[OB] What's up with those Honorspren?

[Lightspine]

Hey guys, so I noticed something really odd going on. In Chapter 37, which is from Rock's perspective, a bunch of Honorspren appear on the neighboring plateau to watch Bridge Four training. From Rock's count, there are over two dozen Honorspren there. What I find curious re-reading this chapter was that it seems impossible and contradicts what Syl claims about Honorspren later in the book. In Chapter 91, Syl tells Kaladin:

Quote

"In Shadesmar, we can think on our own, but if we go to your realm, we need a human bond. Otherwise, we're practically as mindless as those gloryspren."

The spren appearing on the Plateau do not appear to have bonded anybody, and yet they were not mindless (as far as I can tell anyway, they didn't act like Syl did when she was mindless). In addition, they are definitely in the Physical Realm. It's possible that Rock can see spren that are in the Cognitive Realm, but these spren did not appear in their Cognitive Realm forms, and many of them rather appear as Syl does - taking the shape of leaves or other objects blown on the wind. (No Honorspren has been shown doing that inside the Cognitive Realm). Their invisibility to everybody else does not indicate they are in the Cognitive, although it is possible that this means they are closer to the Cognitive realm than a fully physical object. (Let me remind you that a mostly mindless Syl, acting like a windspren, was not visible to humans other than Kaladin when he was being transported to the Shattered Plains as a slave.)

These Honorspren do have an ability which I think acts as an answer though, and its something we've never seen Syl do - take in Stormlight. The important Honorspren (Syl tells Rock that her name is Phendorana) sucks in Stormlight from a sphere! So my only theory why these Honorspren are appearing in the Physical Realm, but not mindless, is something to do with this Stormlight. Concentrated Investure can be used to pierce the barrier between the Cognitive and Physical Realms, so isn't it possible to use Investure to stay "linked" to the Cognitive Realm somehow?
Anyway I have no real information or proof on this, I'd like to know if you guys think this is possible or provide your own reasoning!

[MountainKing]

So sentient spren can enter the physical realm with none to little mental damage, but it requires other spren to help them. Syl didn't get help because it was again the norms when she did it,but after the stormfather  bonded Dalinar, the opinion is shifting.

[Gasper]

Maybe those are the Honor spren of some of the squires from Bridge Four? Since they are appearing like Syl, it is likely that they have a connection to the physical realm. Because of the damage the original Radiants did, it is possible that they are being similar to High Spren and checking out their bond partners before continuing.

[Lightspine]

24 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

So sentient spren can enter the physical realm with none to little mental damage, but it requires other spren to help them.

Oh, when did we learn about this? I'm curious, I missed whatever quote or WoB this info came from. Thanks for the info though!

6 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Maybe those are the Honor spren of some of the squires from Bridge Four? Since they are appearing like Syl, it is likely that they have a connection to the physical realm. Because of the damage the original Radiants did, it is possible that they are being similar to High Spren and checking out their bond partners before continuing.

Um, I don't think they're bonded to the Bridgemen yet, because the Bridgemen can't see them. Kaladin could see Syl even before he swore the first oath and while she was still mostly mindless, unlike the spren here. But yes, they're almost certainly behaving like those Highspren. I'm curious as to how they're there rather than why.

[Naurock]

16 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Hey guys, so I noticed something really odd going on. In Chapter 37, which is from Rock's perspective, a bunch of Honorspren appear on the neighboring plateau to watch Bridge Four training. From Rock's count, there are over two dozen Honorspren there. What I find curious re-reading this chapter was that it seems impossible and contradicts what Syl claims about Honorspren later in the book. In Chapter 91, Syl tells Kaladin:

The spren appearing on the Plateau do not appear to have bonded anybody, and yet they were not mindless (as far as I can tell anyway, they didn't act like Syl did when she was mindless). In addition, they are definitely in the Physical Realm. It's possible that Rock can see spren that are in the Cognitive Realm, but these spren did not appear in their Cognitive Realm forms, and many of them rather appear as Syl does - taking the shape of leaves or other objects blown on the wind. (No Honorspren has been shown doing that inside the Cognitive Realm). Their invisibility to everybody else does not indicate they are in the Cognitive, although it is possible that this means they are closer to the Cognitive realm than a fully physical object. (Let me remind you that a mostly mindless Syl, acting like a windspren, was not visible to humans other than Kaladin when he was being transported to the Shattered Plains as a slave.)

These Honorspren do have an ability which I think acts as an answer though, and its something we've never seen Syl do - take in Stormlight. The important Honorspren (Syl tells Rock that her name is Phendorana) sucks in Stormlight from a sphere! So my only theory why these Honorspren are appearing in the Physical Realm, but not mindless, is something to do with this Stormlight. Concentrated Investure can be used to pierce the barrier between the Cognitive and Physical Realms, so isn't it possible to use Investure to stay "linked" to the Cognitive Realm somehow?
Anyway I have no real information or proof on this, I'd like to know if you guys think this is possible or provide your own reasoning!

