience investing in a planet that made him that way.

Quote

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

 

I'd just like to point out that the answer Brandon gave isn't necessarily the answer to the question by Kogiopsis. "Has he done this anywhere besides Roshar" is the question. Brandon doesn't say yes or no. He just says that Odium has been active on all other planets. Active could mean a number of things, including, but not necessarily meaning, that he made it possible for people to use magic that draws on him.

 

Autonomy has multiple magic systems tied to her, depending on the planet. Ashyn's magic system is notably different than Roshar's magic system, though the same principles still apply (bonds?).

[MountainKing]

2 hours ago, jefftucker0525 said:

From this WoB we know that a shard doesn't even have to invest in a planet for it's people to make use of its magic system. And while I still think Odium did invest in Ashyr, it doesn't look like he necessarily had to. Yes, he doesn't like to Invest in a planet, but we don't know why. Maybe it was a bad experience investing in a planet that made him that way.

 

How do you know this? 

@jefftucker0525

Quote

Questioner

What is Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard in specific? Yes, they talk about that in the books.

Questioner

Ok, it's like, of Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you could say that.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it seems like one Shard, one magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, it's more that-- They, in their philosophy, say that it's kind of a hybrid between the two, but you could kind of feel that it's more--

Questioner

It seems more Preservation.

Brandon Sanderson

It seems more Preservation, but in-world they think it's kind of a hybrid. The philosophy says that one was kind of net-positive, one was kind of net-negative and one was a hybrid. That's their in-world philosophy. I personally would place it more with Preservation.

Questioner

Ok so more than one magic system can be tied to one Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Questioner

Ok, that's what I wanted to know.

Brandon Sanderson

Here's the thing, the definition of magic system can be, is so fluid. Like you can look at this book and say "how many magic systems are there?". Is Surgebinding one or is it ten?

Questioner

Allomancy's 16--

Brandon Sanderson

Is Allomancy 16 or one, and things like that. So yes multiple magic systems can be tied to a Shard.

source

Edited May 21, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing a link

[Xtafa]

This is what always confused me. The planet was apparently rendered uninhabitable by Radiants, thus why they broke their bonds.

But this conflicts with the powers that have been detailed on Ashyn [The disease investiture] 

So either they only had the diseases and not surgebinding, thus defeating the entire bond issue or both branches of power were there, with odium generating the diseases and honor generating surge binding.  

[Calderis he/him]

@Xtafa it was only the disease magic.

Enough time had passed by the Recreance that they didn't have a memory of the powers, they just knew that "the surges" destroyed their previous world. 

It was a different magic system. 

Quote

Shardbound [PENDING REVIEW]

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

source

The system was the diseases, but the effects produced were still manifestations of the same forces. 

[Xtafa]

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

The system was the diseases, but the effects produced were still manifestations of the same forces. 

Thanks, the wording was bothering me for some time. That helps.

[Stark he/him]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

It was a different magic system.

I think it was a few things.  Specifically two elements that led to the scorching of the planet - The lack of the Radiant orders, and the surgebinders working in concert.

For the first element, surgebinders working in concert, we have seen something similar before - the formation of the Everstorm.  This was an action taken by a massive group of voidbinders working in concert to effect a massive, permanent change on the world.  So to wreck a planet, I'd think you'd need a massive amount of 'binders working together, or far more likely, working in opposition.  And if I am right, and 'binders working in opposition can have as terrible an outcome as 'binders working together, it becomes terrifying to look at the order splits along faction lines.  Skybreakers with Odium, Dustbringer(s?) with the diagram, many unaligned.  Take a Skybreaker and a Windrunner in opposition.  Have them lash the same stone in different directions, what happens?  DO the Lashings cancel each other, or do the opposing forces rip the stone apart?

