teknopathetic he/him Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) Theory The unMade were once Made. My guess is that the 10 Made were representations of Singer Rhythms instead of representations of void-emotions. The Singers predate humanity, and spren of singer-rhythms should have existed. When, or around the same time as, the Singers jumped onto Odium's bandwagon, most of the Made were unMade. Premise: 1. Odium wouldn't want to use too much of his power in creating a splinter. Likely he used a stem. 2. The unMade were once something not of Odium, and Odium Corrupted them. 3. Likely there were 10 Made as that is the common number on Roshar. 4. Singers were on Roshar way before Cultivation, Honour, or humans. 5. There were spren on Roshar before the arrival of Honour and Cultivation (WOB at the bottom of this page) 6. Singer ideas would not manifest the same way as human emotions, though now that there is intermixing those distinction may be less clear. 7. The rhythms can be heard off of Roshar and there are other species that utilize the rhythms in the Cosmere. (WOB) Questions: 1. Though the storms predate the shattering, does the Stormfather? Does the Nightwatcher? Does the Sibling? Do the Made? 2. Were there 10 Made and the Sibling is a uncorrupted sibling to the unMade? 3.Were there 10 Made and one uncorrupted Made is still flopping around (the Iri Spren?) 4. What are the Nightwatcher and The Stormfather? Are they entirely new, or are they like a new generation of Made? Are they old Made? 5. Were the Made related to the Rhythms? If spren predate Odium's passion, and the appearance of humans. perhaps old spren are closer to things like "resolve". ---- Known Made Ashertmarn : The Heart of the Revel - Rhythm-spren of amusement? Ba-Ado-Mishram: Rhythm-spren of supplication as she is a "princess" Dai-Gonarthis: ? Moleach: ? Associated with foresight. Nergoual: Rhythm-spren of resolve or victory? Re-Shephire: Rhythm of curiosity (she is described as being curious) Sja-Anat The Taker of Secrets: Rhthm of the terrors? Yelignar Blightwind - Rhythem-spren of peace (as it consumes others with hate and instability) Chemorath:? Possible Made - We only have 9 and there should be at least a 10th. Sibling: ? Cusicesh the Protector: Rhythm of remembrance or Of the Lost? He appears at the same time each day and looks toward the origin while displaying a number of faces. Stormfather: Rhythm of winds? Nightwatcher: Rhythm of amusement? consideration? Known Old (not power) Rhythms: Remembrance excitement praise irritation annoyance reprimand supplication derision pleading Amusement joy remembrance winds victory skepticism mourning curiosity Resolve. peace satisfaction supplication tension confidence peace of the lost anxiety awe consideration the terrors ---- WOBs yulerule The parshendi didn’t have the emotions like Contempt, Ridicule [etc. before the Everstorm?] Brandon Sanderson They did have those emotions, but they didn’t match them to the Rhythms the same way. A wide variety of emotions can be matched to a rhythm. It doesn’t mean they didn’t have those emotions. yulerule So you are saying that, like Ridicule is a new version of Amusement, they could have used ridicule but say it to Amusement? [...] Brandon Sanderson Yes. yulerule And that’s a harsher form, Ridicule? Brandon Sanderson That is just how the rhythms are named. I’ll leave it to your interpretation whether they are harsher or not. A rhythm is just a beat. Whether it is harsh or not depends on the interpretation of the person listening to it. But yes, you could have ridiculed people to Amusement before. yulerule But you have new rhythms. Brandon Sanderson You have new rhythms which have a different feel to them. Thadamin Do Shards need to be based on the same planet to create the interactions that made Feruchemy possible? If the Parshendi are not originally from Odium and are referred to as the Ancient Ones by spren, then would that make the original Parshendi, bonded to the Splinters that existed before Honor and Cultivation arrived, the Dawnsingers? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Edited May 3, 2018 by teknopathetic 2
Gasper he/him Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 The Made could be the Heralds. In Christian Beliefs, the number seven is a repeating theme. Six is a number the is considered imperfect and is thus alligned with evil, example:666. I think that the numbers 10 and 9 are similar on Roshar. 10 heralds made by Honor and Nine Unmade made by Odium. The Unmade being an imperfect reflection of the Heralds. 3
teknopathetic he/him Posted May 3, 2018 Author Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Gasper said: The Made could be the Heralds. In Christian Beliefs, the number seven is a repeating theme. Six is a number the is considered imperfect and is thus alligned with evil, example:666. I think that the numbers 10 and 9 are similar on Roshar. 10 heralds made by Honor and Nine Unmade made by Odium. The Unmade being an imperfect reflection of the Heralds. I think the Made predate the Heralds (most likely), but I don't have specific proof. Are you saying there were no "made", and that the Unmade are just evil aspects of the Heralds? Like some kind of bad consequence? The name 'unmade' doesn't lend itself to your idea, but it is possible. Edited May 3, 2018 by teknopathetic
Angsos Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 well sja-anat says they were made and then unmade. She might be lying but why. I do agree that the Made were associated with the singers pre-humans and there were only 9. Didn't I see people saying Taln wasn't supposed to be a Herald so maybe there were only going to be 9. Taln made 10 and then later 10 was declared holy, 9 declared evil, all by the church and there you go.
