Wandering Investor Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 New quote concerning Shallan's family. Spoiler Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Um, yes. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Was it a [the corrupt]? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. source Brandon has in the past hinted that Odium might have influenced Shallan's family, but now we have confirmation that it was through an unmade. Problem is, I don't know which of the unmade could have caused what we see. So is this one of the as of yet unseen unmade at work? Ba-Ado-Mishram, Chemoarish, or Dai-Gonarthis? A death rattles mentions "....The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!". Shallan's family lives in a very negative atmosphere, perhaps Dai-Gonarthis put them in this state to feast on their negative emotions? 3
Windrunner2319 Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 I doubt that it was Ba-Ado-Mishram. I think the Chemoarish is the best candidate because it just seems something Brandon would do, placing an Unmade pretty much in plain sight, and then reveal it four-five books later. It could be Dai-Gonarthis though. 1
RShara she/her Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 I wonder if it could be Ashertmann. Giving in to vice. Shallan's father gives in to his anger, Balat to torturing small animals, Jushu to gambling, etc. 5
Weltall Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 Of the ones we know, Ashtermarn feels the most likely and there's some interesting resonance with the voice Shallan hears (which appears to be this Unmade) addressing her by name, which is interesting since Ashtermarn is said to be one of the 'mindless' ones. This could be a hint that he's been observing Shallan for longer than just her trip to Kholinar. Or that some other force was providing that voice, but that's a whole other kettle of cremling claws. xD 1
Windrunner2319 Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, RShara said: I wonder if it could be Ashertmann. Giving in to vice. Shallan's father gives in to his anger, Balat to torturing small animals, Jushu to gambling, etc. I forgot about Ashertmarn. That would make perfect sense.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 It could also be The Thrill, maybe? Maybe the rages her father went into were Thrilly?
RShara she/her Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, teknopathetic said: It could also be The Thrill, maybe? Maybe the rages her father went into were Thrilly? The Thrill was pretty entrenched in Alethkar until recently. 1
Wandering Investor Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, RShara said: I wonder if it could be Ashertmann. Giving in to vice. Shallan's father gives in to his anger, Balat to torturing small animals, Jushu to gambling, etc. I considered that, as there is a pattern to compulsive habits. But all of the observed Ashertmann effects seemed to revolve around weakening inhibitions, not caring, pleasure, and generally positive emotions. The effects seen on Shallan's household include the compulsive habits, but not the others. They're negative emotions grow enough to overcome inhibitions, but the inhibitions themselves don't seem to be attacked. They also still seems to care, too much at times, and none of they're compulsive habits seems to result in pleasure. The involved emotions are much more negative in nature. Instead of a theme of self-indulgence, the Shallan family has a theme of self-destructive(anger, torture, and gambling).
dvoraen Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, RShara said: I wonder if it could be Ashertmann. Giving in to vice. Shallan's father gives in to his anger, Balat to torturing small animals, Jushu to gambling, etc. Right now, I'm thinking it's either Sja-anat or Nergaoul, with the scales leaning heavily towards the latter. Sja-anat feels a bit like an anachronism but I think there is evidence supporting this. Sja-anat I say Sja-anat partly because she seems to have an explicit interest in Shallan and Shallan alone, which really seems kind of weird to me (and makes me suspicious of Unmade precognition getting involved). Shallan is the only person who has had contact with Sja-anat, and no one else could see her "reflection" in the mirror while speaking to Shallan at the Oathgate in Kholinar. This to me implies there's a special Connection here, including the corrupted gloryspren managing to find exactly where Shallan is in Shadesmar. That does not seem like a coincidence. Not only that, there is also the matter of Sja-anat being given the epithet of Taker of Secrets. Why that is, is still a question I can't answer, but I can't help but wonder if it has to do with Lyn Davar's secret (his daughter killed his wife) attracting the attention of Sja-anat in the first place. But there's a big problem with it being Sja-anat: no evidence of corrupted spren has been observed until Kholinar's siege*. This feels like a pretty big giveaway that Sja-anat was imprisoned, has been dormant, or was actually trapped on Braize somehow. It's also entirely possible that Sja-anat was the Unmade that Gavilar Kholin found and Aesudan released her. Regardless, Sja-anat does not appear to have been active on Roshar (that we know) before Oathbringer. Nergaoul Nergaoul is my other, and primary candidate for a Steris-list of reasons: 1) People consumed by Nergaoul repeatedly and over time have been shown to have a strong inclination for violent and/or aggressive and/or competitive behavior. Dalinar and other Alethi are the prime examples, and we've seen plenty of evidence of this in the books so I'm not going to repeat it. 2) Shallan's father exhibited very similar traits to Dalinar regarding anger, up to and including violence towards others as well as eventually "competing" with other Vedan aristocrats. 3) Nergaoul is active on Roshar, and has been shown to wander around a bit, particularly between Alethkar and Jah Keved. * Glys makes this timeline really hard to pin down, but I can't help but wonder if Sja-anat was actually active near the Shattered Plains. Edited April 25, 2018 by dvoraen
Angsos Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 Since Brandon said there was more going on in House Davar, I take the author's but wouldn't Pattern have noticed and done something to be noticed. Also I don't seeing it being the thrill because Dalinar almost attacks Gavilar in Thrill-madness yet her father never Ever attacks Shallan.