The other element we keep hearing is that Ishar forced the surgebinders to form orders or be destroyed.  To take oaths that bound them with checks and balances.  Which makes me think that the nature of the Nahel bond between sprin and 'binder prevents them from obtaining world-cracking power.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

6 hours ago, Stark said:

I think it was a few things.  Specifically two elements that led to the scorching of the planet - The lack of the Radiant orders, and the surgebinders working in concert.

For the first element, surgebinders working in concert, we have seen something similar before - the formation of the Everstorm.  This was an action taken by a massive group of voidbinders working in concert to effect a massive, permanent change on the world.  So to wreck a planet, I'd think you'd need a massive amount of 'binders working together, or far more likely, working in opposition.  And if I am right, and 'binders working in opposition can have as terrible an outcome as 'binders working together, it becomes terrifying to look at the order splits along faction lines.  Skybreakers with Odium, Dustbringer(s?) with the diagram, many unaligned.  Take a Skybreaker and a Windrunner in opposition.  Have them lash the same stone in different directions, what happens?  DO the Lashings cancel each other, or do the opposing forces rip the stone apart?

The other element we keep hearing is that Ishar forced the surgebinders to form orders or be destroyed.  To take oaths that bound them with checks and balances.  Which makes me think that the nature of the Nahel bond between sprin and 'binder prevents them from obtaining world-cracking power.

There were no surgebinders on Ashyn. The only magic there was the disease magic and, while it followed similar principles, was not the same thing as surgebinding.

Also, we don't know that what the Parshendi did in summoning the Everstorm was an act of voidbinding. That was simply them using the powers from a form of power. Personally, I don't think we've seen voidbinding yet. What the Fused do feels too much like surgebinding and the forms of power for the Singers are part of their natural life, not from an external magic system.

[MountainKing]

I feel that for most surges voidbinding will work for the same for most surges, with minor differencees, remember the singers had access to surges via natural spren they were just forbidden to use them, so I think that Honor and Odium's just made with easier, more consistent, and allowed humans to use the surges.

[Calderis he/him]

After the end of Words of Radiance, we'd been told we hadn't seen Voidbinding yet. 

From February 2016

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

I agree with @StrikerEZ in that we haven't really seen it yet.

I think the only instance of voidbinding we have seen is Renarin's windows. 

[MountainKing]

But we didn't see the fused till oathbringer, and they use voidlight.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

But we didn't see the fused till oathbringer, and they use voidlight.

Yes, and their surges seem to work remarkably similar to surgebinding, so similar in fact that I think they're the same thing. 

Renarin's windows, in contrast, are drastically different and he's been completely unable to use the surge of illumination as Shallan does, despite the fact that he should have access to it as a Truthwatcher. 

I think that his windows are the Voidbinding expression of the surge of Illumination, and that other voidbinding surges will function just as differently. 

[MountainKing]

But how will the surge of gravity work different, Kaladin has already changed the direction of gravity and and an objects's gravitational pull, unless voidbinding is mostly the cognitive and spiritual versions of the surges there isn't much we haven't seen.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

45 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

But how will the surge of gravity work different, Kaladin has already changed the direction of gravity and and an objects's gravitational pull, unless voidbinding is mostly the cognitive and spiritual versions of the surges there isn't much we haven't seen.

I don't think there's as huge of a difference as @Calderis between voidbinding and surgebinding versions of the surges. Personally, I think that Renarin's visions are a weird version of the normal Truthwatcher's Resonance, which I believe to be the ability to see the truth. Since Renarin is unique (as I think he has one surgebinding surge and one voidbinding surge), he would have a different Resonance, which is his future visions. I do agree with Calderis that we probably haven't seen voidbinding yet, unless what Renarin did with the thunderclast in Thaylen City was somehow voidbinding.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Renarin's windows, in contrast, are drastically different and he's been completely unable to use the surge of illumination as Shallan does, despite the fact that he should have access to it as a Truthwatcher.