go_go_gragdet Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 Quote What were the Made? They were good fellas. Wise guys. 2
Patrick Star Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 I still agree with the "Unmade are Heralds" theory
teknopathetic he/him Posted May 4, 2018 Author Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Angsos said: well sja-anat says they were made and then unmade. She might be lying but why. I do agree that the Made were associated with the singers pre-humans and there were only 9. Didn't I see people saying Taln wasn't supposed to be a Herald so maybe there were only going to be 9. Taln made 10 and then later 10 was declared holy, 9 declared evil, all by the church and there you go. Nine is a number associated with Odium, so it would be odd if there were 9 Made to begin with. The Made should predate Odium (almost assuredly) Edited May 4, 2018 by teknopathetic
teknopathetic he/him Posted May 4, 2018 Author Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Patrick Star said: I still agree with the "Unmade are Heralds" theory Is your theory that when Honour made the heralds, Odium got to make 9 unmade out of the souls of the heralds? Or that the unmade showed up when the heralds quit, and there are 9 because Taln never quit? Edited May 4, 2018 by teknopathetic
Philomath she/her Posted May 5, 2018 Posted May 5, 2018 1 hour ago, teknopathetic said: Is your theory that when Honour made the heralds, Odium got to make 9 unmade out of the souls of the heralds? Or that the unmade showed up when the heralds quit, and there are 9 because Taln never quit? I'm not sure if I agree with the Unmade/Heralds theory but it would be interesting if the Everstorm was a tenth unmade now that Taln has broken. The everstorm is new specifically this time and wasn't summoned until after he had returned.
Bort he/him Posted May 5, 2018 Posted May 5, 2018 My theory on the Unmade is that they were created out of fragments of the Heralds, possibly when they were broken on Braize. The link to the discussion is in my signature.
Patrick Star Posted May 5, 2018 Posted May 5, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bort said: My theory on the Unmade is that they were created out of fragments of the Heralds, possibly when they were broken on Braize. The link to the discussion is in my signature. Yup, I'm still repping your theory 16 hours ago, teknopathetic said: Is your theory that when Honour made the heralds, Odium got to make 9 unmade out of the souls of the heralds? Or that the unmade showed up when the heralds quit, and there are 9 because Taln never quit? The discussion's linked in Bort's signature, but I'll give the quick version. Each unmade is formed from a Herald's soul when they break. Because of this, the theory states that each Herald's madness corresponds to an unmade, as that unmade has what they lack. For example, Ashertmarn was likely formed from Nale, as it is the heart of the revel, and Nale lacks emotion. Similarly, Ba-Ado-Mishram was likely formed from Ishar due to the leadership roles they both possess. In addition, an extension of the theory is that when a herald broke multiple times, this added to the unmade that was already created, which is why some unmade have dashes in their name. The number of dashes corresponds to how many times that Herald broke (no dashes being once, one dash twice, and two dashes three times). So looking at the two unmade given before, the theory would say that Nale only broke once, as Ashertmarn has no dashes in its name. However, Ishar would have broken three times. Interestingly, if we assume this theory, add all of the unmade together, and look at how many dashes each name has, that would peg our current desolation (the one with the everstorm happening right now) as being the 16th Desolation. And we all know how significant the number 16 is in the Cosmere. We also know from a WoB that the 99 desolations story is wrong, and the actual number was far less than that, which 15/16 definitely fits. Edited May 5, 2018 by Patrick Star 3
Gasper he/him Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 But we know that there where more than 16 desolations before the curretn one based on a passage in Oathbringer.
Patrick Star Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Gasper said: But we know that there where more than 16 desolations before the curretn one based on a passage in Oathbringer. No, we don't. The number 99 was made up, the actual number was much lower. There's a WoB on it. Past that, we don't know the exact number. http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Desolation
Bort he/him Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Gasper said: But we know that there where more than 16 desolations before the curretn one based on a passage in Oathbringer. The number is of Desolations is never mentioned, it is just implied it is 'lots'. But, when you are thinking about world-breaking horrific cataclysms, 16 is quite a few. Plus, with less and less time between each one (until the Heralds broke the Oathpact and gave Roshar a break), the knowledge that would have survived even at the end of the last Desolation would have long since faded into legend and lore by the time WoK rolls around. It's perfectly feasible for there to have only been fifteen Desolations, but the characters believing there to have been many more. On 03/05/2018 at 7:46 PM, teknopathetic said: Moleach: ? Associated with foresight. While I prefer my theory on the Heralds, I'm not going to discount your idea. It actually has a lot of potential when considered, since it is never really explained how Odium tempted and corrupted the original Singers. Unmaking something from their rhythms could provide a way. Moelach, associated with foresight... Rhythm of anticipation, perhaps? Literally, looking forward to something. Edited May 6, 2018 by Bort
Angsos Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 How do why know 9 is associated with Odium. I remember characters 9 is bad but I don't remember how we know.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Angsos said: How do why know 9 is associated with Odium. I remember characters 9 is bad but I don't remember how we know. The nine Unmade, and probably a WoB.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted May 6, 2018 Posted May 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Angsos said: How do why know 9 is associated with Odium. I remember characters 9 is bad but I don't remember how we know. Braize(where Odium and co. reside) is 9-centric. There are 9 Splinters of Odium(the Unmade). From Hessi's Mythica, "9 is an unholy number, and often associated with [Odium]." There are more parallels to nine, but these are the main three. 1
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