Rock is also the only one that can see them, due to being a Horneater. We've had several instances of Spren spying on potential Radiants. Elhokar talks about seeing things in the corners of his eyes (later revealed to be Cryptics). Jasnah sees Ivory in the prologue to Words of Radiance and then is pulled into Shadesmar.

I think while scouting Radiants they glimpse into the Physical Realm without losing their memories before bonding.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Naurock
Change epilogue to prologue. Thanks Mountainking and go_go_gradget

[MountainKing]

I believe Wyndle said an offhand comment about this, and Pattern maybe said something about this as well.

Edited May 14, 2018 by MountainKing
Fixing Grammar

[Lightspine]

1 hour ago, Naurock said:

Rock is also the only one that can see them, due to being a Horneater. We've had several instances of Spren spying on potential Radiants. Elhokar talks about seeing things in the corners of his eyes (later revealed to be Cryptics). Jasnah sees Ivory in the epilogue to Words of Radiance and then is pulled into Shadesmar.

I think while scouting Radiants they glimpse into the Physical Realm without losing their memories before bonding.

Good point! This isn't a first, but it only now seemed odd after Syl's comments. Why I think those examples aren't completely representative though is that none of the Bridgemen seem to notice any of the Honorspren. Following the examples you gave, each Honorspren should be visible to one of the Bridgemen (other than Rock), right? Perhaps they just didn't notice. I would say that the Cryptics and Ivory have already started the process of bonding while these Honorspren haven't, but if you dispute that I can see your point of view.

Perhaps the Honorspren were drawn there somehow, as the squires "called them" the same way Kaladin called Syl, and somehow were able to pass between realms in the same way that windspren were summoned by Kaladin in the Cognitive Realm? But we don't know the mechanism for that either.

And what could be the mechanism for glimpsing? None of the spren in Shadesmar later in the book demonstrated this ability, and if Syl were able to do it it would have been useful at some points on their journey (such as when they reached the Thaylen City Oathgate). Because of this, I think the stormlight is involved somehow.

[MountainKing]

Jasnah and Ivory were already bonded at that time.

[go_go_gragdet]

19 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

Jasnah and Ivory were already bonded at that time.

I think Naurock meant "prologue" and not "epilogue". Here's the bit in the WoR prologue:

Quote

 

[...] several distant shadows—originating in an intersection up ahead—stirred to life. Her breath caught. Those shadows lengthened, deepened. Figures formed from them, growing, standing, rising.

Stormfather. I’m going insane.

One took the shape of a man of midnight blackness, though he had a certain reflective cast, as if he were made of oil. No . . . of some other liquid with a coating of oil floating on the outside, giving him a dark, prismatic quality. [...]

 

 

[Solant]

It could be something simple, like maybe Syl stated that line as fact but was just mistaken due to her "youth" and inexperience. I do like the idea that storm light  has something to do with it. Plus we don't have any evidence that Wyndle, Stormfather, and maybe Ivory suffered any memory loss at the time of bonding, so there is possible precedent for this.

[Naurock]

8 hours ago, go_go_gragdet said:

I think Naurock meant "prologue" and not "epilogue". Here's the bit in the WoR prologue:

 

 

[Leyrann]

6 hours ago, Solant said:

It could be something simple, like maybe Syl stated that line as fact but was just mistaken due to her "youth" and inexperience. I do like the idea that storm light  has something to do with it. Plus we don't have any evidence that Wyndle, Stormfather, and maybe Ivory suffered any memory loss at the time of bonding, so there is possible precedent for this.

Wyndle explicitly went through special precautions together with other cultivationspren to avoid memory loss, the Stormfather is a special case as Bondsmith spren, and we don't know enough about Ivory. Meanwhile, we know at least of Pattern that he lost his memories, and Glys is also unsure of a lot of things, though his corruption may be part of that.

[Solant]

12 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Wyndle explicitly went through special precautions together with other cultivationspren to avoid memory loss

There you go. We know it has been done, therefore it can be done. I expect the honorspren in question probably did something similar.

[RShara]

I don't think those spren had transitioned completely to the Physical Realm yet. They were kind of...peeking into the Physical Realm a little bit to observe. Similar to how the Cryptics were hanging around Shallan and Elhokar. Just as some humans can see a bit into the Cognitive, it seems reasonable that spren can see a bit into the Physical without transitioning fully. Transitioning fully is what causes them to lose their sapience without the bond.