One thing we can infer from the Gem Archive is that Renarin is not the first Truthwatcher fo have bonded a 'corrupted' spren. A 'particularly small emerald' had the following recording: Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this. Since this was contemporary with the other recordings, it must have been made at a time when there were lots of Radiants who would know what a Truthwatcher is supposed to be able to do. I suspect that they must have been able to pass for 'normal' which suggests an ability to use something close enough to typical Illumination to fake it. There's also the fact that Renarin's ability sounds like the Truthwatcher resonance of seeing 'what is' (per Ivory's comment and implications from the in-universe Words of Radiance) but with a spin on it that he sees the future. I kind of like @StrikerEZ's suggestion that Renarin's windows are the Truthwatcher Resonance, altered by his spren being touched by Odium.

On the broader issue of Voidbinding, we have Kaladin's thoughts that the Fused aren't moving quite like he does but he's still able to understand how they're 'flying' and Szeth is able to use his own knowledge of all the Surges to anticipate and counter the actions of the Fused that are playing keep-away with the King's Drop. If what the Fused do is Voidbinding, it's clearly not too different from Surgebinding, just accessing the power via a different Shard. It's also possible that they're actually Surgebinding fueled with Voidlight as a 'hack' of sorts, with the differences being similar in nature to how Tension for a Stoneward works differently than it does for a Bondsmith. Brandon seems to have identified Renarin's visions as Voidbinding but he's been deliberately vague on specifics and a later WoB has him not answer the question of whether he was actually doing Voidbinding, both being answers to Argent. So it's up in the air right now and Brandon seems happy to keep it that way.

[galendo]

Okay, I gotta admit that I'm pretty lost in this thread, but I did have a few questions based on other people's comments.

On 5/21/2018 at 8:58 AM, Calderis said:

@jefftucker0525

As with Allomancy, or Stormlight usage, the investiture in those instances is not tied up, it flows through the user and returns to the Shard. 

Investing into a world is different. That power is bound up in the world and only retrievable through serious effort. 

If this is true, does a magic system have anything to do with whether a Shard has Invested?  I mean, when the metal gets burned the power goes back to Preservation, when the Stormlight gets used the power goes back to Honor, when someone dies the Breath goes back to Endowment, when the Aon does its thing the power flows back to the Dor.  It seems like the power's pretty much always flowing right back to the Shard.  Some might take a little bit longer than others (Breath takes longer than Stormlight, for instance), but it all seems to happen pretty quickly on the timescale of Shards.

Is the "Investing" part maybe the method by which the power gets accessed?  The spren, for instance, rather than the Stormlight?

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think the only instance of voidbinding we have seen is Renarin's windows. 

So everyone else seems to know exactly what you mean, but...what windows are we talking about?  I don't remember any windows.  His visions of the future?

7 hours ago, Weltall said:

One thing we can infer from the Gem Archive is that Renarin is not the first Truthwatcher fo have bonded a 'corrupted' spren. A 'particularly small emerald' had the following recording: Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this. Since this was contemporary with the other recordings, it must have been made at a time when there were lots of Radiants who would know what a Truthwatcher is supposed to be able to do. I suspect that they must have been able to pass for 'normal' which suggests an ability to use something close enough to typical Illumination to fake it. There's also the fact that Renarin's ability sounds like the Truthwatcher resonance of seeing 'what is' (per Ivory's comment and implications from the in-universe Words of Radiance) but with a spin on it that he sees the future. I kind of like @StrikerEZ's suggestion that Renarin's windows are the Truthwatcher Resonance, altered by his spren being touched by Odium.

This doesn't seem to follow to me.  Well, maybe if you believe that seeing the future is entirely of Odium, but we know that Honor could do it too and that Cultivation was better at it than Honor was.  Since Truthwatchers seem to be the Order closest to Cultivation next to the Edgedancers, it doesn't seem much of a stretch to conclude that the Truthwatchers could see glimpses of the future naturally.  They probably just weren't supposed to talk about it much.