Wandering Investor Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, dvoraen said: I'm thinking it's either Sja-anat or Nergaoul Sja-anat has only been show to be able to corrupt, or "enlighten", spren and not people. Nergaoul creates the thrill, which is a battle lust, notably different from the childrens' actions. Even Shallan's father only seems to hurt people out of anger, not battle lust. But of course, we don't know everything about the unmade, so can't fully cancel them out. wouldn't Pattern have noticed and done something to be noticed. Pattern was noticed, that's why Shallan's mother tried to kill her. After her mother's death, Shallan's bond with pattern was basically dead, and Pattern with it. For awhile. Edited April 25, 2018 by Wandering Investor
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 4 hours ago, RShara said: The Thrill was pretty entrenched in Alethkar until recently. I thought the Vedens and the Alethi both experienced The Thrill. The Vedens were not unaware of it when the Veden Cival War occurred? The Vedens Dalinar spoke to were very aware of the edge it gave in battle.
RShara she/her Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: I thought the Vedens and the Alethi both experienced The Thrill. The Vedens were not unaware of it when the Veden Cival War occurred? The Vedens Dalinar spoke to were very aware of the edge it gave in battle. That was after it faded from Alethkar and the Shattered Plains. It seemed to affect both for a while, so would have been centered somewhere in that area. In WoK, Dalinar notices The Thrill fading, so I would guess that's when it started moving to Jah Keved.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, RShara said: That was after it faded from Alethkar and the Shattered Plains. It seemed to affect both for a while, so would have been centered somewhere in that area. In WoK, Dalinar notices The Thrill fading, so I would guess that's when it started moving to Jah Keved. True, but the soldiers knew what the Thrill felt like, and they also had the convention of not speaking of the Trill in public. They say to hell with convention and speak to Dalinar exactly about how strong the Thrill was this time.
Calderis he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: True, but the soldiers knew what the Thrill felt like, and they also had the convention of not speaking of the Trill in public. They say to hell with convention and speak to Dalinar exactly about how strong the Thrill was this time. Yes they do. And in that scene they also speak about it as if it were something unprecedented. How they all kept pushing and fighting beyond what anyone thought was sensible. In the same scene, Dalinar thinks to himself about how the thrill was fading earlier specifically because it was moving there.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Calderis said: Yes they do. And in that scene they also speak about it as if it were something unprecedented. How they all kept pushing and fighting beyond what anyone thought was sensible. In the same scene, Dalinar thinks to himself about how the thrill was fading earlier specifically because it was moving there. Exactly, it seemed like the Thrill was way stronger than usual, but the Vedens were fully aware of how the Thrill usually manifests.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 On a side-note: what do the death-rattles actually do for Odium? It seems like that Unmade isn't anywhere as useful as the others? I guess if the Rattles fully manifest, then people might be overcome by despair seeing their (true or false) wretched futures?
Calderis he/him Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 I'm of the opinion that the death rattles are a side effect. It's an information gatherer. In Kaza's interlude, the Dysian refuses to answer Kaza because... Quote I cannot speak,” the cook said, “even to sate a dying demand. There are those who could pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds. Sleep now, Soulcaster. This is the most merciful end I could give.” 4
dvoraen Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, teknopathetic said: On a side-note: what do the death-rattles actually do for Odium? It seems like that Unmade isn't anywhere as useful as the others? I guess if the Rattles fully manifest, then people might be overcome by despair seeing their (true or false) wretched futures? I think Death Rattles are a side-effect of what Moelach is really doing, myself. Exactly what that is, I'm not sure, but if I really wanted to gamble, it would be that Moelach helps guide Odium towards correctly predicting the future that absolutely will happen. Odium can see far ahead due to access to the Spiritual Realm (and other reasons), but one thing we know for a fact is that Vessels cannot always accurately predict the future that transpires. Cultivation couldn't see six(?) Rosharan years ahead and be sure that Dalinar would reject Odium, for example. Moelach could very well be a means of "planting signposts" indicating which way the temporal wind is blowing, so to speak. I think it's very clear from Oathbringer that Odium keeps an eye on the Unmade (part of the reason I don't trust Sja-anat's motives), and having an Unmade that can help give him an edge in future events seems pretty useful to me. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Cultivation is better at precognition than Odium (without Moelach), personally. I've also been wondering if one of the reasons the Unmade were created/unmade, is that they also serve as a method of preventing a Shard from reusing souls, similar to how the Fused and the Heralds are "recycled." Yelig-nar just consumes and absorbs someone completely, from the sound of it; it wouldn't do for someone that has used every Surge to suddenly be reborn and/or converted to the other side after that. Similarly, Moelach's touch "seeps into a soul," which sounds like having a Spiritual snack to me. Edited April 26, 2018 by dvoraen