[Lightspine]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think those spren had transitioned completely to the Physical Realm yet. They were kind of...peeking into the Physical Realm a little bit to observe. Similar to how the Cryptics were hanging around Shallan and Elhokar. Just as some humans can see a bit into the Cognitive, it seems reasonable that spren can see a bit into the Physical without transitioning fully. Transitioning fully is what causes them to lose their sapience without the bond.

Hmm, I disagreed with this because their appearance was completely identical to Syl's (in terms of their shapes and such) but its a point you could argue.

[Solant]

12 hours ago, RShara said:

I don't think those spren had transitioned completely to the Physical Realm yet. They were kind of...peeking into the Physical Realm a little bit to observe. Similar to how the Cryptics were hanging around Shallan and Elhokar. Just as some humans can see a bit into the Cognitive, it seems reasonable that spren can see a bit into the Physical without transitioning fully. Transitioning fully is what causes them to lose their sapience without the bond.

Like peeking in the window vs walking in the front door.

[RShara]

23 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

Hmm, I disagreed with this because their appearance was completely identical to Syl's (in terms of their shapes and such) but its a point you could argue.

We don't know how far into the Physical they were. Clearly, enough to observe, and to take on various forms, but not enough to lose their sapience. Shallan and Elhokar both saw Cryptics around them before their full bonding. And the Cryptics were transitioned enough that they could see and at least try to touch physical objects, like looking down an elevator shaft, or reaching out to touch Shallan.

Edited May 15, 2018 by RShara

[Lightspine]

17 hours ago, RShara said:

We don't know how far into the Physical they were. Clearly, enough to observe, and to take on various forms, but not enough to lose their sapience. Shallan and Elhokar both saw Cryptics around them before their full bonding. And the Cryptics were transitioned enough that they could see and at least try to touch physical objects, like looking down an elevator shaft, or reaching out to touch Shallan.

That could totally be what's happening. What made me think it could be something else was that those Cryptics still appeared as symbolheaded people (like they do in Shadesmar) rather than their physical realm manifestation but that doesn't make what you suggest impossible. I was mostly trying to fit together this stuff with the stormlight that the spren sucked in.

[Yata]

Well Honorspren's look doesn't change too much between PR and CR It's hard to say where are there based only of look.

We know also that people with different degree of Connections to CR will see the Spren differently.

For example Lift sees the Spren a bit different from everyone else.

[Llarimar]

On 5/14/2018 at 8:49 AM, RShara said:

I don't think those spren had transitioned completely to the Physical Realm yet. They were kind of...peeking into the Physical Realm a little bit to observe. Similar to how the Cryptics were hanging around Shallan and Elhokar. Just as some humans can see a bit into the Cognitive, it seems reasonable that spren can see a bit into the Physical without transitioning fully. Transitioning fully is what causes them to lose their sapience without the bond.

This is my thought too - that the honorspren are just peeking at the Physical Realm.  But as Lightspine says...

On 5/13/2018 at 7:57 PM, Lightspine said:

And what could be the mechanism for glimpsing? None of the spren in Shadesmar later in the book demonstrated this ability, and if Syl were able to do it it would have been useful at some points on their journey (such as when they reached the Thaylen City Oathgate). Because of this, I think the stormlight is involved somehow.

Quite a large portion of Oathbringer took place in Shadesmar, and yet there is still a lot that we don't know about the connections between the two Realms.  No spren in Shadesmar are shown peeking into the Physical Realm, like the honorspren seem to be doing on the Shattered Plains.  For higher spren, can they glimpse at the Physical Realm intentionally, or can they only inadvertently be drawn into the Physical Realm because they are attracted to certain characteristics, like lower spren?  Did the "honor" of the Bridgemen (and Syl's link to Kaladin) draw them into the Physical Realm, in the same way that Syl was drawn to Kaladin by his honorable behavior, or did the spren intentionally visit the Physical Realm to observe the Bridgemen of their own volition?  Of course, we saw Shadesmar through the eyes of humans, and so perhaps the spren have the ability to see through the Realms when the humans wouldn't have noticed it - but you'd think it would still be something that Syl or Pattern would at least have mentioned.  EDIT: Or maybe not, of course... spren don't seem to offer information unless specifically asked.  

Edited May 16, 2018 by Llarimar

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

I think that each honorspren that came was Called to a specific bridgeman, Syl heard Kaladin desire and come to him . Yes Kaladin saw her but she chose to reveal herself . I think the honorspren came because of Syl . She was not suppose to leave and she did anyway and bonded Kaladin . So they felt if the disobedient daughter was allowed to bond a human and was not punished. They see Syl as a child , so they felt if anyone should be allowed a bond it should be them , slowly they will reveal themselves to the person that drew their attention . Teft and The Lopen already have theirs . I bet everyone in bridge 4 will rise up as a full Radiant each in charge of a bridge crew of squires. I think everyone except Rock and Rlain will Be Windrunners