Calderis he/him Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 4 hours ago, dvoraen said: but if I really wanted to gamble, it would be that Moelach helps guide Odium towards correctly predicting the future that absolutely will happen. I don't think there is an absolute future that will happen. If there is, Odium failed miserably at seeing it when it came to Thaylen Field. Future sight off all types in the Cosmere seems to be based on probability. I don't think anything is set until it happens, and when people have the ability to see the probable future they have the ability to change it.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Calderis said: I don't think there is an absolute future that will happen. If there is, Odium failed miserably at seeing it when it came to Thaylen Field. Future sight off all types in the Cosmere seems to be based on probability. I don't think anything is set until it happens, and when people have the ability to see the probable future they have the ability to change it. I fully disbelieve that Odium himself can grant future-sight, though his corruption of The Made may give him some access to oracles. Here is a quote from the diagram: "There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps deep into the soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction..." Moleach doesn't even have future-sight himself, but instead uses soul-fission to glean a random fact about the future. Can we assume Moelach The Made also had this ability? Odium doesn't even seem involved in this process. Heck, Moelech is barely involved. Are we impressed by this? Are we spooked by the unbelievable power of Moelach's future sight? I certainly am not. Moleach seems more "spooky" than "useful". Odium seems ... overly obsessed with proving that seeing the future is of Odium, and that Odium himself is super good at it. Secret History Spoilers Spoiler When Ruin made a big deal of proving to Kelsier that "he didnt matter", Kelsier knew that his own actions were incredibly important. Odium also goes to Mr.T and says "behold my super amazing works and tremble. I know the future and everything! But also, I had no idea about your diagram or what was in it. And also, I am shocked about Dalinar, and in general have no idea why my very obvious plan didn't work? Oh, and by the way, what was Adolin's brother's name? I cant seem to remember it? Do you think the unMade even like me?" Odium sucks at seeing the future. I mean, just look at his situation: he has been stuck in the Roshar System forever due to a wooops. He has lost who knows how many desolation. Even more interestingly, it seems like Odium is completely blind to others who can see the future (Renarin in the diagram, Kaladin using the Dor Orb, Cultivation and her pruning of Dalinar, and possibly Smart Mr.T's plan). I think Odium is bluffing about being able to see the future, and Odium uses The Death Rattles as either a corrupted way of seeing bits of the future, or as a big red-herring that convinces the masses not to utilize future-sight against their enemy. If Odium has bluffed his way into convincing Roshar to essentially never plan for the future, then Odium is more genius than Ruin. Edited April 26, 2018 by teknopathetic 5
Leuthie Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 21 hours ago, Weltall said: Of the ones we know, Ashtermarn feels the most likely and there's some interesting resonance with the voice Shallan hears (which appears to be this Unmade) addressing her by name, which is interesting since Ashtermarn is said to be one of the 'mindless' ones. This could be a hint that he's been observing Shallan for longer than just her trip to Kholinar. Or that some other force was providing that voice, but that's a whole other kettle of cremling claws. xD Just because its mindless doesn't mean it can't know who someone is through simple contact. Ashtermarn has to know you to get you to do the things you otherwise would stop yourself from doing. Why wouldn't it also know your name?
dvoraen Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Calderis said: I don't think there is an absolute future that will happen. If there is, Odium failed miserably at seeing it when it came to Thaylen Field. Future sight off all types in the Cosmere seems to be based on probability. I don't think anything is set until it happens, and when people have the ability to see the probable future they have the ability to change it. RE: Bolded. I know. That's why I said correctly predicting. It's been made very clear that even a Vessel gets it wrong for even short-term (near future) precognition, so there are other factors in play that undermine the ability to see the future.
teknopathetic he/him Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 3 hours ago, dvoraen said: RE: Bolded. I know. That's why I said correctly predicting. It's been made very clear that even a Vessel gets it wrong for even short-term (near future) precognition, so there are other factors in play that undermine the ability to see the future. Oh, i wasn't disagreeing. I meant more that I think Odium has been lying to the people of Roshar about how good his Shardic-foresight is in comparison to someone like Preservation who was EXCEPTIONALLY good at predicting Vin and Sazed.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 I don't think Ashertmarn or Nergaul are responsible. Ashertmarn was more into make people party too much, and Lins behavior isn't Thrill-like, as others have said. My bet would be the Black Fisher, for the same reason as OP suggested. What grabbed the Davar house was more of a deep, general sorrow. Not really like Ashertmarn or Nergaoul. The biggest problem with it being the BF is that I doubt Odium sent him just to ruin Shallans family life. He has to have some other task nearby as well. On 25 april 2018 at 9:21 PM, dvoraen said: Shallan is the only person who has had contact with Sja-anat This is not certain. Mraize knows of her will to defect, and Shallan didn't tell him. So she must have spoken to someone else.
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